Rosaria posted:

---

Yah, because in the course of human history no country has invaded and occupied another country to capture its natural resources of which oil tops the list. Iran is behaving stupidly; unfortunately its the Iranian citizens who are suffering.

---

Bowlartz posted:

---

"In the meantime it will cripple most of Europe and drive the price of oil to economy popping levels..."


It went up to 102...hardly popping. Saudi Arabia has already said it will increase production to cover any Iranian oil short falls.

Now, when Israel bombs Iran...then you will see oil at 200+. Totally different ball game.

---

Taliesihne posted:

---

I just don't get the cheerleading for another war.

Is your life so terrible that this is the only excitement you can find?

We've seen multiple threads on Iran recently where folks are giddily anticipating war. War is terrible for everyone involved. It's evil - sometimes a necessary evil, but make no mistake about it, war is awful. No one wins - someone just loses less then the other person.

I simply don't understand this phenomena so accurately depicted by people like Loon, Kamdar and Metalface.

---

imaloon1 posted:

---

Taliesihne posted:

---

I just don't get the cheerleading for another war.

Is your life so terrible that this is the only excitement you can find?

We've seen multiple threads on Iran recently where folks are giddily anticipating war. War is terrible for everyone involved. It's evil - sometimes a necessary evil, but make no mistake about it, war is awful. No one wins - someone just loses less then the other person.

I simply don't understand this phenomena so accurately depicted by people like Loon, Kamdar and Metalface.

---

YOU WILL NEVER IN YOUR WILDEST DREAM HEAR ME CHEERLEAD FOR WAR.


If this is what Iran thinks it needs to do in order to preserve it's sovereignty as a nation so be it we've done nothing but poke and prod that country for 40 years as if we had any right to do so. You'd better check yourself if you're going to call me a warmonger...

---

imaloon1 posted:

---

You mess with the bull with the oil and you get the horn amirite EUROPA!?!?!?!


PWNED

---

imaloon1 posted:

---

What are they supposed to do? Put up with the sanctions that Europe was originally NOT going to enforce until WE stepped in?

---

Ashmaele posted:

---

imaloon1 posted:

---

What are they supposed to do? Put up with the sanctions that Europe was originally NOT going to enforce until WE stepped in?

---

Not openly supporting terrorist organizations would be a good start.

---

Ashmaele posted:

---

terrorist organizations

---

imaloon1 posted:

---

Bowlartz posted:

---

"In the meantime it will cripple most of Europe and drive the price of oil to economy popping levels..."


It went up to 102...hardly popping. Saudi Arabia has already said it will increase production to cover any Iranian oil short falls.

Now, when Israel bombs Iran...then you will see oil at 200+. Totally different ball game.

---

You're such an idiot... Saudi Arabia can't even keep up with it's own production declines there will be no increase in output from them. Congrats on believing the hype though.


And Rosie you are right, the Iranian people suffer just as much as we do in times like these, it's unfortunate that we can't have regime change in both areas that desperately need it.

---

Ashmaele posted:

---

imaloon1 posted:

---

What are they supposed to do? Put up with the sanctions that Europe was originally NOT going to enforce until WE stepped in?

---

Not openly supporting terrorist organizations would be a good start.

---

imaloon1 posted:

---

What are they supposed to do? Put up with the sanctions that Europe was originally NOT going to enforce until WE stepped in?


They're supposed to just say umm ok... ya even though we've let every inspector known into our facilities and it's shown time and time again that we're not enriching uranium to weapons grade levels you're still trying to IRAQ us with your sanctions, we'll just stop being a country and start being a vassal...

---

http://vnboards.ign.com/Boards/Message.aspx?brd=22180&topic=113982563&start=113991744

Congressman Ron Paul Speaks Out AGAINST War With IRAN - April 2006
44:16 - 4 years ago
Ron Paul addresses the House of Representitives against the bi-partisan tide of war-mongerers. He gives an excellent historical case on why and how this deception of an "Iran Threat" is being laid on the public. He addresses U.S. involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan, the recent elections in Pakistan, the nuclear capabilities of India, Pakistan, North Korea and Israel. He also goes in depth at the economic consequences to the Average American, and how Congress has forfeighted its "powers to declare war" to the administrative branch.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7456931596878368112#

imaloon1 posted:

---

Ashmaele posted:

---

imaloon1 posted:

---

What are they supposed to do? Put up with the sanctions that Europe was originally NOT going to enforce until WE stepped in?

