PhillsburyBandit
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And lets say its God's will! If they disagree just keep repeating the first sentence! Ready?
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Special-Fred
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Let's also shoot anyone ever found in possession of pot or other illegal drugs on site.
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Taliesihne
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I'm all for stopping the state subsidization of religion.
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First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. -Roland Deschain, of Gilead
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cabbyman
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As long as we start taxing all non-profits equally then I'm all for this! 
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reesescups
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Taliesihne posted:
I'm all for stopping the state subsidization of religion.
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"I'm not racist at all." - dae_trist
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Thugoneous
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cabbyman posted:
As long as we start taxing all non-profits equally then I'm all for this!
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IMHO
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cabbyman posted:
As long as we start taxing all non-profits equally then I'm all for this!
What does the modern church and non-profits have to do with each other?
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_Enkidu_
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How do you tax a non-profit? By definition they should have nothing to tax. Churches and on the other hand, yikes! 
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imaloon1
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IMHO posted:
cabbyman posted:
As long as we start taxing all non-profits equally then I'm all for this!
What does the modern church and non-profits have to do with each other?
No taxes?
Unless there's a joke that I missed further down I apologize.
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_Enkidu_
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Lol, dudes, we were all over that!
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Tych2
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Why aren't churches taxed? I always thought they should be. They are a business after all.
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IMHO
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Tych2 posted:
Why aren't churches taxed? I always thought they should be. They are a business after all.
They are BIG business!!
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He's [Manegarm] like the Fred Phelps of atheism. ~Bubbledude
many of you are in the Republican boat, aka the ship of fools. ~Modeeb
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Sin_of_Onin
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A lot of churches are poor. The taxes that would hurt them are things like property taxes.
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Tych2
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Couldn't you have a progressive tax like we use for income on private citizens?
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reesescups
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Cut to the chase, instead of wasting time taxing Churches, just implement a stupid person tax.
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Mastara
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Of which, how much would you be taxed?
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theredkay1
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
A lot of churches are poor. The taxes that would hurt them are things like property taxes.
Sounds like we might end up with fewer, larger churches placed on less valuable land. Unless members of the church are willing to pay for the expensive land.
Seems like an ok result.
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Modeeb
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I worked as an auditor for the IRS auditing tax exempt entities. Scientology is on the IRS 10 most wanted list as a church to tax. I happen to know these laws, or, at one time was an expert in these laws. I have forgotten much over the years. I do recall a high priestess who wanted to create a religion around her as a sexual goddess. If she would have hired me to get her tax exempt status I could have done it. It is an art. I had a reputation , from my first audit, which I revoked their tax exempt status as a force. I am not proud to say I have helped a very wealthy slum lords attain tax exempt status.
Churches are taxed on revenue which is unrelated to their exempt purpose.
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Fail Again. Fail Better. Samuel Beckett
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Sin_of_Onin
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It would mostly impact the poor churches in poor areas that are the churches that are most likely doing good work.
It won't impact the mege churches that much.
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reesescups
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Mastara posted:
Of which, how much would you be taxed?
If you have to ask - I am guessing you'd be taxed at the highest bracket...
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reesescups
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
It would mostly impact the poor churches in poor areas that are the churches that are most likely doing good work.
That's where most of the fundies come from... Hopefully taxing them would put them out of business.
Win win for society and everyone involved.
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Manegarm
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It should be taxed, any organisation that makes a profit should have to pay taxes.
Why set a different standards just because the merchandise they are peddling is delusion?
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Halloweve
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I don't know PB, that would harm the needy. It would only take away from the poor.
I do think world ministry churches are big business and should be held to strict audits..and books should be public..including wages paid.
Now, here is where i 100% agree with you. In Ohio we have a large population of Amish.
They claim under their religion every household is a church. They pay no taxes. It is a loophole that needs to be closed..but how can this be done without hurting churches in the regular sense?
The Amish are very wealthy here.
