Altra_Shadowstalker
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http://po.st/e99tNA
Just don't say anything. Can they use your refusal to ask you out of the car and breathalyze you?
As far as I know, you only need to provide your name and date of birth to comply with the law, so refusing to answer other questions can't really be considered probable cause or suspicious behavior.
I'll edit if the link is broke. Works for me. Takes you to ebaumsworld.
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sweeny_comodore
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we used to have a constitutional right under the 5th amendment that allowed us to remain silent.
you people saw to it that that right was revoked and now they can haul us into a hospital for a forced blood removal against our will.
all you ever had to say, in the past, was; "am i under arrest? no, then may i go? oh i am under arrest? then i wish to talk to my laywer."
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__Bonk__
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Checkpoints in America should be illegal. THere needs to be probable cause
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Elkad
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Works fine.
Use the same routine at any traffic stop. Except if it's a normal stop (not a checkpoint), you have to provide your license and such.
I don't roll the window down all the way either. A half-inch is plenty to hand my license through the gap.
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Taliesihne
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The law would eventually support you. But if you draw the wrong cop, you are pretty screwed and it's a moot point.
The officers in the video should be commended btw. Not for 'letting him go', just for being professional.
The sergeant made a judgement call. He spoke enough with them and was there long enough to establish that he was likely sober. She decided she didn't want the hassle.
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sweeny_comodore
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you also dont have to stop at checkpoints.
maybe not in other states, but in illinois the checkpoints are optional.
you can always turn around and go back the way you came. ive done it before while both sober and drunk.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Yup, as long as you drive legally, there's nothing forcing you to stop at a checkpoint.
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Scarne
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What if he was white?
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__Bonk__
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They should be illegal. Also cops make up probable cause to stop you for things like seat belt violations. The system is corrupt
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Taliesihne
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Again, you can do these things, but you are really at the whim of the police at that point. Police can and will follow you if you turn around a DUI Checkpoint - they can't hit the wailer and chase you, but nothing stops them from heading in the same general direction as you for 10 miles or so, going just a bit slower cause it's a nice night.
I'm no fan of cops and I definitely believe in the mantra of 'keep your damn mouth shut around the police', but the reality is they have an awful lot of power to ruin your night immediately. The 'justice' you'll get will be way down the road, after you've been screwed over by a cop.
I guess I'm just getting to be more of a pragmatist in my old age.
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__Bonk__
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Cops stopped me and gave a ticket to my boss for not wearing his seatbelt. It was a seatbelt sweep apparently. They said I didnt go to the side of the street for an emergency vehicle but the cop never turned on his lights or his siren. It was just a legal ruse to get me pulled over to give the seatbelt ticket to my boss.
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Yukishiro1
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If you drive drunk you deserve to be caught, have your license taken away, and be thrown in jail.
We have a system of rights for other reasons but don't for a moment think you don't deserve everything you get from a moral point of view if you're driving drunk.
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Elkad
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Yukishiro1 posted:
If you drive drunk you deserve to be caught, have your license taken away, and be thrown in jail.
We have a system of rights for other reasons but don't for a moment think you don't deserve everything you get from a moral point of view if you're driving drunk.
Fine. Pull over people driving impaired. But random searches are a completely different animal.
Even if you are driving drunk and swerving all over, you still don't have to talk to the police. You just have to hand over your papers on request, etc..
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illmyrin
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I grew up watching DoH and the fall guy. FK YOU and Your little roadblock.
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Mastara
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dont drink and drive. problem solved. other than that there should be no reason to stop unless youve done something wrong.
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IMHO
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Tell the cop how you really feel.
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vn_nnanji
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As much as I hate to agree with Mascara it really is pretty simple.
If checkpoints are a problem for you then you are a problem. Stop drinking and driving you numbskull.
If you are too stupid to follow those instructions than I hope they do set up a checkpoint and arrest your lame ass. Better that than you killing someone.
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vn_nnanji
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Elkad posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
If you drive drunk you deserve to be caught, have your license taken away, and be thrown in jail.
We have a system of rights for other reasons but don't for a moment think you don't deserve everything you get from a moral point of view if you're driving drunk.
Fine. Pull over people driving impaired. But random searches are a completely different animal.
Even if you are driving drunk and swerving all over, you still don't have to talk to the police. You just have to hand over your papers on request, etc..
Yeah, see how that goes. Just hand him your stuff and clam up. 
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ZigmundZag
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Wait, wasn't there just a news story about a guy who was acting irrationally and didn't respond to the police? 
