Dwaveran
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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/us/04felony.html?pagewanted=1
Guy lends his car to his friends. Friends kill people. Guy who lends the car gets life in prison.
Yes i saw this on reddit.
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Natoli
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And this is why I don't let anyone drive my car...
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regulator_cracka
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He is probably black<.>
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-Mithan-
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Its wrong. Period.
However, most people have no clue what Justice is (and never have had a clue).
Just because property is used in a crime doesn't mean the owner of that property is responsible.
Of course, the justice system is not based on common sense and most people don't care abuse in justice until it happens to them, prefering to stick their heads up their ass and pretend that everybody going to jail "Deserved it" or "if they were not doing anything wrong, they wouldn't have been in the spot light anyways".
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Maleraka
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Well, once the <1% of readers get past the headline, you can see why they made him an accomplice. I don't agree with the life sentence, but he made statements that made him an accomplice in the crime.
I love how they make everything doubtful in the story too. Doesn't every criminal throw in non-essential information to make their crime not look so bad? Something like "I was hungover, I didn't know they'd kill someone"
NY TImes posted:
Mr. Holle, who had given the police a series of statements in which he seemed to admit knowing about the burglary, was convicted of first-degree murder. He is serving a sentence of life without the possibility of parole at the Wakulla Correctional Institution here, 20 miles southwest of Tallahassee.
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Dwaveran
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I think the part that screwed him was that he knew they were committing a crime.
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Lyndrek
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Dwaveran posted:
I think the part that screwed him was that he knew they were committing a crime.
yep if he knew they were committing a crime and he let them use his property then he is aiding and abetting, making him just as responsible.
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JD_HOGG
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If you're part of the conspiracy to commit one of the MRS BAKER crimes you should know that a death could likely occur, and when it does, you are on the hook for felony murder.
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Webscar
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If he knew they were using it to go rob someone.. sorry to say, but he is an accomplice. What do you want them to do? Ignore that and set a precedence?
"Ohhh, you only knew about the Robery, not the Killing? Okay then, this part of the law doesn't apply to you"
If his Lawyer had proven he wasn't an accomplice, he'd be free.
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FunTak
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"Mr. Holle, who had given the police a series of statements in which he seemed to admit knowing about the burglary, was convicted of first-degree murder."
Yeap. 100% guilty and has no defense. You knew they were going to use your car to commit a crime, things got hairy as they do when you try to steal a safe from a ****ing drug dealer, people got killed. You provided their transportation to the scene with knowledge of their intentions. If they convinced you they were getting ice cream, maybe.
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Lanacan
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Lyndrek posted:
Dwaveran posted:
I think the part that screwed him was that he knew they were committing a crime.
yep if he knew they were committing a crime and he let them use his property then he is aiding and abetting, making him just as responsible.
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Ptilk
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Well first of all, it's Florida. Nuff said really but....
It's stupidity like this that results in the USA having more prisoners per capita than any other country on earth. It's fricken insane. Fascists dictators and insane theocratic bastards ruling in 3rd world crap holes don't throw as many of their citizens into jail as we do, and most of them have lower crime rates to boot. Nothing like sending 1 in 10 young men to prison for something ridiculous and petty.....so they can learn how to be real criminals from the ones that are already there.
Certainly didn't help matters that he is black. Only about 15% of Florida residents are black, but about 55% of it's inmates are. There is no justice in the US, only a very sick and twisted injustice system.
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Ptilk
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So, a friend of yours tells you he is going to steal apples from an old mans tree. He can't climb the tree though because his pants keep falling down, he needs a belt. You lend him yours, off he goes to climb the tree and get those apples. While in the tree, he spots a woman showering thru the window of the house next door, jumps in, rapes her, dismembers her, and then sets fire to the house, burning to death the 17 handicapped orphans the woman was taking care of.
You lent him your belt, so you are as guilty as he is.
Seriously?
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aon_mixed
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Ptilk posted:
Certainly didn't help matters that he is black. Only about 15% of Florida residents are black, but about 55% of it's inmates are. There is no justice in the US, only a very sick and twisted injustice system.
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Hawkson
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That's the wonder of the felony murder rule. If your accomplice in a crime(here, the guy who killed the people while burglarizing[a felony burglary in this case]) kills someone while committing that crime, you can be guilty of that murder as well, because you knew, or should have known that it could happen.
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Rhodoman
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And still people just can't seem to behave.
Rho
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JD_HOGG
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Ptilk posted:
Well first of all, it's Florida. Nuff said really but....
It's stupidity like this that results in the USA having more prisoners per capita than any other country on earth. It's fricken insane. Fascists dictators and insane theocratic bastards ruling in 3rd world crap holes don't throw as many of their citizens into jail as we do, and most of them have lower crime rates to boot. Nothing like sending 1 in 10 young men to prison for something ridiculous and petty.....so they can learn how to be real criminals from the ones that are already there.
Certainly didn't help matters that he is black. Only about 15% of Florida residents are black, but about 55% of it's inmates are. There is no justice in the US, only a very sick and twisted injustice system.
