Article posted:

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HARRISBURG, Pa. (WHTM) -
A house in the woods just outside Harrisburg is sort of hidden, just like the problems of the woman who lives there.

Linda Lattuca is 60 years old and has medical issues. She gets Social Security disability and works part-time, but makes too much to get food stamps or other assistance.

"I don't know where to go," Lattuca said. "Where do you go when you make $16,000 a year and you're making too much money?"

The system says she's above poverty, but huddled in a freezing house out of heating oil, with no phone, no computer, no cable television, plastic on the windows and blankets on the walls, Lattuca says otherwise.

"Poverty level is an empty refrigerator, the empty cupboard, the no oil," Lattuca said. "I drive a very old car. I definitely don't live beyond my means."

With equal parts panic and frustration, Lattuca wrote a letter to a man she voted for and who promised to help people in her situation.

"I told him 'you come here and walk in my shoes, pay my bills with the money I make, and I would guarantee you things would change,'" she said.

Lattuca didn't expect a response but got one. Barack Obama's name was on the envelope and a photograph of him was on the inside - along with a letter asking for a campaign contribution.

"I would rather of not gotten anything than this," Lattuca said. "This is a slap in the face."

Lattuca is now used to being slapped around by a system that doesn't know she exists. Because she's not getting assistance, she's not counted by the bureaucrats. She's hidden in a chilly house in the woods. We may not see her, but she's there.

"I am a human being," she said. "And I'm freezing."

abc27 News reached out to the White House for a comment but received no response.

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Tych2 posted:

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It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. These are the people that tax money SHOULD go to help.

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Tych2 posted:

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It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. These are the people that tax money SHOULD go to help.

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Szerek posted:

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Tych2 posted:

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It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. These are the people that tax money SHOULD go to help.

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I guess for this woman "Hope and Change" has translated to, "Hope we don't ask for the last of your Change."

In a follow up report, many people from the local community came through for her. She has food in her freezer now and oil in her tank.

It should also be noted that the Obama administration is trying to cover its tracks now too:

From a different article:

But help has now come. So has an explanation. A spokeswoman for Obama's Pennsylvania campaign calls it an unfortunate coincidence that the letters crossed in the mail. Many of you have told us you've also received Obama mailers.

An unfortunate coincidence? This is the kind of bullshit that really pisses me off. They are trying to pass it off as an "unfortunate coincidence" when we all know exactly what happened.

1) Woman writes a letter when at the end of her rope.
2) White house crony who gets paid $60,000+ a year to open mail all day long looks at the envelope.
3) Crony put address on campaign mailing
4) Mailing is mailed.
5) original letter thrown out, most likely unread
6) Woman at the end of her rope stares at disbelief as the greatest of us asks the smallest of us for FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE!
7) "Unfortunate coincidence" statement release to try to make them not look like complete assholes (doesn't really work)

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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It would be interesting to see where her money goes. She lives alone in a house out in the woods. Does she have a mortgage payment still? Is the house much bigger than it needs to be so she spends too much money on heating? SSDI should give her access to medicare, so health costs shouldn't be a huge part of things.

16,000 a year for a single person with health care in what is obviously a low cost of living area doesn't seem all that ridiculously poor to me.

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imaloon1 posted:

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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It would be interesting to see where her money goes. She lives alone in a house out in the woods. Does she have a mortgage payment still? Is the house much bigger than it needs to be so she spends too much money on heating? SSDI should give her access to medicare, so health costs shouldn't be a huge part of things.

16,000 a year for a single person with health care in what is obviously a low cost of living area doesn't seem all that ridiculously poor to me.

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Seriously?



Are you fucking kidding me with that shit?

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Government help may be part of the solution for her but part of the solution may also be moving into a smaller apartment that doesn't cost as much to heat. Or better yet, finding someone else to live in the same house with (or a new apartment) to share expenses.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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It says she has no tv, internet, phone. So basically no recurring subscriptions. SSDI should give her medicare. Although I don't know what the eligibility is when you're only getting partial disability (which she is if she's working part time, unless she's scamming the system).

Living on 16,000 a year obviously isn't going to be easy. But I'm also not sure it should mean you have no money for food or heating. Unless she's heating a huge old rickety house or something. In which case she might want to seriously consider moving to a small apartment.

