ineenia posted:

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Most people don't believe a fertilized egg equals a baby.I have never met a pro-choicer that believed a fertilized egg equals a baby.The real debate is when does a mass of genetic goo become a human child.For me it doesn't become human until it experiences conscious thought which is quite awhile after conception but also well before birth.What I am basically saying is that the argument isn't when is it ok to kill a baby ,it is when does a pregnant woman stops being one person and starts to be two people.

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eodoll posted:

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I think its more complex than that since killing a pregnant woman counts as a double homicide.

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eodoll posted:

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But if its not a living person then what is it that was killed?

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Manegarm posted:

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That looks like life to me, and if male Christians and other idiots wants too preserve life and ban abortion they will also have to inact laws that makes masturbation for men illegal.

But that will never happen BECAUSE THAT WOULD INFRINGE ON THE FREEDOMS OF MEN..

all of this religious social conservative bullshit is just patriarchal misogyny, if the roles were reversed Abortion would not even be a issue.

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Elkad posted:

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LOL. Mangy with the masturbation argument again.

If you are going to use that argument, then a woman who allowed an egg to leave her body without being fertilized would be guilty of the same crime. Sex would be mandatory every month for every fertile woman.

So we'd be jailing 9yr olds for not getting knocked up.



Nobody has ever seriously proposed any limit earlier than conception/fertilization. And at some point the risk to the mother's health becomes a triage issue, where the doctor has to save one or the other.

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Kathea posted:

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Manegarm posted:

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That looks like life to me, and if male Christians and other idiots wants too preserve life and ban abortion they will also have to inact laws that makes masturbation for men illegal.

But that will never happen BECAUSE THAT WOULD INFRINGE ON THE FREEDOMS OF MEN..

all of this religious social conservative bullshit is just patriarchal misogyny, if the roles were reversed Abortion would not even be a issue.

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srsly

If men were the ones carrying the little parasites around for nine months, abortion would be legal, free and clear. No questions asked.

It's too bad we're not seahorses.

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eodoll posted:

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It makes no sense.. It shouldnt be double homcide. Maybe taking a womans choice away, but then women who say theyre on the pill but arent should be imprisoned too for taking the mans choice away.

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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for me it hinges on your christian definition of life.

there is no soul people.

untill the child can survive on its own, outside of the womb it is a parasite and can be killed just like a cockroach would be.

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Elkad posted:

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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for me it hinges on your christian definition of life.

there is no soul people.

untill the child can survive on its own, outside of the womb it is a parasite and can be killed just like a cockroach would be.

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So we can kill it until it can provide it's own food/shelter. Got it. The eastern practice of leaving girl babies out in the cold be eaten by wild dogs is just an abortion.

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eodoll posted:

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She is carrying a life that isnt 100% hers.. It took two seperate humans to make it.
The choice belongs to two people.
I think abortion should only be allowed by choice in the first 4 months, after that its health of the mother or unborn child only that should allow an abortion.

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eodoll posted:

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I disagree with you-

She is carrying a life that isnt 100% hers.. It took two seperate humans to make it.

The choice belongs to two people.

I think abortion should only be allowed by choice in the first 4 months, after that its health of the mother or unborn child only that should allow an abortion.

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Moe_Nox posted:

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eodoll posted:

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She is carrying a life that isnt 100% hers.. It took two seperate humans to make it.
The choice belongs to two people.
I think abortion should only be allowed by choice in the first 4 months, after that its health of the mother or unborn child only that should allow an abortion.

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Abso-friggin-lutely. Men have registered their nuts at the door on this issue, mostly.

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Elkad posted:

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So we can kill it until it can provide it's own food/shelter. Got it. The eastern practice of leaving girl babies out in the cold be eaten by wild dogs is just an abortion.

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Manegarm posted:

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eodoll posted:

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I think its more complex than that since killing a pregnant woman counts as a double homicide.

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She has the right to decide the fate of the embryo not anyone else..