Like Tali said, it pretty much depends on the cop. If he's cool, he'll do the right thing. If not, he'll overreact and his partner, union and department will probably cover for him anyway.
Also, keep in mind that the mere act of filming a checkpoint is probably illegal in some states. That alone would get you dragged out of your car, as stupid as it may be.
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Aerlinthian
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ZigmundZag posted:
Also, keep in mind that the mere act of filming a checkpoint is probably illegal in some states.
Under the constitution it is not illegal in any state.
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ZigmundZag
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Aerlinthian posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
Also, keep in mind that the mere act of filming a checkpoint is probably illegal in some states.
Under the constitution it is not illegal in any state.
I bet the attorneys general of those states would be shocked and deeply disturbed by your legal opinion!
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eodoll
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I think you have to stop.. The whole driving is a priviledge and not a right. You will lose ypur license for not stopping, you wont go to jail though.
The best is probably refuse and say take my license away instead of dealing with a DUI.
Edit: just checked online, it looks like by accepting a license to drive then you have also accepted to deal with these procedures.
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ZigmundZag
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eodoll posted:
I think you have to stop.. The whole driving is a priviledge and not a right. You will lose ypur license for not stopping, you wont go to jail though.
The best is probably refuse and say take my license away instead of dealing with a DUI.
Edit: just checked online, it looks like by accepting a license to drive then you have also accepted to deal with these procedures.
That's true of traffic stops, but a DUI is a misdemeanor offense and they're performing searches with no probable cause. It's a legal grey area at best. Your best option is to not be drunk and to respond to the officers. Failing that, total silence might work. At a different checkpoint in a different state, the results of that stop could have been very different, though. You may have a victory in court a year later, but it would be kinda hollow after spending a year without a license and being tazed.
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Bowlartz
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ZigmundZag posted:
That's true of traffic stops, but a DUI is a misdemeanor offense and they're performing searches with no probable cause. It's a legal grey area at best.
There is no legal grey area.
"By a 6-3 decision in Michigan Dept. of State Police v. Sitz (1990), the United States Supreme Court found properly conducted sobriety checkpoints to be constitutional."
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nothing twists a cop's tit more than exercising your rights
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Eager_Igraine
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Bowlartz posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
That's true of traffic stops, but a DUI is a misdemeanor offense and they're performing searches with no probable cause. It's a legal grey area at best.
There is no legal grey area.
"By a 6-3 decision in Michigan Dept. of State Police v. Sitz (1990), the United States Supreme Court found properly conducted sobriety checkpoints to be constitutional."
Also, with Tali and others I agree.
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Koneg
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Yup, as long as you drive legally, there's nothing forcing you to stop at a checkpoint.
Don't be stupid.
The SCOTUS has already heard cases relating to DUI checkpoints, and they are "reasonable" searches as the law defines reasonable.
As a reminder, the Constitution does not say you can't be searched without a warrant. It says you can't be subject to an unreasonable search without a warrant.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=11348246873623439918&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr
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ZigmundZag
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Bowlartz posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
That's true of traffic stops, but a DUI is a misdemeanor offense and they're performing searches with no probable cause. It's a legal grey area at best.
There is no legal grey area.
"By a 6-3 decision in Michigan Dept. of State Police v. Sitz (1990), the United States Supreme Court found properly conducted sobriety checkpoints to be constitutional."
Yes, but do you have to answer the officer's questions? Of course not. Now IF you choose this route, a professional officer may realize that your silence should not be self-incriminating. A less professional one may find you to be acting irrationally or resisting a lawful order and force you out of the car. Like I said, you may get a victory in court a year later, but it's not really going to be worth it.
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Crackdoc
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In Ontario (a Province in the Peace-Loving peoples Social-Democratic nation of Canukistan),one HAS to stop for Police Random Stops BUT one does not have to talk to them other than to provide proof of license, insurance and ownership.
If requested, a roadside breathalyzer test MUST be taken.
The stock question "Have you had any alcohol to drink today?" does NOT have to be answered - if the officer asks, you can say "I don't wish to discuss that with you.".
As a personal note, I think all Random Stops smack of Fascism - they are failing to curb drunken driving (more people nailed this winter here than ever before). I would opt for scaled (3 month, 6 month, 1 year and LIFE) mandatory hard labour incarceration if drunkeness was involved in a motor vehicle incident.
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Ashmaele
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The DUI Exception
Your 5th Amendment rights are safe, unless of course they aren't
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Koneg
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Ashmaele posted:
Your 5th Amendment rights are safe, unless of course they aren't
Uhm, what does the 5th amendment have to do with it?
