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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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This is sort of a follow up discussing to what is going on in the media now about Rick Santorum, his views on abortion/contraception and then the general argument for/against wellfare, paying for other people's kids and the general social degradation happening where women have babies they can not support.
Does it bother you that your tax dollars go to support people that can not support their own kids?
What do you think people should do to fix this issue?
Do you think that society as a hole should devote tax dollars to helping people who can not raise their own kids?
Do you think men should be equally to pay for this?
Is it ok for abortion to be used as birth control or is it better for the child to be born into what may (in many cases) be a cycle of poverty.
etc
Get out there ACF! I now you all have opinions on this matter. This is the place to discuss those opinions, vent, debate, etc!!!!!!!!!
PS: Please keep in mind we are discussing people having kids that can not support them, but if you want to bring on the fallout endured when a family breaks up and what happens then (you know, dead beat dad leaves with the younger babysitter or something), feel free.
Myself, I am a bit split on the issue. I don't want to see people starving on the street obviously, but I really have an issue with dumbasses who go out and have sex and then cry about how their life sucks and how I should feel guilty because I dont want even more of my money taken away to pay for htem. I do feel for the kids who didn't ask to be born into a poverty trap or stuck with an uncaring mother/father though and feel that is a main reason that society has issues.
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OG_Loki
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It doesn't bother me that my tax dollars goes towards supporting kids who are either too irresponsible to take care of them on their own or are down on their luck. Doesn't bother me one bit.
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Fallen_daemon
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it bothers me that smart, hard working people have to work all their lives to have kids. while lazy no good people have kids and can't even bother to support them.
this goes for corporate welfare too. lazy companies are in the same boat.
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WhipSmack
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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If they need help via welfare or food stamps, they should be required to work for it. Food stamps should be distributed with basic foods from a food bank. If they still cannot manage to take care of their lives and kids, they should consider eating the kids or adopting them out.
Seriously you have to humiliate people for them to change their ways. You SHOULD feel ashamed for not being able to provide for your family. You should feel embarassed to pull out those food stamps, and be motivated to change.
Keep it in your pants if you don't want a kid. Sex is over-rated.
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Jezza_Belle
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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OG_Loki posted:
It doesn't bother me that my tax dollars goes towards supporting kids who are either too irresponsible to take care of them on their own or are down on their luck. Doesn't bother me one bit.
Everyone needs help at something at some point in their lives, without these kinds of lifelines more children suffer, you can blame their parents all you want, but that is still no reason to let the kids suffer.
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OG_Loki
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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WhipSmack posted:
If they need help via welfare or food stamps, they should be required to work for it. Food stamps should be distributed with basic foods from a food bank. If they still cannot manage to take care of their lives and kids, they should consider eating the kids or adopting them out.
Seriously you have to humiliate people for them to change their ways. You SHOULD feel ashamed for not being able to provide for your family. You should feel embarassed to pull out those food stamps, and be motivated to change.
Keep it in your pants if you don't want a kid. Sex is over-rated.
Implying that they aren't shamed already...
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Sith_Mauler
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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WhipSmack posted:
Keep it in your pants if you don't want a kid. Sex is over-rated.
sex is a biological need, you cant change genetic instincts.
you can take a man and woman and isolate them from the world(basically lock them in a room), and eventually they will figure out how to have sex, with no outside influences.
the bottom line is people care until they are forced to open up their check books, then not so many people care.
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Kordirn
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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OG_Loki posted:
It doesn't bother me that my tax dollars goes towards supporting kids who are either too irresponsible to take care of them on their own or are down on their luck. Doesn't bother me one bit.
It bothers me a bit, but I don't think there are any other viable alternatives.
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WhipSmack
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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OG_Loki posted:
WhipSmack posted:
If they need help via welfare or food stamps, they should be required to work for it. Food stamps should be distributed with basic foods from a food bank. If they still cannot manage to take care of their lives and kids, they should consider eating the kids or adopting them out.