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Moe_Nox posted:

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Quoting the law is irrelevant as laws can be changed, and they have in the past. Thats the entire point of any discussion is to find what the best policy is.
Before Roe vs Wade the pregnancy rights were too hard against women. They swung the other way, and now they are too hard against the man.

If you deprive the man of any decision over a pregnancy than you have to exempt him from any obligation concerning it.
Manegarm, with everything you post about your love life, you are gonna get severely burnt one day and your own positions are gonna screw you hard.

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Manegarm posted:

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I always use a condom and I only have sex with women whom I have know for months or years, I do not do one night stands, casual sex sucks.. Good sex derives from intimacy and knowing your partner.

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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You don't get it, dur dur. There are existing laws on the books that state if you murder a pregnant woman you are guilty of killing two people. It is hypocritical to have this law on the books and allow abortion in the 2nd or third trimester.

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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In addition, your "masturbation" argument is stupid and uneducated. You don't even know the difference between a haploid cell (eggs or sperm cells for example) and the zygocyte which is the cell that is the fusion of these two haploids. It is only this new, distinctive, and special cell that is the foundation of what becomes a person and the universe will never see this exact same cell again...this is why this particular cell is considered by many to be worthy of protecting. So you can stop with the retarded, masturbation is murder nonsense. This is not a new argument, Hippocrates and the Pythagoreans both believed that this zygocyte conception stage is when the soul entered. Hinduism also teaches this.

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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However, I would disagree the zygocyte aka zygote is a person, but it is true that it is special as a potential person. Zygotes and even embryos get naturally aborted ALL the time, about 50% of the time actually because of chromosomal abnormalities or errors. Some believe that personhood occurs after implantation of the embryo into the uterus. Others think that the initial fertilization to implantation is not true because the embryo can split into twins, triplets, etc around day 3-14 after fertilization, some argue that an early embryo cannot be a person because if every person is an individual, one cannot be divided from oneself. Some scientists will not work on an embryo experimental purposes after the neural groove has formed. This occurs around day 23. Brain waves are first detected at day 53 post ovulation. St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine of Hippo believed that the soul entered in around day 40 post conception, which is pretty close to when brain activity starts.. just something to think about, but it is not as clear cut as you might think. I am pro-life and I am for contraception, the day after pill, PLAN B, and elective abortion up to a month post fertilization. This is based on the scientific fact that brain activity starts around day 53. It is this brain activity that represents the formation of what makes us a person....

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Moe_Nox posted:

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Manny one day one of those women will decide its time to have a kid, will stop taking the pill, and get you to not use a condom for the night.
9 months later little Manny will pop out, you will be dad, and the courts will force you to pay half your earnings for the next 18 years.

As far as testing for paternity, why not? How is this process more traumatic physically or emotionally for a woman than the actual abortion procedure?
You pro choicers want to give full rights to the woman but have trouble justifying it.

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eodoll posted:

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It's just a two faced legal line to say murdering a pregnant woman is a double homicide (killed 2 serpate people) but a woman aborting her fetus counts as non-murder.. however if she kills the baby after it's born it counts as murder.

That's a two faced policy.

I'm all for truth - killing a pregnant woman needs to count as homicide (not double homicide) - otherwise our laws are two faced and BS.

Furthermore, the man has a right to the baby - I dont give a crap whose body it is.

Let's go into the line of surrogate's - if a woman is a surrogate and aborts by her own will then she is open to litigation. Whose body is it then?

We have all kinds of stupid laws and policies here and that's why people can't get over the abortion question.

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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Manegarm posted:

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I always use a condom and I only have sex with women whom I have know for months or years, I do not do one night stands, casual sex sucks.. Good sex derives from intimacy and knowing your partner.

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So do you sit in a van by the primary schools for a few months to years getting to know the 12 and 13 year olds until they are ready for "legal love"?

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Bowlartz posted:

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The "real" Pro-Choicers support abortion up to the moment the baby is born with zero restrictions.