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Manegarm
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Halloweve posted:
I don't know PB, that would harm the needy. It would only take away from the poor.
I do think world ministry churches are big business and should be held to strict audits..and books should be public..including wages paid.
Now, here is where i 100% agree with you. In Ohio we have a large population of Amish.
They claim under their religion every household is a church. They pay no taxes. It is a loophole that needs to be closed..but how can this be done without hurting churches in the regular sense?
The Amish are very wealthy here.
Why care if it hurts churches, everyone is equal under the law.. No one is supposed to hide behind some silly notion of holiness or sanctity.
Might as well fund a church of Copyism run it like a business where we actually sell electronic products claiming that it's the medium of how our gospell is transferred and that the sending of code is a holy sacrament, under the current idiocy my church would not have to pay taxes and I could make a shitload of money and start lobbying hardcore for filesharing..
wait that's not a bad idea actually.
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Yukishiro1
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To the extent that churches are really doing charitable things they shouldn't be taxed for doing the charitable things just like other charitable activities are not taxed. There shouldn't be any special treatment simply because they're religious. I do not know how the tax code actually functions in this respect.
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ZigmundZag
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Fundies don't come from small, poor churches. The poorer churches are just as likely to be liberal churches in urban neighborhoods as they are ultra-conservative ones. The dangerous fundies are in the megachurches. They're the ones trying to dictate policy to the government. Take the Mormons, for instance - you remember, the guys who actually managed to get gay marriage defeated in California of all places? Do you really think a church that consists mostly of middle and upper class white people who pay 10% into it would be phased by a property tax?
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Halloweve
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That's right Yuki. Charity is charity. It is important that we share some of what we have for the needy..and it has already been taxed once.
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Yukishiro1
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Lots of what churches do really isn't charitable, though. That part of it ought to be taxed.
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ZigmundZag
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Halloweve posted:
and it has already been taxed once.
In any context, that is the most ridiculous anti-tax argument ever.
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Halloweve
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Why Zig? I feel 100% opposite. It has been fairly taxed.
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Yukishiro1
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Everything has always been taxed more than once. 
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Ashmaele
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Halloweve posted:
Why Zig? I feel 100% opposite. It has been fairly taxed.
The reasoning (I think) is that pretty much any dollar that is taxed in any way has already been taxed in some way at some point, so the notion that "it's already been taxed" is a bit of a red herring. We tax transfers at many different levels.
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Halloweve
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I understand that Yuki, but we are talking about charity.
And what are some real examples of where a church should be taxed?
I know wages paid out of donations are taxed, like any other wage.
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Clackdor
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If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.
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ZigmundZag
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Ashmaele posted:
Halloweve posted:
Why Zig? I feel 100% opposite. It has been fairly taxed.
The reasoning (I think) is that pretty much any dollar that is taxed in any way has already been taxed in some way at some point, so the notion that "it's already been taxed" is a bit of a red herring. We tax transfers at many different levels.
This. Taxes are transaction-based. We couldn't possibly tax only once if we wanted to unless every dollar was destroyed after it was taxed.
There are valid reasons for tax exemptions. "It has already been taxed" is not one of them. The same could be said for any form of tax, and usually is whenever somebody tries to get a tax repealed.
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Ashmaele
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Do church-run bookstores have to remit sales tax to the state on sales they make? I honestly do not know.
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SoBaKi
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Special-Fred posted:
Let's also shoot anyone ever found in possession of pot or other illegal drugs on site.
You're a pussy.
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SoBaKi
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cabbyman posted:
As long as we start taxing all non-profits equally then I'm all for this!
You're dumb.
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Halloweve
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I see your point.
And, no I am not even close to mad. I am almost always at an even keel.
It's hard to be mad at anything that involves logic. Everyone had different opinions and it's a good thing.
If I ask a question, it is not to be argumentive, I have a sincere interest.