---

Not openly supporting terrorist organizations would be a good start.

---

For the record who gives a good goddamn who they support? Last time I checked the hijackers weren't Iranian they were Saudi...

---

Bowlartz posted:

---

imaloon1 posted:

---

Ashmaele posted:

---

[quote=imaloon1]What are they supposed to do? Put up with the sanctions that Europe was originally NOT going to enforce until WE stepped in?

---

Not openly supporting terrorist organizations would be a good start.

---

For the record who gives a good goddamn who they support? Last time I checked the hijackers weren't Iranian they were Saudi...

---

imaloon1 posted:

---

C. I'm sorry that you think you have an argument but using CNN to make your argument means that you actually do not in fact have an argument.

---

Bowlartz posted:

---

I just did the math. Iran's move is essentially meaningless. That is why Oil had zero reaction to it unlike when Israel bombs them. Oil will shoot up 100 bucks a barrel inside of 10 minutes once that happens.

---

imaloon1 posted:

---

A. 2017 is not 2012 and has no basis in reality for those production goals in Iraq.


B. I can only tell you so many times that no matter what Saudi Arabia may say about their plans to increase production it is false, they are running flat out and injecting water into their super giant fields as we speak in order to keep pressures up high enough to maintain what production they even have.

C. I'm sorry that you think you have an argument but using CNN to make your argument means that you actually do not in fact have an argument.

---

Bowlartz posted:

---

imaloon1 posted:

---

A. 2017 is not 2012 and has no basis in reality for those production goals in Iraq.


B. I can only tell you so many times that no matter what Saudi Arabia may say about their plans to increase production it is false, they are running flat out and injecting water into their super giant fields as we speak in order to keep pressures up high enough to maintain what production they even have.

C. I'm sorry that you think you have an argument but using CNN to make your argument means that you actually do not in fact have an argument.

---

So you will just ignore everything that disproves your view, common around here. You still can't explain for one second why hypersensitive oil markets didn't budge on this news. A pipeline fire in Nigeria would have had a 5 dollar plus effect yet Iran not delivering to 6 of 27 countries in Europe doesn't even move them a bit.

Either Iran's announcement is meaningless as I surmise or you know more about the oil markets than the oil markets themselves.

---

Rosaria posted:

---

Bowlartz posted:

---

I just did the math. Iran's move is essentially meaningless. That is why Oil had zero reaction to it unlike when Israel bombs them. Oil will shoot up 100 bucks a barrel inside of 10 minutes once that happens.

---

Oil futures will not perform that way just as they did not during the seige, sorry I meant liberation, of Libya. There are built in mechanisms and rules in place that would stopgap any horrific change in oil prices in one day or one trading session. Oil prices will continue to gently spiral upwards over the next several months but there will be no 14$USD/gallon overnight nor over a week for that matter.

---

Bowlartz posted:

---

Rosaria posted:

---

Bowlartz posted:

---

I just did the math. Iran's move is essentially meaningless. That is why Oil had zero reaction to it unlike when Israel bombs them. Oil will shoot up 100 bucks a barrel inside of 10 minutes once that happens.

---

Oil futures will not perform that way just as they did not during the seige, sorry I meant liberation, of Libya. There are built in mechanisms and rules in place that would stopgap any horrific change in oil prices in one day or one trading session. Oil prices will continue to gently spiral upwards over the next several months but there will be no 14$USD/gallon overnight nor over a week for that matter.

---

Oil prices due to Libya rose 20 dollars a barrel at the time. The only reason it didn't have more of an effect was due to when it happened, between the home heating oil and spring heavy driving seasons of the US which is late Feb-Mar. I have no idea where you get the idea that situation had no effect it most certainly did.

Contrary to that situation, Iran's announcement has had zero, none, nada, zip effect.