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Moe_Nox posted:

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How much knowledge do I have about abortions? None. Are you claiming to have more?
You have been pussified into giving the woman full rights on your child.
This has zero to do with what cartoon characterization you would like to make about conservative views, it has to do with the rights of mother/father.

When women can get pregnant on their own, I will concede any right to have rights.
Any pregnancy is due to the sperm stolen from the poor male. Stolen I say!

As for the women you date, if you don't think that some long term sex buddy will also have the impulses to have a kid just like any other woman, you will learn soon enough.
As your lawyers won't have any success against the standing laws. Good luck, your days as a childless bachelor with cash are coming to an end.

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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Point to consciousness on an anatomical chart Mammogram, just because yours barely qualifies does not mean there is not such a thing.

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Tych2 posted:

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Man there is a reason why I avoid talking about this topic with people I like.

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Manegarm posted:

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Tych2 posted:

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Man there is a reason why I avoid talking about this topic with people I like.

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You seem afraid to discuss any subject that is more controversial then the weather with folks you like.

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Manegarm posted:

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You're the idiot claiming to know the emotional and physical pain of abortion.. I never made such claims.

I have the same rights as her to my child when it's born, until then she makes the rules.. It's simple logic she is taking all the responsibility, the pain, the risks and the discomfort you're standing on the side line crying about your little rights being trampled on, oh how dares she! Not letting you impose your will upon her without having to share the risks, the pain and the discomfort it's so unfair.

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Moe_Nox posted:

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You claimed that a paternity test would be unfairly invasive. I asked if it would be any more invasive than having the actual abortion.
If you take that as me claiming to know what pain an abortion causes, your english sucks.

Moe_nox posted:

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As far as testing for paternity, why not? How is this process more traumatic physically or emotionally for a woman than the actual abortion procedure?

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You don't want the man to impose any will on the woman, but you are fine with the woman imposing any will she wants on the fetus.
If you don't believe its a human, fine. You'd be wrong, but fine, its still a living thing.
If you support any rights at all for pets, animals, etc that give more rights to those living things than you do to a human fetus, you have been morally brainwashed.

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Tych2 posted:

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Manegarm posted:

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Tych2 posted:

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Man there is a reason why I avoid talking about this topic with people I like.

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You seem afraid to discuss any subject that is more controversial then the weather with folks you like.

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Well of course you are going to assume that. Either black or white with you. There are a lot of subjects I talk about with people I care about. Ones that are debatable. Abortion and religion aren't two of them. I am not going to change my stances on either of them. They all know my stances on both subjects. No need to beat people I like over the head with it.

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Moe_Nox posted:

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Then set the record straight Sobaki. When do you think is the latest week abortions should be permitted?

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Tych2 posted:

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heh hardly Manegarm.

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Cawlin posted:

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Abortion is like gun control - it's never really off the agenda.

For the Right, abortion will always be a target of opportunity, just like for the Left, gun control is always a target of opportunity.

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cabbyman posted:

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Smash an eagle egg, go to jail.
Kill your baby, go on Oprah.

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Manegarm posted:

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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Point to consciousness on an anatomical chart Mammogram, just because yours barely qualifies does not mean there is not such a thing.

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So you're saying you can't point the soul on a anatomical chart? Because it simply can't be located? Would a shamanistic rite, tarot cards or a voodoo doll maybe aid you? You seem very certain that it exists.

Oh how delightfully spiteful you are

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SoBaKi posted:

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Moe_Nox posted:

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Then set the record straight Sobaki. When do you think is the latest week abortions should be permitted?

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First trimester, tops. if you've not been able to make a decision by then, have the kid.

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Kathea posted:

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Manegarm posted:

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That looks like life to me, and if male Christians and other idiots wants too preserve life and ban abortion they will also have to inact laws that makes masturbation for men illegal.

But that will never happen BECAUSE THAT WOULD INFRINGE ON THE FREEDOMS OF MEN..

all of this religious social conservative bullshit is just patriarchal misogyny, if the roles were reversed Abortion would not even be a issue.