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SoBaKi
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Mascara posted:
Of which, how much would you be taxed?
Significantly less than you.
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ZigmundZag
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Ashmaele posted:
Do church-run bookstores have to remit sales tax to the state on sales they make? I honestly do not know.
If it's a business I would think so. If it was one of those things where they tagged items at "suggested donation" values maybe not, but I could see state revenue offices getting wise to that pretty quickly.
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Lyken-P
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Ashmaele posted:
Do church-run bookstores have to remit sales tax to the state on sales they make? I honestly do not know.
Frequently churches operate bookstores. Bookstore operations, under normal circumstances, do not create UBI (Unrelated business income). In examining a church bookstore, the IRS determines UBI by an item-by-item analysis of the items sold. If all the items sold relate to exempt purposes, such as promoting the gospel, then the sale of those items does not create UBI. If the bookstore sells gift items or breath mints that are not related to an exempt purpose, then the sale of these items creates UBI unless one of the exceptions to UBI applies. If the bookstore is operated solely around service times, the bookstore operation will not generate UBI because it is operated solely for the convenience of its members. Also, if volunteers operate the bookstore, the substantially all-volunteer exception will apply and sales from the bookstore will not generate UBI.
....
Closely associated with UBI is sales tax. In many states, the sale of merchandise creates a taxable event requiring the church to collect sales tax on the transaction, even though the church is exempt from paying sales taxes on its purchases. In most states, churches are required to collect sales tax from their bookstore sales. The church should check with its local sales tax office to determine its responsibilities regarding sales taxes.
If you want to read the whole thing: http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/201002/201002_028_Render_Caesar.cfm
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Ashmaele
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Lyken-P posted:
Ashmaele posted:
Do church-run bookstores have to remit sales tax to the state on sales they make? I honestly do not know.
Frequently churches operate bookstores. Bookstore operations, under normal circumstances, do not create UBI (Unrelated business income). In examining a church bookstore, the IRS determines UBI by an item-by-item analysis of the items sold. If all the items sold relate to exempt purposes, such as promoting the gospel, then the sale of those items does not create UBI. If the bookstore sells gift items or breath mints that are not related to an exempt purpose, then the sale of these items creates UBI unless one of the exceptions to UBI applies. If the bookstore is operated solely around service times, the bookstore operation will not generate UBI because it is operated solely for the convenience of its members. Also, if volunteers operate the bookstore, the substantially all-volunteer exception will apply and sales from the bookstore will not generate UBI.
That's the IRS, but we don't pay sales tax to the IRS. That is collected and remitted on the state level.
Of course the law could be different in different states. I guess I could look up FL myself.
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Bonzoboy1
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My wifes church runs a low cost day care for low income families that is subsidized by the church members, is that the sort of thing you want to tax?
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Yukishiro1
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"Spreading the gospel" should not count as tax exempt charity.
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Kjarhall
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I'm sure by looking at their balance sheets we could find a way to tax them without hurting the small churches.
Such as - money that goes directly towards true charity is exempt. Repairs on buildings and grounds are exempt, expansion is not. Expenditures for clergy are not, over whatever the average COL is, etc.
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ZigmundZag
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I have no issues with churches being tax exempt, but I do think as a counterpoint that churches should not be involved in political campaigns. This seems to be happening less and less these days.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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GOD WILLS IT!
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Lyken-P
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ZigmundZag posted:
I have no issues with churches being tax exempt, but I do think as a counterpoint that churches should not be involved in political campaigns. This seems to be happening less and less these days.
And Non-Profits don't get involved?
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Z-Elder
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All mega churches making over $500,000 shouldn't be taxed because I am sure they are creating jobs in the communities. If they are making less than $75,000 tax the hell out of them! They are obviously doing it wrong so their people would be better off moving into the larger churches.
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PhillsburyBandit
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Bonzoboy1 posted:
My wifes church runs a low cost day care for low income families that is subsidized by the church members, is that the sort of thing you want to tax?