Seriously you have to humiliate people for them to change their ways. You SHOULD feel ashamed for not being able to provide for your family. You should feel embarassed to pull out those food stamps, and be motivated to change.
Keep it in your pants if you don't want a kid. Sex is over-rated.
Implying that they aren't shamed already...
Those mexicans are not shamed, they gloat about it while they drive around in their tricked out car. Can you blame them? They beat the system and laugh in our faces.
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Hiakisha
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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There should be a limit on how long you can be on Welfare because its ridiculous when people just stay on welfare their whole lives because its easier than working.
i dont mind helping people who are in trouble but seriously your priorities should be:
1) GET A JOB
2) Kids
it shouldnt be:
1) Clubbing
2) Cigarettes
3) Booze
4) Parties
5) Pizza Hut
108092387597589038244903287957120980918190248) Getting the hell off Welfare
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Et tu, Ticky?
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TickyAtack
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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Much stuff our taxes go to that I should be bothered about than helping and supporting our own people.
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i, ticky.
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WhipSmack
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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TickyAtack posted:
Much stuff our taxes go to that I should be bothered about than helping and supporting our own people.
At this point it's not just supporting people it's propping up the entire economy. Imagine if all the poor were suddenly off food stamps? They wouldn't want to work the sort of jobs that are available to them (even if they were available). As it is now there aren't enough jobs for them all. There are only so many fields to work in. And most of the jobs the poor might be willing to work have already been taken by illegals. The US would become even more of a police state to keep all the criminals off the street. Food stamps are a way of keeping them from rioting. While it might be a temporary fix, how long can this go on? Generation after generation being raised to suck the government tit?
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myxomatosis8
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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Sith_Mauler posted:
WhipSmack posted:
Keep it in your pants if you don't want a kid. Sex is over-rated.
sex is a biological need, you cant change genetic instincts.
you can take a man and woman and isolate them from the world(basically lock them in a room), and eventually they will figure out how to have sex, with no outside influences.
Didn't this happen on the Blue Lagoon?
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Aroith
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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Fallen_daemon posted:
it bothers me that smart, hard working people have to work all their lives to have kids. while lazy no good people have kids and can't even bother to support them.
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WhipSmack
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So I propose getting these people back to work even if it means building something like the Pyramids. You want your free housing? Okay come work for the government building pyramids. You want your free food? Come work in the fields to help harvest it. If people are raised to get something for nothing then they won't be very inclined to change their ways.
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Rhodoman
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Surely, you're not saying
We have the resources
To save the poor from their lot.
There will be poor always
Pathetically struggling
Look at the good things you've got.
Rho
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mightbe
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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Social Security
Student Loans
Welfare
are three major things the government need to fix....the first two, it seems there just letting the bomb tick
On Welfare, I am completly against how it is run right now. I would have no problem putting these parents children in day care so they can go out and work a 40 hour week. Maybe give them food stamps to help support them a little as long as the food stamp program is fixed to prevent abuse/ buying soda and crap.
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Fallen_daemon
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there is no shame on getting food, they get them credit cards for food.
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Fight white guilt and injustice by going to a Native American casino and gamble your money away. me pic http://acf.curbjaw.com/armchair.htm Formerly known as :armchair warrior, sysphus, fallen_deamon http://www.facebook.com/help/contact.php?show_form
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Ungabhunga
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I think society as a hole should just back fill it and forget about it.
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-Ronsac-
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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Fallen_daemon posted:
it bothers me that smart, hard working people have to work all their lives to have kids. while lazy no good people have kids and can't even bother to support them.
this goes for corporate welfare too. lazy companies are in the same boat.
Weren't you basically given everything you have by your parents?
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OG_Loki
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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Jezza_Belle posted:
OG_Loki posted:
It doesn't bother me that my tax dollars goes towards supporting kids who are either too irresponsible to take care of them on their own or are down on their luck. Doesn't bother me one bit.
Everyone needs help at something at some point in their lives, without these kinds of lifelines more children suffer, you can blame their parents all you want, but that is still no reason to let the kids suffer.