You mean it's the United States. Every state has a felony murder statute.
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JD_HOGG
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Ptilk posted:
So, a friend of yours tells you he is going to steal apples from an old mans tree. He can't climb the tree though because his pants keep falling down, he needs a belt. You lend him yours, off he goes to climb the tree and get those apples. While in the tree, he spots a woman showering thru the window of the house next door, jumps in, rapes her, dismembers her, and then sets fire to the house, burning to death the 17 handicapped orphans the woman was taking care of.
You lent him your belt, so you are as guilty as he is.
Seriously?
No because stealing an apple is not Mayhem, Robbery, Sodomy, Burglary, Arson, Kidnapping, Escape, or Rape.
If he tells you he needs a belt to tie a woman up and rape her, and you nod, hand him your belt and off he goes to rape and she dies in the commission of the crime, then you have felony murder.
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JD_HOGG
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And LOL @ sodomy being generally considered one of the crimes that can lead to felony murder.
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JD_HOGG
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Well, here's what California says is Mayhem.
Every person who unlawfully and maliciously deprives a human
being of a member of his body, or disables, disfigures, or renders it
useless, or cuts or disables the tongue, or puts out an eye, or
slits the nose, ear, or lip, is guilty of mayhem.
Not much of a stretch to see that could lead to a death.
Not so sure how fudge packing or getting blowies leads to death though. Maybe a heart attack?
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JD_HOGG
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jolineyqnq posted:
sorry ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~i have no idea now let me think
3 posts...got perma-banned?
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Gaevren
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It's a very bad law.
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Hawkson
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Nailer2357 posted:
Hawkson posted:
That's the wonder of the felony murder rule. If your accomplice in a crime(here, the guy who killed the people while burglarizing[a felony burglary in this case]) kills someone while committing that crime, you can be guilty of that murder as well, because you knew, or should have known that it could happen.
I recall my Crim. Law professor questioning the felony murder rule pretty heavily. As you indicated, it essentially applies a negligence standard to one of our most serious crimes.
My Crim. Law professor was somewhat against it as well, but he also discussed the need for it. It is supposed to help deter people from assisting criminals. Unfortunately, it's difficult for it to act as a deterrent unless people know about it. And - the only way for people to know about it, is if it is used and publicized.
I agree that it may not seem fair, with the negligence standard that is applied. But I'm not certain of a better replacement.
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Ashmaele
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The felony murder rule will never be abolished in the US, because any politician who even suggests it will be labeled "soft on crime" and summarily heaved from office the next election.
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TickyAtack
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Seems over punished.
He should be charged with something, but he wasn't at the crime seen, and did not beat some girl's skull in.
He gave them transportation to get to the crime seen, that should be what he's responsible for, and even then they probably would've made it there somehow anyway, because it was only a mile and a half away.
If they took a bus and said they were going to do a burglary would the bus driver need to be convicted of murder?
What they did when they get there is their responsibility. Not his.
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Cawlin
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Committing an armed robbery of a dwelling has a very good (or at the very last, a pretty reasonable) chance of becoming an assault or murder. Knowingly assisting someone in an armed robbery means you are an accomplice.
There is a considerable difference between climbing someone's apple tree OUTSIDE their dwelling and breaking INTO their dwelling to steal their apples.
I can understand the ruling but I would have thought it would have been appropriate for the court to be lenient, but to still convict the guy if he knew the folks he loaned his car were going to commit a robbery with it. Obviously it hinges on him knowing that they were going to commit a robbery specifically.
How about this one:
A kid is driving friends around from a party to another - they are all college students or the age of college students - ~20, 21, 22 - whole lives ahead of them. They get into the car. The driver tells everyone to buckle up - this is corroborated by all vehicle occupants after the fact btw. One of his passengers refuses. Also corroborated by all vehicle occupants. The guy keeps on driving is *just* over legal limit for being DUI. They have an accident at ~25 MPH. Passenger who refused to buckle up after being asked to gets killed in a freak twist of circumstance - head smacked against the door frame - seizure, death ensues. All other passengers were perfectly fine from accident because they were wearing seatbelts. Investigation is as positive as it can ever be that if the victim had worn a seatbelt, he'd have been only minimally injured, IF AT ALL. Other vehicle with which they collided was damaged, but nobody in it was hurt at all.
Driver gets convicted of DUI related manslaughter and does serious hard time.
Rationale:
1) Driver was DUI
2) Driver carried passenger not wearing seatbelt (this is the driver's responsibility in some states and if they had been pulled over for a seatbelt violation, driver would have been ticketed, not passenger).
3) Driver's DUI accident resulted in the death of a passenger and driver was irresponsible for not insisting on the seatbelt, on top of his irresponsibly driving drunk.
This is not a made up case btw. I know a person who served on the jury for this case.
Oh and the guy who was convicted was not black. This occurred in the greater Philadelphia metropolitan area.
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Ah-Schoo
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I'll give it 2 Limberger on a scale of Red to Bananaphone.
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JD_HOGG
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Back in my day, law professors didn't criticize the laws, the respected them and that was good enough for us. Law students these days. 
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