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Szerek posted:

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Her 16,000 a year is just above minimum wage. I don't think you can reasonable expect anyone to survive very long on their own on minimum wage.

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Tych2 posted:

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Government help may be part of the solution for her but part of the solution may also be moving into a smaller apartment that doesn't cost as much to heat. Or better yet, finding someone else to live in the same house with (or a new apartment) to share expenses.

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heh you do realize I am going to save this quote for a later argument.

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Szerek posted:

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Her 16,000 a year is just above minimum wage. I don't think you can reasonable expect anyone to survive very long on their own on minimum wage.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Go for it. I am happy if you want to remind people in future to understand the situation before making emotional snap judgements.

P.S. Apartment rents in harrisburg are an average of 650/mo for a one bedroom or 750 for a two bedroom according to teh interwebz. That doesn't include utilities most likely but even so on 16,000 a year that doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility. She should be able to find a single for 550ish. That's 7k a year in rent. Leaving 9,000 for utilities, food, car insurance and medicare gap premiums. That doesn't seem totally unworkable. If she wanted to move into a two bedroom with another person like her they could both live pretty decently. Her house is probably worth nothing but if she could sell it for anything at all that would give her a certain cushion too.

I understand people have emotional attachments to their homes but I'm not sure the government should really be in the business of paying people to live in houses they can't afford to live in when much more reasonable options are available.

Of course the situation could be different from what I'm imagining. But we don't really know from the article. From what we do know it doesn't seem like she should necessarily be starving in a freezing house based on the amount of money she gets each year.

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Szerek posted:

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I guess for this woman "Hope and Change" has translated to, "Hope we don't ask for the last of your Change."

Arglebargle

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Ashmaele posted:

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Szerek posted:

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Her 16,000 a year is just above minimum wage. I don't think you can reasonable expect anyone to survive very long on their own on minimum wage.

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So why don't we raise the minimum wage?

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Taliesihne posted:

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Anyone care to explain how someone on a tight budget is going to come up with the `2k needed to move in to a cheaper apartment?

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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It doesn't cost 2k to move within the same town. We don't know much about her circumstances, but if the house is worth anything that is obviously a potential source of funds.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Taliesihne posted:

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Anyone care to explain how someone on a tight budget is going to come up with the `2k needed to move in to a cheaper apartment?

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It doesn't cost 2k to move within the same town. We don't know much about her circumstances, but if the house is worth anything that is obviously a potential source of funds.

FWIW, moving costs is totally the sort of thing the state or someone should be picking up to help someone out in a situation like this, assuming she couldn't afford to move on her own. It makes sense for everyone involved.

It's not about not looking beyond one's own experiences. Like I said in the very first post, we don't really know enough about her situation either way to know how much she really needs more assistance and how much it is a question of realigning her expenses better. Maybe she really does need more money from the gubmint. Maybe what she really needs even more than more money is someone to come in and help her figure out a better way to spend the money she has.

We just don't know. Assuming it is impossible to live on 15k/year is dumb. Millions of Americans manage it. Whether anyone should have to live on only 15k a year is a different question but it's not impossible.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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She's on disability and works part-time below the limit. Calling her working poor is questionable. Her federal taxes are probably negative.

I don't disagree that our tax policy is hard on the working poor. But this isn't really the best example of it.

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Cawlin posted:

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There are millions of Americans like her who work as much as they can, who can barely or not quite make ends meet, who are left out in the cold by our assistance programs for which they can't qualify. She's working poor, and she has been forsaken by our system in favor of those who don't work at all, and in favor of those who make 1,000 times her annual income.

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Cawlin posted:

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There are millions of Americans like her who work as much as they can, who can barely or not quite make ends meet, who are left out in the cold by our assistance programs for which they can't qualify. She's working poor, and she has been forsaken by our system in favor of those who don't work at all, and in favor of those who make 1,000 times her annual income.

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Szerek posted:

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First month, last month, security deposit + actual moving expenses = ~$2,000 You see, $550 * 3 = 1650, and it would costs about 300 to hire someone to move her stuff.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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There are millions of Americans like her who work as much as they can, who can barely or not quite make ends meet, who are left out in the cold by our assistance programs for which they can't qualify. She's working poor, and she has been forsaken by our system in favor of those who don't work at all, and in favor of those who make 1,000 times her annual income.