Why are you acting like I disagree with you?
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Mangler_SC
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Rhodoman posted:
Surely, you're not saying
We have the resources
To save the poor from their lot.
There will be poor always
Pathetically struggling
Look at the good things you've got.
Rho
J.C. Superstar
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jungalist
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The obvious solution is to sterilize everyone at birth and only reverse the procedure after the individual obtains the proper licenses.
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-Mithan-
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jungalist posted:
The obvious solution is to sterilize everyone at birth and only reverse the procedure after the individual obtains the proper licenses.
That would actually be an interesting solution.
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I'm torn on the matter because really in the end the kids are the ones that are punished and they are here by no fault of their own.
There is already a lifetime limit on cash assistance. The limit is 5 years. I think that there should also be limits on housing subsidies unless you are a disabled or an elderly individual. If you are able to work then there should be limits.
I also think that in order to get food stamps you should have to attend a cooking class and learn how to make foods that aren't frozen, deep fried, or canned. No one can force people to cook and eat better but at least they would have the tools. I also am fine with limits being placed on what types of foods can be purchased with food stamps. No one NEEDS soda, candies, or chips to survive. Does this penalize those who are needing help? Yes. But I still feel that it is acceptable.
Above all there needs to be more accountability for people who are receiving any kind of benefits. If you receive housing assistance or cash assistance then you need to be active and participating with a case manager. You need to be applying for jobs or going to school. Right now these types of things are voluntary. If your children are in school all day and you don't work then I will give you a bus pass and you can be out applying for jobs, doing a resume, going to school to get training, etc. There's absolutely no reason for you to be at home doing nothing productive.
There are people out there that really and truly need help. And there are lazy people. Time limits on assistance will get rid of the lazy people and the case management, guidance, and links to resources can help the people who want to help themselves but don't know where to begin.
HOWEVER. The rest of society also has to be open to change and working towards a common good. The other day a girl came into the office and basically said she has given up on ever doing anything with her life because she has a criminal record. I have no idea what it was for, but it had to be non-violent/non-drug related or she wouldn't be in my office. Regardless, this girl had no ambitions because she felt that a mistake she made when she was 18 or 19 has ruined the rest of her life. She is likely not more than 23 years old. How sad it is to have given up at such a young age and feel that the rest of society has given up on you too.
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Itab
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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myxomatosis8 posted:
Sith_Mauler posted:
WhipSmack posted:
Keep it in your pants if you don't want a kid. Sex is over-rated.
sex is a biological need, you cant change genetic instincts.
you can take a man and woman and isolate them from the world(basically lock them in a room), and eventually they will figure out how to have sex, with no outside influences.
Didn't this happen on the Blue Lagoon?
He summarized the plot.
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-Mithan-
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-Ducky- posted:
I'm torn on the matter because really in the end the kids are the ones that are punished and they are here by no fault of their own.
There is already a lifetime limit on cash assistance. The limit is 5 years. I think that there should also be limits on housing subsidies unless you are a disabled or an elderly individual. If you are able to work then there should be limits.
I also think that in order to get food stamps you should have to attend a cooking class and learn how to make foods that aren't frozen, deep fried, or canned. No one can force people to cook and eat better but at least they would have the tools. I also am fine with limits being placed on what types of foods can be purchased with food stamps. No one NEEDS soda, candies, or chips to survive. Does this penalize those who are needing help? Yes. But I still feel that it is acceptable.
Above all there needs to be more accountability for people who are receiving any kind of benefits. If you receive housing assistance or cash assistance then you need to be active and participating with a case manager. You need to be applying for jobs or going to school. Right now these types of things are voluntary. If your children are in school all day and you don't work then I will give you a bus pass and you can be out applying for jobs, doing a resume, going to school to get training, etc. There's absolutely no reason for you to be at home doing nothing productive.
There are people out there that really and truly need help. And there are lazy people. Time limits on assistance will get rid of the lazy people and the case management, guidance, and links to resources can help the people who want to help themselves but don't know where to begin.
