Nestor_II
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White House Budget Director Cuts The Legs Out From Under Obamacare…
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http://weaselzippers.us/2012/02/15/white-house-budget-director-cuts-the-legs-out-from-under-the-admins-supreme-court-legal-argument-for-obamacare/
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Rhodoman
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My biggest disappointment is that our Congress didn't laugh this legislation out of the capital for being a ridiculously bad idea and instead has to fall back on the argument that it is unconstitutional.
Rho
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aon_mixed
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WAAAAKE UP CALL
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-Foxy-
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LOL!
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Aerlinthian
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I have all of three percent confidence that this will go anywhere.
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Arc_DT
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Subject:
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Rhodoman posted:
My biggest disappointment is that our Congress didn't laugh this legislation out of the capital for being a ridiculously bad idea and instead has to fall back on the argument that it is unconstitutional.
I understand the argument for it not being constitutional, but you need to explain to me precisely how it's "ridiculous." I'm sure you have a well-reasoned opinion on this and not just mouth diarrhea, as you somehow see it as the more compelling argument against Obamacare. I eagerly await this enlightenment.
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Arc_DT
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Subject:
White House Budget Director Cuts The Legs Out From Under Obamacare…
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Nestor_II posted:
http://weaselzippers.us/2012/02/15/white-house-budget-director-cuts-the-legs-out-from-under-the-admins-supreme-court-legal-argument-f or-obamacare/
If your intent was to demonstrate how asinine and idiotic the Right is in construing arguments against Obamacare, then congratulations. This was a stretch of logic that would even make BT feel uncomfortable. Hell, it DID make Aerlinthian feel uncomfortable!
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Rhodoman
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Obamacare was health care reform in the exact opposite direction from what would be helpful.
We need to drop the requirement that employers provide health insurance and we need to allow people to buy their own insurance instead. Also, deregulate the insurance industry so that it can offer the same policy to people in multiple states.
Adding MORE government involvement in the health care business was exactly the wrong thing to have done.
That's why I called it ridiculous.
Rho
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Arc_DT
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Subject:
White House Budget Director Cuts The Legs Out From Under Obamacare…
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Rhodoman posted:
We need to drop the requirement that employers provide health insurance and we need to allow people to buy their own insurance instead. Also, deregulate the insurance industry
Oh, so it was YOU that was ridiculous. You suggest that people be forced out of pools and buy from insurers who do not have to accept them, resulting in no one getting coverage that actually needs it. Gotcha.
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Rhodoman
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Subject:
White House Budget Director Cuts The Legs Out From Under Obamacare…
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Arc_DT posted:
Rhodoman posted:
We need to drop the requirement that employers provide health insurance and we need to allow people to buy their own insurance instead. Also, deregulate the insurance industry
Oh, so it was YOU that was ridiculous. You suggest that people be forced out of pools and buy from insurers who do not have to accept them, resulting in no one getting coverage that actually needs it. Gotcha.
I suggest that everyone have the freedom to purchase whatever health insurance policy they desire and can afford.
If you can't understand how that will make everything associated with health care less expensive and more accessible, I cannot help you.
Rho
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Arc_DT
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Subject:
White House Budget Director Cuts The Legs Out From Under Obamacare…
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Rhodoman posted:
I suggest that everyone have the freedom to purchase whatever health insurance policy they desire and can afford.
If you can't understand how that will make everything associated with health care less expensive and more accessible, I cannot help you.
Rho
I agree 100%.
You just described Obamacare. That's what it does.
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Rhodoman
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Subject:
White House Budget Director Cuts The Legs Out From Under Obamacare…
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Arc_DT posted:
You just described Obamacare. That's what it does.
Incorrect.
Rho
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Mangler_SC
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There is no helping you.
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Arc_DT
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Subject:
White House Budget Director Cuts The Legs Out From Under Obamacare…
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Rhodoman posted:
Arc_DT posted:
You just described Obamacare. That's what it does.
Incorrect.
Rho
No, you're wrong.
See? We can do this all night. Or you could go find some f**king evidence.
Obamacare does these things:
1. Requires all health coverage providers to accept all customers, regardless of preexisting conditions.
- Otherwise, people won't be able to "buy whatever coverage they like and can afford" because those who need it will simply be rejected.
2. Mandates that everyone buys some form of coverage.
- Otherwise, people will wait until they get sick to get coverage, as they can no longer be denied. This would skyrocket premiums because of adverse selection.