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She qualifies for a huge assistance program that makes up the majority of her income. She can't qualify for any others because she qualifies for that one. We don't know for sure but probably at least 66% of her income is a check from the gubmint that arrives each month. Along with what amounts to a check from the gubmint for health care.

If she was able to work but chose not to she would get much less than she gets right now. Almost all assistance programs for people who could work but are not working depend on having kids or having had a previous job that pays decently. If she wasn't working and wasn't on SSDI she would get food stamps, possibly housing assistance (although less than 25% of people who apply actually get it in most areas, and priority usually goes to people with kids), and medicaid, which is inferior to medicare which she gets through her SSDI.

Your rhetoric is emotionally appealing but extremely inaccurate. She is not a good example of a working poor person getting screwed because she works.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Szerek posted:

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First month, last month, security deposit + actual moving expenses = ~$2,000 You see, $550 * 3 = 1650, and it would costs about 300 to hire someone to move her stuff.

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Yeah ok, I misunderstood the claim. I don't know about the specifics of PA tenant law but I'll take your word for it on having to pay 3 months' rent up front to move in.

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Cawlin posted:

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Also, if she didn't work, she'd likely be able to qualify for section 8 or welfare housing, she'd have heat, hot water, and electricity, and hell I know of cases where welfare recipients have qualified to have vehicular expenses covered for them under the premise that they needed a vehicle to do job searching since they lived out here in central/western PA where personal transportation is all but mandatory.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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It would be interesting to see where her money goes. She lives alone in a house out in the woods. Does she have a mortgage payment still? Is the house much bigger than it needs to be so she spends too much money on heating? SSDI should give her access to medicare, so health costs shouldn't be a huge part of things.

16,000 a year for a single person with health care in what is obviously a low cost of living area doesn't seem all that ridiculously poor to me.

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Z-Elder posted:

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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It would be interesting to see where her money goes. She lives alone in a house out in the woods. Does she have a mortgage payment still? Is the house much bigger than it needs to be so she spends too much money on heating? SSDI should give her access to medicare, so health costs shouldn't be a huge part of things.

16,000 a year for a single person with health care in what is obviously a low cost of living area doesn't seem all that ridiculously poor to me.

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Yes there is something strange here. I could very easily live on $1350 a month if you are covering my medical.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Yeah. Although in practice you can just not pay the 20% co-pay and if you are really hard up no one is going to press you for it. And everything you said about healthcare costs is equally applicable whether or not you work.

But I totally agree that health care costs are by far the biggest threat to low income people. The woman in this example would be totally completely screwed if the gubmint wasn't picking up most of her healthcare tab.

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Cawlin posted:

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Or... it's possible that she just doesn't qualify for assistance.

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Cawlin posted:

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Considering that temperatures have gone below freezing overnight and for much of the day for the most of the days & nights over the past several weeks and she's without heat, she sounds pretty screwed.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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Or... it's possible that she just doesn't qualify for assistance.

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I don't see how based on those numbers. Even with the minimum SSDI benefit she's got to get at least 6k/year from that. So that leaves only 10k in income. That's well within qualification for section 8. PA actually sets aside special housing specifically for disabled people too.

But like I said, less than 25% of qualifying people get section 8. It is not the entitlement you seem to think it is.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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Considering that temperatures have gone below freezing overnight and for much of the day for the most of the days & nights over the past several weeks and she's without heat, she sounds pretty screwed.

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She's gotten food and heat apparently from neighbors.

Also she is eligible for a heating subsidy as well. Either she has not applied or it isn't enough but again I'd like to see where the money is going. Maybe she still has a mortgage? Or it's one of those old houses that costs 500/month to heat? I really don't know but it would really help to see the breakdown of her current expenses.

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Cawlin posted:

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Would you turn the same accountant's eye to generational non-working welfare recipients about how they spend their money?

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Cawlin posted:

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I am advocating for her to get housing assistance. I don't know why you think I'm denigrating this "entitlement".

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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Would you turn the same accountant's eye to generational non-working welfare recipients about how they spend their money?

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Sure. Especially if the claim is they arn't getting enough money to live on.

Although the thing to remember about them is there are children involved. No one gets welfare any more for just sitting around doing nothing unless they have kids.