HOWEVER. The rest of society also has to be open to change and working towards a common good. The other day a girl came into the office and basically said she has given up on ever doing anything with her life because she has a criminal record. I have no idea what it was for, but it had to be non-violent/non-drug related or she wouldn't be in my office. Regardless, this girl had no ambitions because she felt that a mistake she made when she was 18 or 19 has ruined the rest of her life. She is likely not more than 23 years old. How sad it is to have given up at such a young age and feel that the rest of society has given up on you too.
Such a thoughtful post. You are definitely a cut above most of the rabble on ACF.
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BritonGuy
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If we aren't making an effort to learn about and colonize space, everything else is useless. Maybe if enough babies pop out, we can create a human capable of enough political success and sense to convince everyone to invest heavily in space research while toning down other useless endeavors.
This above most is the reason Obama is a crappy president. He's willing to drone around in Pakistan, but space is a no fly zone.
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Jezza_Belle
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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OG_Loki posted:
Jezza_Belle posted:
OG_Loki posted:
It doesn't bother me that my tax dollars goes towards supporting kids who are either too irresponsible to take care of them on their own or are down on their luck. Doesn't bother me one bit.
Everyone needs help at something at some point in their lives, without these kinds of lifelines more children suffer, you can blame their parents all you want, but that is still no reason to let the kids suffer.
Why are you acting like I disagree with you?
I'm not? I'm quoting you because I agreed fully, and wanted to add to it.
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purplehugmonkey
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-Ducky- posted:
The rest of society also has to be open to change and working towards a common good. The other day a girl came into the office and basically said she has given up on ever doing anything with her life because she has a criminal record. I have no idea what it was for, but it had to be non-violent/non-drug related or she wouldn't be in my office. Regardless, this girl had no ambitions because she felt that a mistake she made when she was 18 or 19 has ruined the rest of her life. She is likely not more than 23 years old. How sad it is to have given up at such a young age and feel that the rest of society has given up on you too.
I really think we need to do something about the way that criminal records are considered in employment. Maybe misdemeanors don't show up except to the police department until a second offense or something.
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_Alexandra_
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Absolutely not!
Children are innocent and did not ask to be born. If their parents can not take care of them, my husband and I are happy to hand over as much as we can so those children can have a decent start. It is not their fault they were born into troubles.
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myxomatosis8
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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_Alexandra_ posted:
Absolutely not!
Children are innocent and did not ask to be born. If their parents can not take care of them, my husband and I are happy to hand over as much as we can so those children can have a decent start. It is not their fault they were born into troubles.
The sad part is that you can keep on throwing money at the problem, but the kids are still going to suffer, and they already don't have a decent start, nor will they if the current system stays in place.
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Kanga_Roo
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That's tricky but condoms and education are clear winners. The more expensive forced ultrasound idea is a clear loser.
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Aerlinthian
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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-Ducky- posted:
I'm torn on the matter because really in the end the kids are the ones that are punished and they are here by no fault of their own.
Here is the problem with that. The "think of the children!" paradigm is precisely what has set up these egalitarian social safety nets that help to create more of these children. That is why you're ultimately better off with private charities.
Or think of it this way if you hated the bank bailouts. Everyone knew despite claims to the contrary that the government would come rescue those bad actors. Both of these examples are of moral hazard, the former however tugs at heart strings of people who just need to look a little further down the road to better understand the cause & effect.
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Poit-Narf
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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WhipSmack posted:
So I propose getting these people back to work even if it means building something like the Pyramids. You want your free housing? Okay come work for the government building pyramids. You want your free food? Come work in the fields to help harvest it. If people are raised to get something for nothing then they won't be very inclined to change their ways.
Is that even cost-effective?
Let's say a single parent with 2 kids works for the government for 2 days/week in order to earn food stamps. That parent will need to hire a babysitter for approximately 18 hours (each day being 8 hours of work and a mandatory 1-hour lunch). Assuming that parent can get a cheap babysitter who can be paid under the table for only $5/hour, that's still a total of $90... which is enough to feed 3 people for a week. Not only that, this parent is costing the government more money, because all businesses (including the government) incur overhead costs for employees. In other words, this parent is spending 18 hours and a weekly food budget in order to get food for a week, and the government is spending even more money.