3. Defines what health coverage is.
- Otherwise, the mandate is meaningless. People will buy "health coverage" on late night informercials for three easy payments of $19.95 instead of getting a plan that actually covers anything.
4. Subsidizes people who can't afford the insurance with vouchers.
- Because a bare mandate is going to be insufficient to actually get people coverage who can't afford it, and without everybody on board, all of the prior work falls apart. The fact that it's a humane thing to do is actually pretty far down the list on why it's a good idea and necessary to do.
5. Creates an exchange where it's easy to compare and purchase private plans.
Things it does NOT do:
A. A government takeover of health care. This is not socialized medicine, because the government does not provide the health care services. This is not government managed, because the government also does not provide insurance services beyond existing programs. This is not even single payer, because the government is not directly paying insurers.
B. Mandate that employers provide health care to their employees. Small companies are completely exempt, and large companies are given the option to instead pay into a fund to cover subsidies for low-income people. The payout is FAR cheaper than coverage.
C. Dictate to anyone who their providers are physicians are.
But feel free to so back and try to retort this in monosyllables. You need to spit out the koolaid. A mandate is possibly unconstitutional, but the plan is by no means "ridiculous."
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Rhodoman
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Mangler's right. You just supported my argument for me.
Rho
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.-Vega-.
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Medical professionals already lose a lot of income due to government Medicare and Medicaid. Obamacare would have caused a massive disaster in the health care industry as doctors would either have to lose a massive amount of their income or have to turn away patients with government healthcare.
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Arc_DT
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.-Vega-. posted:
Medical professionals already lose a lot of income due to government Medicare and Medicaid. Obamacare would have caused a massive disaster in the health care industry as doctors would either have to lose a massive amount of their income or have to turn away patients with government healthcare.
You mean medical professionals already GAIN a SUBSTANTIAL portion of their income because the government subsidizes the uninsurable elderly and the poor who couldn't afford their services otherwise. No practice is forced to accept medicare and medicaid. Almost all of them do because it's $$$ they wouldn't have otherwise.
I suppose next you're going to chase your tail by saying that these programs are simultaneously starving providers and driving up the cost of healthcare by increasing the demand. I suggest a good education to clear up this mental defect.
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Arc_DT
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Rhodoman posted:
Mangler's right. You just supported my argument for me.
Rho
I already knew that you didn't have the capacity to actually critique my points, but it's nice to have you openly admit defeat like this by not even trying.
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Rhodoman
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I'm note sure what I like more, that you make absolutely no logical sense in your statements or that you insist on insulting the people you're arguing with at the same time.
Rho
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.-Vega-.
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My post was summarizing a conversation with a general practitioner who is a family friend. But I'm sure your input is much more credible and worthwhile.
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Arc_DT
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.-Vega-. posted:
My post was summarizing a conversation with a general practitioner who is a family friend. But I'm sure your input is much more credible and worthwhile.
He sees only the difference between what he'd like to charge and what he can charge. He doesn't see the complete loss of business from those sectors without the subsidies and the market forces that would force what he charges to others dropping substantially because of the lowered demand for his services. His standard of living would be reduced substantially if his wish came true.
The fact that he's a physician by no means gives him any special insight into this process, and I can dig up plenty of quotes from other physicians to counter him if it did.
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Arc_DT
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Rhodoman posted:
I'm note sure what I like more, that you make absolutely no logical sense in your statements or that you insist on insulting the people you're arguing with at the same time.
Rho
Actually make a point, please. You have yet to offer anything to this discussion. Feel free to dissect anything I've posted, or make a rational point of your own. You can do neither, and I insult you because you are completely incapable of doing so yet still think you have any purpose on this thread.
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Rhodoman
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Again you manage to do both at once. Astounding.
But let's look at what your 5 items.
1. Requires all health coverage providers to accept all customers, regardless of preexisting conditions.
This will either drive the cost of coverage WAY up or drive insurers completely out of the business.
2. Mandates that everyone buys some form of coverage.
This is completely consistent with the idea of "government control of the health care industry".
3. Defines what health coverage is.
If the government is who gets to decide on what policies are offered, the public hardly has a free choice on what to buy. (see "government control of the health care industry", above)
4. Subsidizes people who can't afford the insurance with vouchers.
Because of the effects of the three items above, government's direct funding of people's health coverage will be almost complete because more people will be unable to afford it and fewer policies will be available.