Things get a lot more complicated when there are kids involved.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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I am advocating for her to get housing assistance. I don't know why you think I'm denigrating this "entitlement".

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You seem to still be misunderstanding. I am not using entitlement as a denigration. I am simply pointing out that it is not an entitlement. Less than 25% of qualifying people actually get section 8. You can be eligible and not get it. If you are eligible they put you on a list and call you back years later when a spot opens up.

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Cawlin posted:

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Actually, things get a lot simpler when there are kids involved. You qualify for all manner of assistance. You get a case worker who makes sure you are getting all the aid you're supposed to get.

If you're just old, and working part time, instead of sitting on your ass making more babies, you don't qualify for a third of the assistance, state employees don't help you figure out where/how to apply for assistance, and generally, everyone wants to forget about you and hope you die soon.

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Afio posted:

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This is something her daughter posted in the comments section:
She is looking for an inexpensive place to live a little closer to work to help save on gas money. If anyone knows of anything under $500 a month in the colonial park area would be beneficial to her. If you'd like to donate food wise, I guess you could drop them off at either her house or mine. (email for address) People should know that she has contacted every possible organization in our area for help. All telling her she makes to much a year. But she doesn't make enough to live on. For example to get help with oil, they told her she makes $288 too much. One organization I think she was $12 over who they are allowed to help.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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Actually, things get a lot simpler when there are kids involved. You qualify for all manner of assistance. You get a case worker who makes sure you are getting all the aid you're supposed to get.

If you're just old, and working part time, instead of sitting on your ass making more babies, you don't qualify for a third of the assistance, state employees don't help you figure out where/how to apply for assistance, and generally, everyone wants to forget about you and hope you die soon.

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Way to miss the point completely. Things are more complicated from the perspective of policy. You can't cut kids off because the parents are misbehaving because kids are kids.

In the final analysis you have much less leverage in the child welfare situation unless you're willing to let the kids suffer and typically we haven't been willing to let that happen.

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Szerek posted:

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Afio posted:

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This is something her daughter posted in the comments section:
She is looking for an inexpensive place to live a little closer to work to help save on gas money. If anyone knows of anything under $500 a month in the colonial park area would be beneficial to her. If you'd like to donate food wise, I guess you could drop them off at either her house or mine. (email for address) People should know that she has contacted every possible organization in our area for help. All telling her she makes to much a year. But she doesn't make enough to live on. For example to get help with oil, they told her she makes $288 too much. One organization I think she was $12 over who they are allowed to help.

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I grew up in the Greater Harrisburg Area. I live 5 miles as the crow flies from down town Harrisburg. I know the area. This woman will be hard pressed to find a $500 apartment in the Colonial Park area, or even an efficiency. The Colonial Park area of Harrisburg is a Middle to Upper Middle class area. The other surrounding areas are Union Deposit and Linglestown and they are basically the same as Colonial Park. She could move to the Walnut St area of Harrisburg which isn't far from Colonial Park but that is a not-so-nice part of the 'Burg.

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Cawlin posted:

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The point is that policy is fubar.

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Cawlin posted:

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Oh no Szerek, those internet cost of living tables are totally accurate! Those are the numbers that employers base salaries on too in the region, if they were inaccurate, it would mean a whole host of issues were afoot... they can't possibly be inaccurate!

Anyway... I've spent a lot of time near Harrisburg myself, lived in Elizabethtown for a number of years, had a friend who lived directly IN Harrisburg for a few years... All things considered, I think that the area just east of Harrisburg (Lancaster county) is probably some of the nicest area to live in the entire state... but I digress.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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The point is that policy is fubar.

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Ok. If you want to advocate changing the welfare laws so the kids starve if their parents are being irreponsible, go for it I guess. I doubt you will have much luck because we tend to have a soft spot for kids and think they shouldn't be punished for stuff their parents do.

You could also take the kids away if the parents can't afford to feed them without gubmint welfare but that hasn't worked out too well in the past either. It usually ends up costing just as much and creating a whole new set of problems too.

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Szerek posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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Oh no Szerek, those internet cost of living tables are totally accurate! Those are the numbers that employers base salaries on too in the region, if they were inaccurate, it would mean a whole host of issues were afoot... they can't possibly be inaccurate!