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srsly

If men were the ones carrying the little parasites around for nine months, abortion would be legal, free and clear. No questions asked.

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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Since you are pretty ignorant about philosophy and human anatomy I will help you again. The soul is a descriptive term for consciousness "soul" can function as a synonym for spirit, mind or self; in scientific works, in particular often consider soul as a synonym for mind. Allow me to point on an anatomical chart where it is located.

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If men were the ones carrying the little parasites around for nine months, abortion would be legal, free and clear. No questions asked.

Scarne posted:

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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Since you are pretty ignorant about philosophy and human anatomy I will help you again. The soul is a descriptive term for consciousness "soul" can function as a synonym for spirit, mind or self; in scientific works, in particular often consider soul as a synonym for mind. Allow me to point on an anatomical chart where it is located.

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If that is the soul, then the soul dies with the body and there is no afterlife.

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Republicans posted:

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Children should die in wars not wombs!!!!

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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SoBaKi posted:

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Moe_Nox posted:

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Then set the record straight Sobaki. When do you think is the latest week abortions should be permitted?

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First trimester, tops. if you've not been able to make a decision by then, have the kid.

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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Manegarm posted:

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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Point to consciousness on an anatomical chart Mammogram, just because yours barely qualifies does not mean there is not such a thing.

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So you're saying you can't point the soul on a anatomical chart? Because it simply can't be located? Would a shamanistic rite, tarot cards or a voodoo doll maybe aid you? You seem very certain that it exists.

Oh how delightfully spiteful you are

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Since you are pretty ignorant about philosophy and human anatomy I will help you again. The soul is a descriptive term for consciousness "soul" can function as a synonym for spirit, mind or self; in scientific works, in particular often consider soul as a synonym for mind. Allow me to point on an anatomical chart where it is located.




dumb ass!

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Groucho48 posted:

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If men were the ones carrying the little parasites around for nine months, abortion would be legal, free and clear. No questions asked.

As a corollary, if altar boys could get pregnant, the Catholic Bishops would put birth control in the communion wafers.

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Moe_Nox posted:

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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SoBaKi posted:

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[quote=Moe_Nox]Then set the record straight Sobaki. When do you think is the latest week abortions should be permitted?

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First trimester, tops. if you've not been able to make a decision by then, have the kid.

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Manegarm posted:

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That was not what you were referring too when talking about Aquinas, if so you would have made clear in your second post that you were in fact not talking about magic but actual physiology.

No medical journal out there or school would accept you using such a simplistic word to describe the complicated functions of our mind. They would also sneer at your attempt to insert your pseudo-scientific religious blather to have anything to do with the workings of the mind..

You're as usual doing your mental gymnastics to get your Harry Potter fantasy to fit into reality followed by your usual tirade of boring semantics.. I asked you to point out this soul to me, and you knew damn well what I meant by it and since you can't that leaves you high and dry, fail more at life Snarfie.

Dumbass.

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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I am sorry you don't understand science, philosophy, or even religion. I clearly meant consciousness, which is evidenced by brain activity. Anything beyond that, YOU extrapolated and inferred. Some do call the mind the soul, there is nothing "harry potterish" about that, I suppose you like to use that euphemism about philosophical or theological principles you clearly do not understand. However the mind-body issue is not new and can never be settled by scientific observation and philosophers will continue the debate for the next thousand years. What time you have left in your shallow existence will continue to be spent in awe of shiny objects and likening philosophical issues to young adult fantasy literature.

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Snarfs posted:

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St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine of Hippo believed that the soul entered in around day 40 post conception

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Manegarm posted:

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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I am sorry you don't understand science, philosophy, or even religion. I clearly meant consciousness, which is evidenced by brain activity. Anything beyond that, YOU extrapolated and inferred. Some do call the mind the soul, there is nothing "harry potterish" about that, I suppose you like to use that euphemism about philosophical or theological principles you clearly do not understand. However the mind-body issue is not new and can never be settled by scientific observation and philosophers will continue the debate for the next thousand years. What time you have left in your shallow existence will continue to be spent in awe of shiny objects and likening philosophical issues to young adult fantasy literature.