I know I made a lot of these numbers up, but it's still something to consider.
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levgre
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Aerlinthian posted:
Here is the problem with that. The "think of the children!" paradigm is precisely what has set up these egalitarian social safety nets that help to create more of these children. That is why you're ultimately better off with private charities.
Except there's no evidence/proof that the welfare system has a noteworthy impact on birthrates. It's just an issue conservatives exploit to rile up voters.
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Bat_Avenger
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forced abortion for those who can not afford kids.
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-Ducky-
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Aerlinthian posted:
-Ducky- posted:
I'm torn on the matter because really in the end the kids are the ones that are punished and they are here by no fault of their own.
Here is the problem with that. The "think of the children!" paradigm is precisely what has set up these egalitarian social safety nets that help to create more of these children. That is why you're ultimately better off with private charities.
Or think of it this way if you hated the bank bailouts. Everyone knew despite claims to the contrary that the government would come rescue those bad actors. Both of these examples are of moral hazard, the former however tugs at heart strings of people who just need to look a little further down the road to better understand the cause & effect.
I understand the comparison and I do tend to agree with it in some instances. Trust me. I work in the ghetto and see things every day. It is very hard not to be angry at people who either appear to be abusing the system or are not using the system "correctly" (i.e. spending money frivolously and not attempting to become successful to our standards). I remind myself that there are a lot of things that I don't see. Low self-esteem, anger, resentment, guilt, stress. I can't imagine the stress that a lot of people who live in poverty go through. We might not see it, but it's there. It's easy to put on a good front in the daylight hours hiding under expensive clothes or a nice car, but they have to answer to themselves at night when they are laying in bed. I doubt everyone on welfare goes to bed with a smug look on their face because they pulled one over on the taxpayers.
But you know who are the most receptive to change and learning? The children. Whenever I get upset, judgmental, or angry at the adults I just remind myself I am working for the kids. They come to my tutoring, they want to start a garden, they want to be involved in the community, they want to learn proper dental care (it's the parents that often don't follow through with the adult portion of it), the list goes on. The cycle can be broken if we get to the children early enough and equip parents with the tools and knowledge to be good role models.
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Brother_Tempus
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Tax Dollars and supporting kids that parents can not support on their own
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levgre posted:
Aerlinthian posted:
Here is the problem with that. The "think of the children!" paradigm is precisely what has set up these egalitarian social safety nets that help to create more of these children. That is why you're ultimately better off with private charities.
Except there's no evidence/proof that the welfare system has a noteworthy impact on birthrates. It's just an issue conservatives exploit to rile up voters.
Rothbard makes an excellent case
http://mises.org/journals/jls/12_2/12_2_1.pdf
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Kordirn
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Bat_Avenger posted:
forced abortion for those who can not afford kids.
I would have to agree. Bat Avenger is a perfect example of how this world would be a better place if this system was active.
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levgre
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Brother_Tempus posted:
levgre posted:
Aerlinthian posted:
Here is the problem with that. The "think of the children!" paradigm is precisely what has set up these egalitarian social safety nets that help to create more of these children. That is why you're ultimately better off with private charities.
Except there's no evidence/proof that the welfare system has a noteworthy impact on birthrates. It's just an issue conservatives exploit to rile up voters.
Rothbard makes an excellent case
http://mises.org/journals/jls/12_2/12_2_1.pdf
Um no, 40 pages of theoretical rambling is not compelling when you do not have any statistical correlations.
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JD_HOGG
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Liberal weenies are never happy. Are the poor better off today than they were 100 years ago? Of course they are. But that's not good enough. They have to have luxuries.
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Fallen_daemon
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legal prostitution, i'm sure she'll be able to afford child care,
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-Kruugar-
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Does it bother you that your tax dollars go to support people that can not support their own kids?