Its God's will sorry bonzo.
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ZigmundZag
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Lyken-P posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
I have no issues with churches being tax exempt, but I do think as a counterpoint that churches should not be involved in political campaigns. This seems to be happening less and less these days.
And Non-Profits don't get involved?
I don't think any nonprofit should be politically active. If you are using your resources to support a politician or a measure, those resources should be taxed same as everyone else. Yes, that includes ACORN as well as Church of the High Muckymuck or anything else, since I'm pretty sure that's where you're heading.
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Lyken-P
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ZigmundZag posted:
Lyken-P posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
I have no issues with churches being tax exempt, but I do think as a counterpoint that churches should not be involved in political campaigns. This seems to be happening less and less these days.
And Non-Profits don't get involved?
I don't think any nonprofit should be politically active. If you are using your resources to support a politician or a measure, those resources should be taxed same as everyone else. Yes, that includes ACORN as well as Church of the High Muckymuck or anything else, since I'm pretty sure that's where you're heading.
It's not just them that go directly on TV and back a candidate. There are a LOT of non-profits that use lobbyist to get themselves more funding. I know of quite a few in Chicago that do that.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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ZigmundZag posted:
Lyken-P posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
I have no issues with churches being tax exempt, but I do think as a counterpoint that churches should not be involved in political campaigns. This seems to be happening less and less these days.
And Non-Profits don't get involved?
I don't think any nonprofit should be politically active. If you are using your resources to support a politician or a measure, those resources should be taxed same as everyone else. Yes, that includes ACORN as well as Church of the High Muckymuck or anything else, since I'm pretty sure that's where you're heading.
That's been my stance for years.
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PhillsburyBandit
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Lyken-P posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
Lyken-P posted:
[quote=ZigmundZag]I have no issues with churches being tax exempt, but I do think as a counterpoint that churches should not be involved in political campaigns. This seems to be happening less and less these days.
And Non-Profits don't get involved?
I don't think any nonprofit should be politically active. If you are using your resources to support a politician or a measure, those resources should be taxed same as everyone else. Yes, that includes ACORN as well as Church of the High Muckymuck or anything else, since I'm pretty sure that's where you're heading.
It's not just them that go directly on TV and back a candidate. There are a LOT of non-profits that use lobbyist to get themselves more funding. I know of quite a few in Chicago that do that.[/quote]
This is a great example of bible thumper logic which is: screw whats right or wrong, I'm going to get what I want and I'll use religion to get it cause God is on my side.
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Lyken-P
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PhillsburyBandit posted:
My main point is starting to be overshadowed by truth. 
What can I say.... it is God's Will.
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PhillsburyBandit
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Lyken-P posted:
PhillsburyBandit posted:
My main point is starting to be overshadowed by truth.
What can I say.... it is God's Will.
I know and the best part is that I'm the one thats joking around and you aren't.
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Lyken-P
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PhillsburyBandit posted:
I know and the best part is that I'm the one thats joking around and you aren't.
God's Will is NEVER a joking matter.
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Tych2
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Lyken-P posted:
PhillsburyBandit posted:
My main point is starting to be overshadowed by truth.
What can I say.... it is God's Will.
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PhillsburyBandit
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Lyken-P posted:
PhillsburyBandit posted:
I know and the best part is that I'm the one thats joking around and you aren't.
God's Will is NEVER a joking matter.
Thats right, so whats the best part of gods will? Believing in a lie or being afraid of it? Oh and can you post that whole non profit politician supporting bullsh*t again for me clown?
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Lyken-P
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PhillsburyBandit posted:
Thats right, so whats the best part of gods will? Believing in a lie or being afraid of it? Oh and can you post that whole non profit politician supporting bullsh*t again for me clown?
The Best Part of God's Will is knowing it IS God's Will, duh.
Repost of Non Profit
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Bonzoboy1
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Labor unions are non profits right?
