Eager_Igraine
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General Motors Unveils Record Profits For 2011
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17062698
posted:
The firm made a profit of $7.6bn (£4.85bn) over the year, up 62% from 2010.
However, it lost $700m in Europe, which includes its UK Vauxhall plants in Ellesmere Port and Luton, and made a $100m loss in South America.
The firm, which faced bankruptcy two years ago, saw sales rise 7.6% last year to more than 9 million vehicles.
Where is the taxpayer's cut?
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Ashmaele
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I think they paid back their bailout money.
It's a good thing we didn't let them go under.
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Grymlo
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NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Including the $1.3 billion loss on its Chrysler investment, announced Thursday, the United States government has lost about $14 billion on the auto industry bail-out
yep 
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Eager_Igraine
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General Motors Unveils Record Profits For 2011
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Grymlo posted:
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Including the $1.3 billion loss on its Chrysler investment, announced Thursday, the United States government has lost about $14 billion on the auto industry bail-out
yep
I wonder how they calculate that loss. Does the loss include the economic backlash that could result from GM et. al. going under?
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Grymlo
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General Motors Unveils Record Profits For 2011
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Then let them go under. Its a private business and the gubmint had to right to get involved with taxpayer money to begin with. Someone else would end up filling the void anyways
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Ashmaele
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General Motors Unveils Record Profits For 2011
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Eager_Igraine posted:
Grymlo posted:
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Including the $1.3 billion loss on its Chrysler investment, announced Thursday, the United States government has lost about $14 billion on the auto industry bail-out
yep
I wonder how they calculate that loss. Does the loss include the economic backlash that could result from GM et. al. going under?
I would guess that they are comparing whole dollars and completely discounting the potential loss in tax revenues etc.
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ZigmundZag
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General Motors Unveils Record Profits For 2011
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http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/16/news/companies/gm_bailout/
GM still owes the gubmint 25.5 billion, but we're holding about 13 billion worth of their stock.
IMHO all dividends should be going to the treasury until that debt is repaid in full.
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Ashmaele
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General Motors Unveils Record Profits For 2011
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Grymlo posted:
Then let them go under. Its a private business and the gubmint had to right to get involved with taxpayer money to begin with. Someone else would end up filling the void anyways
Wouldn't it be nice if this logic were applied uniformly? As it is now, right-leaning industries seem to have no problem whatsoever accepting government subsidies to the tune of billions every year, yet we are somehow anally raping the corpse of Founding Father Milton Friedman when we bail out Big Car.`
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Does that include the sales tax on the 9 million sold? Or the tax on the workers paychecks? Or the taxes on the supplies to build the cars? How about not having to pay unemployment, welfare, food stamps, etc...?
Sounds like that can add up to 14 billion pretty easily, and that's just one company. Seems to me it was in the countries best interest to maintain a lucrative manufacturer afloat.
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Thugoneous
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If you're talking about banks they should have gone under too.
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Z-Elder
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We own a third? Did our voting block vote for their new bonuses?
And, did we vote to keep Opal?
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Groucho48
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Does that include the sales tax on the 9 million sold? Or the tax on the workers paychecks? Or the taxes on the supplies to build the cars? How about not having to pay unemployment, welfare, food stamps, etc...?
Sounds like that can add up to 14 billion pretty easily, and that's just one company. Seems to me it was in the countries best interest to maintain a lucrative manufacturer afloat.
From the CNN link, it doesn't sound as though it did count that stuff.
Still, advocates of the bailout say the success of the companies is proof that the bailout worked. The hit to the economy would have been far worse than the $15 billion or so that the bailouts might end up costing taxpayers, considering the estimated 1.5 million additional job losses, the closure of GM, Chrysler and many of their suppliers and the shifting of much auto production overseas if the companies had failed.
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theredkay1
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ZigmundZag posted:
http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/16/news/companies/gm_bailout/
GM still owes the gubmint 25.5 billion, but we're holding about 13 billion worth of their stock.
IMHO all dividends should be going to the treasury until that debt is repaid in full.
gubmint decided to sell some of its stock already and they were not the only entity who participated in the bailout so they never had complete ownership. Right now GM is not paying any dividends.
the government decided that getting ownership back into private hands was important and has not focused on maximizing profit.
From a 'whats good for the economy' perspective, the bailout and the decision to sell shares back even if it means a loss seem like the correct move.
The uncalculated cost of not extending financing to GM as several hundred thousand jobs shut down is probably pretty high.
One of the few really smart economic decisions made by the powers that be during the economic collapse.
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theredkay1
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Grymlo posted:
Then let them go under. Its a private business and the gubmint had to right to get involved with taxpayer money to begin with. Someone else would end up filling the void anyways
the last part is a statement of faith on your part.
Similar statements can be used to get rid of the fire department. When the city is burning down, just let it burn...something else will fill the void one day in the future. Ignoring all the pain and permanently lost economic growth in the interim is not a smart approach.
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Rosaria
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All I know about GM is that its selling at a 50% reduction loss of its original IPO last time I looked. I would rationally decline purchase of that offer.