No. Because child birth is the largest contribution to the economy. It produces another consumer who will consume products... giving other people jobs.
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Second_Chance
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Does it bother you that your tax dollars go to support people that can not support their own kids?
As long as we have the current military industrial complex, we will have unnecessary children. Or, cannon fodder.
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Aerlinthian
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-Kruugar- posted:
No. Because child birth is the largest contribution to the economy. It produces another consumer who will consume products... giving other people jobs.
Funny, I thought the left was all fired up on population reduction and more resource conservation. All of those "consumers" are going to want luxuries in addition to meats and other items that are claimed to have a significant impact upon planetary resources and climate change.
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uglydwarf
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Ben Franklin had it right.
“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.â€
? Benjamin Franklin
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Dark_EternalFF
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-Mithan- posted:
Does it bother you that your tax dollars go to support people that can not support their own kids?
Depends. Are they just down on their luck, or are they heroin addicts? Is the money going towards the kids, or towards the parents?
What do you think people should do to fix this issue?
Tough to say. You risk not helping people who genuinely need it in order to weed out people who abuse the system. Drug testing for welfare benefits would be a start, but I think government-funded rehab programs rather than money spent on a war on drugs would help alleviate this problem better.
Do you think that society as a whole should devote tax dollars to helping people who can not raise their own kids?
Generally, yes
Do you think men should be equally to pay for this?
Not even sure wtf you mean by this
Is it ok for abortion to be used as birth control or is it better for the child to be born into what may (in many cases) be a cycle of poverty.
I believe in taking responsibility for one's actions, but I don't believe I have the right to tell someone else not to have an abortion. I'm not a 'pro-lifer'; human life does not have intrinsic value to me simply for existing. I would rather see a child given up for adoption than aborted, but I'm not willing to force this on others.
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-Kruugar-
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Aerlinthian posted:
-Kruugar- posted:
No. Because child birth is the largest contribution to the economy. It produces another consumer who will consume products... giving other people jobs.
Funny, I thought the left was all fired up on population reduction and more resource conservation. All of those "consumers" are going to want luxuries in addition to meats and other items that are claimed to have a significant impact upon planetary resources and climate change.
Thankfully I'm a Centrist.
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Aerlinthian
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For which country are you a centrist, Canada or America?
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Aerlinthian
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levgre posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
Rothbard makes an excellent case
http://mises.org/journals/jls/12_2/12_2_1.pdf
Um no, 40 pages of theoretical rambling is not compelling when you do not have any statistical correlations.
Say what?
http://mises.org/Literature
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Brother_Tempus
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levgre posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
levgre posted:
[quote=Aerlinthian]Here is the problem with that. The "think of the children!" paradigm is precisely what has set up these egalitarian social safety nets that help to create more of these children. That is why you're ultimately better off with private charities.
Except there's no evidence/proof that the welfare system has a noteworthy impact on birthrates. It's just an issue conservatives exploit to rile up voters.
Rothbard makes an excellent case
http://mises.org/journals/jls/12_2/12_2_1.pdf
Um no, 40 pages .[/quote]
and Lev with ADD ...
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lowkeyog2012
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Hardcore capitalist here, my money going anywhere hurts my feelings
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Ah-Schoo
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levgre posted:
Except there's no evidence/proof that the welfare system has a noteworthy impact on birthrates. It's just an issue conservatives exploit to rile up voters.
Brother_Tempus posted:
levgre posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
Rothbard makes an excellent case
http://mises.org/journals/jls/12_2/12_2_1.pdf
Um no, 40 pages of theoretical rambling is not compelling when you do not have any statistical correlations..
and Lev with ADD ...
Re-added the part that B_T cut out that could have led to discussion, instead of going for the totally predictable attack.
Cowardly troll is consistent.
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-Kruugar-
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Aerlinthian posted:
For which country are you a centrist, Canada or America?
I'm a centrist on the global scale,
Not the American relative scale.
Centrist in the US is moderate right wing anywhere else.
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