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NuEM
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In Germany Churches tax you!
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PhillsburyBandit
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Lyken-P posted:
PhillsburyBandit posted:
Thats right, so whats the best part of gods will? Believing in a lie or being afraid of it? Oh and can you post that whole non profit politician supporting bullsh*t again for me clown?
The Best Part of God's Will is knowing it IS God's Will, duh.
Repost of Non Profit
Hmmmm I asked God if thats true and he disagreed. He said you're just following your own will and masking it with his.
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Voodoo-Dahl
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No taxes on churches. That's where I buy my weed MF'ers!
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cabbyman
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SoBaKi posted:
cabbyman posted:
As long as we start taxing all non-profits equally then I'm all for this!
You're dumb.
Your father is ashamed of you.
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Lyken-P
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PhillsburyBandit posted:
Hmmmm I asked God if thats true and he disagreed. He said you're just following your own will and masking it with his.
That is something for you and God to work out. The good part is, that you've opened a line of communication. 
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PhillsburyBandit
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Lyken-P posted:
PhillsburyBandit posted:
Hmmmm I asked God if thats true and he disagreed. He said you're just following your own will and masking it with his.
That is something for you and God to work out. The good part is, that you've opened a line of communication.
Lol you don't even refute my post. Its like you know deep down religion really is bullsh*t but you just don't wanna "chance it".
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Eager_Igraine
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Taliesihne posted:
I'm all for stopping the state subsidization of religion.
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Lyken-P
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PhillsburyBandit posted:
Lol you don't even refute my post. Its like you know deep down religion really is bullsh*t but you just don't wanna "chance it".
There is nothing to refute... you are talking to God.
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PhillsburyBandit
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Lyken-P posted:
PhillsburyBandit posted:
Lol you don't even refute my post. Its like you know deep down religion really is bullsh*t but you just don't wanna "chance it".
There is nothing to refute... you are talking to God.
Yeah its God's will! Is this God's will too?
http://thereligionofpeace.com/
Seems like christians entice people into their religion through false promises which seems pretty evil to me which just justifies taxing churches even more so they can exploit people less through their financial, emotional, and physical pain.
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Lyken-P
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PhillsburyBandit posted:
Yeah its God's will! Is this God's will too?
http://thereligionofpeace.com/
Seems like christians entice people into their religion through false promises which seems pretty evil to me which just justifies taxing churches even more so they can exploit people less through their financial, emotional, and physical pain.
You ask me about other people's intentions and beliefs? I don't know how to break this to you... but I'm not God. You just had a conversation with him about my statements, why don't you ask him about his website?
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PhillsburyBandit
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Lyken-P posted:
PhillsburyBandit posted:
Yeah its God's will! Is this God's will too?
http://thereligionofpeace.com/
Seems like christians entice people into their religion through false promises which seems pretty evil to me which just justifies taxing churches even more so they can exploit people less through their financial, emotional, and physical pain.
You ask me about other people's intentions and beliefs? I don't know how to break this to you... but I'm not God. You just had a conversation with him about my statements, why don't you ask him about his website?
Awww I was hoping you could justify people having religious beliefs like that but you came up short. Oh well.
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Lyken-P
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PhillsburyBandit posted:
Awww I was hoping you could justify people having religious beliefs like that but you came up short. Oh well.
... again... not the person nor God.
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PhillsburyBandit
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Lyken-P posted:
PhillsburyBandit posted:
Awww I was hoping you could justify people having religious beliefs like that but you came up short. Oh well.
... again... not the person nor God.
That doesn't make sense. You know why? Because it requires logic, something religion lacks.
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smellymotor
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i think churches here are taxed. not on donations but on profits they make from selling books or running any kind of business that makes a profit (day care, cafe etc)
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__Bonk__
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Churches shouldnt get total taxation. They should be tax free for ONLY their charatable works. The rest should all be taxed
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