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Groucho48
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theredkay1 posted:
Grymlo posted:
Then let them go under. Its a private business and the gubmint had to right to get involved with taxpayer money to begin with. Someone else would end up filling the void anyways
the last part is a statement of faith on your part.
Similar statements can be used to get rid of the fire department. When the city is burning down, just let it burn...something else will fill the void one day in the future. Ignoring all the pain and permanently lost economic growth in the interim is not a smart approach.
As I recall both Chrysler and GM tried to auction off parts of their business to other entities. The only serious offer was from Fiat, for Chrysler.
The right is now claiming, of course, that there were all sorts of free market remedies available which would have turned out much better than the record profits GM and Chrylser are achieving. But, when you parse them, mainly what they are saying is that the unions didn't get screwed enough.
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paulg_68
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theredkay1 posted:
Similar statements can be used to get rid of the fire department. When the city is burning down, just let it burn...something else will fill the void one day in the future.
In your mind the fire department is another example of the free market?
One day I'd love to see you criticize the free market using an actual free market example. Every time you've criticized it before you've had to resort to a government example.
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Blue_arrow
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"the 13 billion worth of their stock"
GM stock has to dubble before you see any of that
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Bowlartz
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When oil companies see profits near that amount they are called the devil. 
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sweeny_comodore
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Bowlartz posted:
When oil companies see profits near that amount they are called the devil.
lol
the oil companies make enough in profits to pay fishermen a years lost wages because of the oil slick in their fishing lands.
i dont see GM paying local auto mechanics salaries for a loss in wages due to influx of crappy foreign cars
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B_Shinkicker
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Record profits? Where is the demand coming from??
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Sansfear
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It is easy to become profitable when you declare bankruptcy and get rid of all those pesky liabilities that were holding you down.
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armoredgimp
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Yes you let them fail, from the ashes will arise a much leaner company.
Not to mention the 3 or 4 spin offs that rush to fill the void.
http://www.aptera.com/
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Sin_of_Onin
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The group that was really saved from the auto bailouts were those relying on a pension from GM.
The fact that this group had to get bailed out is a travesty that was brought on by private business. It is a fine example of how private business can totally screw people over. Of course public institutions also screw people over in the same way.
Imagine that.
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Rosaria
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B_Shinkicker posted:
Record profits? Where is the demand coming from??
I read somewhere that the Fed gov't was ordering fleets of cars from GM. There's prolly info somewhere about that but I never pursued it.
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Rosaria
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
The group that was really saved from the auto bailouts were those relying on a pension from GM.
The fact that this group had to get bailed out is a travesty that was brought on by private business. It is a fine example of how private business can totally screw people over. Of course public institutions also screw people over in the same way.
Imagine that.
I think GM's pension plan is still underfunded by about 10 billion USD, take or give a few billion.
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Lyken-P
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
The group that was really saved from the auto bailouts were those relying on a pension from GM.
Pensions are a bad idea to begin with, management always messes up the calculations, and it should be done away with. Give people more pay and let them save/invest for themselves.
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theredkay1
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paulg_68 posted:
theredkay1 posted:
Similar statements can be used to get rid of the fire department. When the city is burning down, just let it burn...something else will fill the void one day in the future.
In your mind the fire department is another example of the free market?
One day I'd love to see you criticize the free market using an actual free market example. Every time you've criticized it before you've had to resort to a government example.
Your confusion about my analogy is central to your confusion about this general topic every time it comes up.
Here is an example for you:
In 2009 a very large company with huge revenue numbers but massive liability problems was on the brink. This was not a company that should be liquidated based on the solid sales....they produce products that people really want. In spite of good sales, the company has too many promises....and the fault for that lies with both parties, the company and the lenders who did a bad job estimating the companies future ability to pay. To maximize value to current lenders and the future economy, you dont liquidate for pennies on the dollar a company that needs to restructure its liabilities.
Normally a lender will provide funding to keep the company afloat while it restructures and makes deals with those it has made future promises. In 2009 the companies that usually do this were in meltdown mode and had no funding to pass along. The private market could not fill the needed role of lender because the major lenders were all wondering if they too were about to go belly up.
Further evidence that the private market failed in this instance is coming right now as that company that was failing in 2009 is posting record profits a few years later after it restructured. Letting the private market work in 2009 would nto have created any value for anyone. Lenders would have lost more money on liquidation and a currently successful company would have been snuffed out....not to mention all the other secondary failures (suppliers, dearships, Ford). In 2009 the lending industry was not functional, the government filled that role for a brief period and saved hundreds of thousands of jobs while creating bilions in economic value for everyone involved.
I know analogies confuse you, maybe this was easier.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Lyken-P posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
The group that was really saved from the auto bailouts were those relying on a pension from GM.
Pensions are a bad idea to begin with, management always messes up the calculations, and it should be done away with. Give people more pay and let them save/invest for themselves.
Pension plans would have a better job working if management wasn't incompetent and immoral.
I would much rather have the money they say is going towards my pension (and reitree health for that matter) go right into a 401K or health savings account or something.
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