5. Creates an exchange where it's easy to compare and purchase private plans.
A meaningless and useless tool when the market is so completely horked by the government's over-involvement.
All five of these items point out why Obamacare's "reform" is bad for America's health care as well as wasting even more of our public money than we are already.
Rho
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Aerlinthian
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Arc_DT posted:
He sees only the difference between what he'd like to charge and what he can charge.
Assuming this is a factually accurate statement...thank you for admitting that we have gone down the road of fascism.
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Wow if you can't see the wrong in Obama care just kill yourself now, rofl
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Rhodoman
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Asheron- posted:
Wow if you can't see the wrong in Obama care just kill yourself now, rofl
Nice call.
Rho
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Wulfgarr
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There have been some interesting unintended consequences to medicare/medicaid's reimbursement scheme. (Keratometry?)
But considering that 70% of bankruptcies in the US are now due to medical bills, and 75% of those people have private insurance, it seems a grave injustice to do nothing about health care costs and insurance in this country.
I do not know the ultimate answer, but if the banking industry is any indication (and it most certainly is given how crooked physicians can be, based on how they treat patients based on what they can get back from medicare), the worst thing we could possibly do is to deregulate the insurance industry and basically guarantee only those who do not need insurance will be the ones who pay for it and those who need it die, and it's a shame that 45,000 people a year already do die because they lack insurance and access to care.
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AliHajiSheik
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Obama wanted to create a safety net for healthcare for everyone. I accept that point.
The problem is his solution for it (or was it really Congress' solution that he went along with?) attempt to control too much. People measure healthcare by the fact that it costs them $10, $15, or $20 to see a doctor and when they get their lab results they are told they are "fine" and get a bill for $300.
Catastrophic healthcare coverage for everyone at some high threshold provided by the government through a dedicated tax or fee would more palatable to most of the country than either doing nothing or mandating 100% of everything would do.
Perhaps something akin to the National Flood Insurance program. Reduces the risk for insurance companies to provide affordable insurance policies and protects everyone against catastrophic medical bills.
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Caledric
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Arc... give up. They won't support it until Romney's version (the exact same thing mind you) takes it's place. I wonder at what point the Repubs are going to realize that Romney = 4 more years of Obama, just a different skin color.
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Subject:
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AliHajiSheik posted:
Obama wanted to create a safety net for healthcare for everyone. I accept that point.
The problem is his solution for it (or was it really Congress' solution that he went along with?) attempt to control too much. People measure healthcare by the fact that it costs them $10, $15, or $20 to see a doctor and when they get their lab results they are told they are "fine" and get a bill for $300.
Catastrophic healthcare coverage for everyone at some high threshold provided by the government through a dedicated tax or fee would more palatable to most of the country than either doing nothing or mandating 100% of everything would do.
Perhaps something akin to the National Flood Insurance program. Reduces the risk for insurance companies to provide affordable insurance policies and protects everyone against catastrophic medical bills.
problem with that is the insurance companies would stop covering hospital all together when they can get the gov to pay it.
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Wulfgarr posted:
There have been some interesting unintended consequences to medicare/medicaid's reimbursement scheme. (Keratometry?)
But considering that 70% of bankruptcies in the US are now due to medical bills, and 75% of those people have private insurance, it seems a grave injustice to do nothing about health care costs and insurance in this country.
I do not know the ultimate answer, but if the banking industry is any indication (and it most certainly is given how crooked physicians can be, based on how they treat patients based on what they can get back from medicare), the worst thing we could possibly do is to deregulate the insurance industry and basically guarantee only those who do not need insurance will be the ones who pay for it and those who need it die, and it's a shame that 45,000 people a year already do die because they lack insurance and access to care.
50,000 people die every year from car accidents and MOST OF THEM HAS FULL CAR INSURANCE!!!!!!!!!!!! How to fix??
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Arc_DT
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Rhodoman posted:
Again you manage to do both at once. Astounding.
But let's look at what your 5 items.
1. Requires all health coverage providers to accept all customers, regardless of preexisting conditions.
This will either drive the cost of coverage WAY up or drive insurers completely out of the business.
No need to go any further... what you're advocating is that insurers should be allowed to deny people with preexisting conditions. Combine that with with your earlier assertion that people should buy policies as individuals instead of through their employers, and that means that you intend for costs to go down via lowered demand because people who can't get coverage should just die.