Anyway... I've spent a lot of time near Harrisburg myself, lived in Elizabethtown for a number of years, had a friend who lived directly IN Harrisburg for a few years... All things considered, I think that the area just east of Harrisburg (Lancaster county) is probably some of the nicest area to live in the entire state... but I digress.

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I'm always looking at the IT jobs in there area. Here are some beauts.

http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobDetails.aspx?Job_DID=J8F3MY5XMQMJ377H64G&sc_cmp2=10_JobMat_JobDet&IPATH=JEHOMP&SiteID=cb_em ailrec&APath=1.8.0.0.0&je=myrec&HostID=US

"A 4 year technical degree with 3 years relevant experience is highly desirable, but equivalent experience will be considered"

Base Pay : $25,000 - $40,000 /Year


http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobDetails.aspx?Job_DID=J8C73K787NMQHPVJZBJ&sc_cmp2=10_JobMat_JobDet&IPATH=JEHOMP&SiteID=cb_em ailrec&APath=1.8.0.0.0&je=myrec&HostID=US

Company looking for an MCSD or MCAD offering Base Pay : $37,500 - $55,000 /Year

The economy here is booming with high paying tech jobs!

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Cawlin posted:

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Why are there no partial assistance programs for her heating costs - why is it all or none?

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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Why are there no partial assistance programs for her heating costs - why is it all or none?

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Well, it's never "all." And it probably isn't "none" either, although I don't know for sure. I suspect what is going on is she was told she makes 300 too much to get any assistance, not that you either get a check for 300 or a check for zero. But like I said I don't know for sure.

Also heating subsidies are a difficult issue themselves because they have bad effects in the long run even though they help individuals in certain circumstances in the short term.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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If you want to continue with your crusade to take kids away from their parents go ahead but like I said I think you will find little success. Americans have not shown a lot of appetite for the state taking people's kids away from them because they're poor.

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Cawlin posted:

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But heating subsidies are OK for other families on welfare just not this one?

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Derasio posted:

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This situation is mirrored here in the UK, I used a know a lady in her early 40's who worked part time as a deputy manager of a retail store, she worked 20 hours a week and was good at her job. They repeatedly offered her promotions to go full time as a manager but as a single parent living in council housing earning any more than she currently did would make her ineligable for almost all of the goverment funds she was currently recieving.

It worked out that financially by working full time in a better job she would have ended up around £200 a month poorer. She wanted to work more and was capable of doing so, but could not find a way to make it financially viable, that should not be allowed to happen.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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But heating subsidies are OK for other families on welfare just not this one?

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Where did you get that one from? They are problematic in general because what they tend to result in in real terms is people not fixing their energy usage to be more efficient. Part of the reason we have moved away for paying "all" heating costs is the realization that that is counterproductive. Now typically the heating subsidy is well less than the total heating costs, with the idea being you encourage people to use energy more efficiently that way.

The rest of your most is just /wghaaarghl. You say this is an example of working poor getting trashed but she works no more than most people you rant about work. She is closer to non-working poor than working poor. There are very few welfare recipients people who simply don't work at all any more. It is much more common to see people like this woman who work part-time and collect large sums from benefit programs of various sorts to supplement that income.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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I don't get why you keep going on about black babies.

Your basic argument that non-working poor have it easy and working poor have it hard is both largely inaccurate and not illustrated by this example. This woman is closer to what you term non-working poor than working poor. There really is almost no such thing as a poor person who doesn't work at all any more, unless they're on 100% disability. The people you term non-working poor are much more likely to be about like this woman - part-time workers who depend on government largesse to get by.

The real difference in the system is not between workers who don't depend on handouts and "non-workers" (i.e. people who work but depend more on handouts than working income). The real difference in the sysyem is that "non-workers" with kids get a much better deal than either "non-workers" without kids OR working poor, because we think kids shouldn't generally be punished for who their parents are.

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Cawlin posted:

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There are millions of Americans like her who work as much as they can, who can barely or not quite make ends meet, who are left out in the cold by our assistance programs for which they can't qualify. She's working poor, and she has been forsaken by our system in favor of those who don't work at all, and in favor of those who make 1,000 times her annual income.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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The take away is that I'd want to know more about the actual facts of her situation before knowing if she needs more money, needs a plan to spend money better, or both.

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Yukishiro1's Mom posted:

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I'm sure glad I have that 401K!

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