You are not providing testimony when they fingerprint you. You are not providing testimony when they take your mug shot. You are not providing testimony when they take a blood sample, breathalyze you, DNA test you, swab your hands for gunpowder residue, or any other form of physical evidence gathering.
Physical evidence != 5th Amendment. If you are not speaking it or writing it down you are not providing them with testimony which may be used against you later.
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Ashmaele
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Koneg posted:
Ashmaele posted:
Your 5th Amendment rights are safe, unless of course they aren't
Uhm, what does the 5th amendment have to do with it?
You are not providing testimony when they fingerprint you. You are not providing testimony when they take your mug shot. You are not providing testimony when they take a blood sample, breathalyze you, DNA test you, swab your hands for gunpowder residue, or any other form of physical evidence gathering.
Physical evidence != 5th Amendment. If you are not speaking it or writing it down you are not providing them with testimony which may be used against you later.
Is the 5th Amendment privilege limited to verbal testimony? Self incrimination can take many forms.
Also, did you read the link?
(Incidentally, I realize that you are correct, the courts have long since ruled on this matter, which is what the guy in the link I posted discusses)
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Koneg
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Ashmaele posted:
Is the 5th Amendment privilege limited to verbal testimony?
Verbal or written. That's it.
Ashmaele posted:
Also, did you read the link?
I skimmed the first page, but we've had this discussion about a half-zillion times here already.
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Ashmaele
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Crackdoc posted:
As a personal note, I think all Random Stops smack of Fascism -
So did America's founding fathers. They abhorred blanket searches, which is the whole point in them requiring the government to have a warrant before searching people.
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Yukishiro1
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Ashmaele posted:
The DUI Exception
Your 5th Amendment rights are safe, unless of course they aren't
I think the 5th amendment bit is the least important bit of that guy's rant. His claims about the science of the breathalyzer machines are genuinely disturbing and if true would change my view of the system.
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Go see Rampart My cousin was a police commander at this district during the time this film took place. Some cops make up their own rules.
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Bowlartz
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ZigmundZag posted:
Bowlartz posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
That's true of traffic stops, but a DUI is a misdemeanor offense and they're performing searches with no probable cause. It's a legal grey area at best.
There is no legal grey area.
"By a 6-3 decision in Michigan Dept. of State Police v. Sitz (1990), the United States Supreme Court found properly conducted sobriety checkpoints to be constitutional."
Yes, but do you have to answer the officer's questions? Of course not. Now IF you choose this route, a professional officer may realize that your silence should not be self-incriminating. A less professional one may find you to be acting irrationally or resisting a lawful order and force you out of the car. Like I said, you may get a victory in court a year later, but it's not really going to be worth it.
You don't have to answer any questions beyond your name, you must give your name if asked which is also a Supreme Court ruling.
"The name disclosure was considered by the U.S. Supreme Court in Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177 (2004), which held that the name disclosure did not violate the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures. The Hiibel Court also held that, because Hiibel had no reasonable belief that his name would be used to incriminate him, the name disclosure did not violate the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination;"
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Eager_Igraine
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Subject:
DUI Checkpoint refusal
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Ashmaele posted:
The DUI Exception
Your 5th Amendment rights are safe, unless of course they aren't
I think the 5th amendment bit is the least important bit of that guy's rant. His claims about the science of the breathalyzer machines are genuinely disturbing and if true would change my view of the system.
I find myself unswayed by his biased presentation of partial information designed to win his argument rather than present a balanced and informed explanation. He makes his bones defending DUI cases. I know that some prosecutors don't even bother pursuing DUI cases where the blow falls within the margin of error of the machine, meaning they take a blow of at least .12% to bust in a 0.08% state.
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I radiate more heat than light.
I know what you're trying to do but you're just sailing another failboat over the falls. - imaloon1
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RHWarrior
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Subject:
DUI Checkpoint refusal
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tl;dr
1. Don't be an idiot and an asshole - don't drink/do drugs and drive.
2. See 1.
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"Drink coffee - do stupids things faster with more energy! ...and I'm all out of beans..." -me
"You guys need to stop dick riding wow and compare everything to it. It never invented a godamn thing, just made it popular. " -tinkly
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Koneg
Title: Evil Genius
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Subject:
DUI Checkpoint refusal
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Modeeb posted:
Go see Rampart My cousin was a police commander at this district during the time this film took place. Some cops make up their own rules.
By this metric I should probably go see 2012: Supernova if I want to see what a gamma ray burst might do to the planet...
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* First rule of a gun fight: Have a gun.
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"Any sufficiently advanced idiocy is
indistinguishable from trolling." -- Arthur C Clarke
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