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In a medical discussion? I bet the The New England Journal of Medicine uses the word Soul all the time when talking about matters of the mind and brain.

Dude, save your defensive posturing your semantics and your boorish behaviour.

Snarfs posted:

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St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine of Hippo believed that the soul entered in around day 40 post conception

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You're the one who brought religious idiocy into this thread, I merely asked you to point out this soul that Aquinas was talking about, you could not and then you had to defend yourself in this shoddy butthurt fashion, if I wanted to know more about the mind, the brain and consciousness I would have asked specifically about that..

I do not use the term soul to describe the mind, same as I don't feel a need to use Harry Potter magic to explain life or reality. Your appeal to authority and education arguments are inept and invalid.

Those learned philosophers of yours will be harking about the same subjects then as they are doing now, without having come to any conclusions.. Jesus won't come, nor will Ganesh or Thor. Science however will go on actually solving mysteries instead of shrouding it in magic and fanciful notions of super-human beings that there is no proof of.

What I have to say to all the Monks, philosophers and priests and other lazy wastes of air; get a real job.

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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You are so ignorant it is amazing. Yes the New England Journal of Medicine does often use the word soul when speaking of the mind, since you probably don't regularly read the journal as I do, here is quick counterpoint to your assertion that shows they do use the word soul: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200407013510124
and also http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200003233421218

All I did was go through a quick summary of the evidence science shows for when personhood starts and some philosophers propositions that coincide with different moments in the embryological timeline. It is hardly religious,I first mentioned Hippocrates for crying out loud. You seem to beeline towards key words and then extrapolate your idiotic assumptions from there. The fact that you think that philosophers haven't or can't speak to the most important questions that science can't touch demonstrates your astounding ignorance. It's no wonder you live for hedonism. The shallow end of the pool is all you can handle!

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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You apparently didnt read the NEJM's reviews of those books, the reviewers from the NEJM used it many times. No matter here is some source material from medline/pubmed, all medical and science journals.

Material translations in the Cartesian brain. Stud Hist Philos Biol Biomed Sci. 2012 Mar;43(1):244-55. Epub 2011 Nov 29.

From the abstract: "This article reconsiders the theoretical obligations placed on the pineal gland as the site of the soul-body union, and looks at how the gland was consequently forced to adopt a very precarious ontological status."

Left atrial function predicts heart failure hospitalization in subjects with preserved ejection fraction and coronary heart disease longitudinal data from the heart and soul study. J Am Coll Cardiol. 2012 Feb 14;59(7):673-80

The price of your soul: neural evidence for the non-utilitarian representation of sacred values. Philos Trans R Soc Lond B Biol Sci. 2012 Mar 5;367(1589):754-62.

etc etc

Science can not comment on qualia, it can't comment on counter-factuals, it can't comment on positive claims (what should happen), it can't comment on aesthetic claims, science can't comment on fictional worlds, science can't comment on empirically identical claims, etc.

Whether you want to admit or not, you love philosophy, because all the fun, beautiful, wonderful, and important things are only answered this way. You seek to live life to the fullest manny, I choose to do it a different way and I have a lot of fun and satisfaction.

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Manegarm posted:

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I am clearly out of my league. This fight is lost so i will use the old, "just did a lot of exercise/had sex with hot super model wife/did a long shift at work and now I'm too exhausted to continue getting my ass whooped on the internet" excuse. But hey, we cool, dude who pwned me? You don't need to gloat over this, you didn't really win, you see, i have to go off and do sleep/work another long onerous shift/real life tasks.

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Groucho48 posted:

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If men were the ones carrying the little parasites around for nine months, abortion would be legal, free and clear. No questions asked.

As a corollary, if altar boys could get pregnant, the Catholic Bishops would put birth control in the communion wafers.

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