I don't doubt that you will find this characterization flattering, but it also makes you a sociopath. Try to hide it all you want, but that's what your "plan" boils down to. At least in the current system, people with full time jobs are pretty much forced into an insurance pool AND there's regulation that forbids insurance companies from denying those with preexisting conditions IF they had insurance (not coverage) within six months prior.
Your plan makes things far worse.
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MICHIGAN - Where the trees are the right height!
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Arc_DT
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White House Budget Director Cuts The Legs Out From Under Obamacare…
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Aerlinthian posted:
Arc_DT posted:
He sees only the difference between what he'd like to charge and what he can charge.
Assuming this is a factually accurate statement...thank you for admitting that we have gone down the road of fascism.
Your holy free market is built on that principle... the "invisible hand" mandates what the seller can charge. They all have a gap between what they'd like to charge and can charge. The physician can charge whatever he wants; he's just not going to get any customers.
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MICHIGAN - Where the trees are the right height!
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Arc_DT
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White House Budget Director Cuts The Legs Out From Under Obamacare…
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Asheron- posted:
Wow if you can't see the wrong in Obama care just kill yourself now, rofl
If you can't articulate what you see wrong with Obamacare, then just kill yourself now, rofl
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MICHIGAN - Where the trees are the right height!
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Arc_DT
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White House Budget Director Cuts The Legs Out From Under Obamacare…
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Caledric posted:
Arc... give up. They won't support it until Romney's version (the exact same thing mind you) takes it's place. I wonder at what point the Repubs are going to realize that Romney = 4 more years of Obama, just a different skin color.
I'm not trying to change their minds. I'm trying to get them to defend their positions instead of "because Rush told me lol." I got Rho to admit that he's a sociopath, so that's a check mark in the plus column for me.
Obamacare might be unconstitutional because of the mandate, but that doesn't make it "ridiculous" or even a bad idea. It's the only workable scenario between what we have now and single payer, which is clearly constitutional but certain to be even less popular. If it is rejected for this in the supreme court, expect a renewed push for single payer, because the current system is not sustainable -- it provides too little coverage at too high of a cost.
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MICHIGAN - Where the trees are the right height!
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Rhodoman
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I'm going to go back to Mangler's conclusion, then. It makes a lot more sense than me being a sociopath. 
Good luck.
Rho
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combat_mage_sc
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Arc-tard is affecteeeeeeeeed.
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JD_HOGG
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I don't see why we need a layer we call insurance companies to pay for our health care. Why can't doctors work it out with their customers like every other service professional does?
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JD_HOGG
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White House Budget Director Cuts The Legs Out From Under Obamacare…
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Arc_DT posted:
Asheron- posted:
Wow if you can't see the wrong in Obama care just kill yourself now, rofl
If you can't articulate what you see wrong with Obamacare, then just kill yourself now, rofl
What is wrong with Obamacare is that it requires everyone to purchase a very expensive product that they might not ever use.
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Rhodoman
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White House Budget Director Cuts The Legs Out From Under Obamacare…
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JD_HOGG posted:
I don't see why we need a layer we call insurance companies to pay for our health care. Why can't doctors work it out with their customers like every other service professional does?
Because we are too stupid and incompetent to look after ourselves. This is the overarching assumption behind almost any nanny state program.
Rho
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Venit hiems quidquid Latine dictum sit altum viditur
Referring to illegal aliens as 'immigrants' is the same as referring to shoplifters as 'shoppers' - Dorvinion
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JD_HOGG
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Because everyone will die if we have to pay doctors directly!!!
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Rhodoman
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The misery of bad health care must be distributed evenly.
Rho
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Rho is correct. - Varece
Venit hiems quidquid Latine dictum sit altum viditur
Referring to illegal aliens as 'immigrants' is the same as referring to shoplifters as 'shoppers' - Dorvinion
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TheUnholyGhost
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Didn't they sneak some 3.8% tax on selling your home in that bill that goes into effect in 2013?
Has anyone made a stink about that yet?
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JD_HOGG
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White House Budget Director Cuts The Legs Out From Under Obamacare…
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TheUnholyGhost posted:
Didn't they sneak some 3.8% tax on selling your home in that bill that goes into effect in 2013?
Has anyone made a stink about that yet?
I can't wait to hear the LULZ from people when that kicks in, and the IRS starts keeping people's refunds because they didn't meet the mandate.
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