---

Modeeb posted:

---

Some of the most intelligent people I have met are Iranian. I tend to believe what Ptilk says in this instance. I might go a step further: The Secular will eventually hang the Ayoltollahs or at least put them in their place, which is in a friggin mosque. There is more here than meets the eye. I never understood why Pakistan can have a bomb and Iran cant.

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

The US has been hoping for a long time that Iran will revolt but I think the US is better off just stealing their smart people.

---

Bowlartz posted:

---

Rosaria posted:

---

Bowlartz posted:

---

I just did the math. Iran's move is essentially meaningless. That is why Oil had zero reaction to it unlike when Israel bombs them. Oil will shoot up 100 bucks a barrel inside of 10 minutes once that happens.

---

Oil futures will not perform that way just as they did not during the seige, sorry I meant liberation, of Libya. There are built in mechanisms and rules in place that would stopgap any horrific change in oil prices in one day or one trading session. Oil prices will continue to gently spiral upwards over the next several months but there will be no 14$USD/gallon overnight nor over a week for that matter.

---

Oil prices due to Libya rose 20 dollars a barrel at the time. The only reason it didn't have more of an effect was due to when it happened, between the home heating oil and spring heavy driving seasons of the US which is late Feb-Mar. I have no idea where you get the idea that situation had no effect it most certainly did.

Contrary to that situation, Iran's announcement has had zero, none, nada, zip effect.

---

Ptilk posted:

---

The US, along with and in support of Israel, is the god damn idiot in this situation.

Our embargo is a fricken sham, all it does is allow the State Dept. to hand out special privileges to connected people and companies to do business with Iran, and make it look like we are "being tough" on them. On our side anyway, on the Iranian side it has led to much higher prices, shortages of basic goods, and repression of the people, and their movement to create a real democracy.

It's such total BS. The constant saber rattling by the military and the neo-cons AND the Democrats who see a profit in it for themselves, either financially or in the voting booth, is ridiculous. Absolute and total nonsense. Iran poses no threat to the US, at all, none. Ok, maybe about as much as Switzerland does, or maybe Botswana.

Iran is ripe for secular minded democracy, it would already be there (it already WAS there) if not for the US and it's stupid war mongering BS. Our government seems to want to prop up the insane Mullahs and radical theocrats who currently rule the country.

Why? Lots of reasons. They see doing so as "Pro-Israel" and that plays well in the voting booth and in campaign donations. It allows them to dole out those special privileges to conduct trade and all the campaign money that brings in. It gives them a reason to continue spending obscene amounts of money on the military and all the campaign money that brings in from defense contractors and associated industries. It makes some of those old men feel young, tough and viral again (Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran). It keeps Americans afraid of shit, and afraid people will allow you to do anything to "save them". And finally, it's been a plan to subjugate the country for so long inside of DC, that the career GS corps is full of people who can't imagine doing anything else.

Iran will be fine, if we just leave them the hell alone, stop the embargo crap, and just let the people of Iran fix their own god damn problems.

---

reesescups posted:

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

The US has been hoping for a long time that Iran will revolt but I think the US is better off just stealing their smart people.

---

We assassinated their leader in 53 for messing up the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company's negotiation by nationalizing their oil industry, we put in a puppet completed the negotiations, rapped their resources, they revolted in 79...

---

__Bonk__ posted:

---

Its now up to China and Russia to stop the West from going to war with Iran!

---

__Bonk__ posted:

---

China and RUssia can stop any UN resolution. Hope they veto the hell out of any resolution

---

uglydwarf posted:

---

Israel has had nukes since the 60's, and has not used them, despite countless provocations. if /when iran gets nukes, i predict within 3 years after, either iran will use one on israel or the U.S., or give one to some RIF group, who will use it on israel, or the U.S. and within 24 hours of that, iran will be a glowing glass parking lot.

---

Rosaria posted:

---

The US has already reacted with increased sanctions. It has a lot of fear to play with. In the EU it is very possible that you will end up seeing a demand for oil going down and prices increasing. If there is an overall suppression in the markets the price of oil in all its manifestations will go up further. I really don't know how much wiggle room there would be for an invasion or war with Iran without calculating in further manipulation of the petrodollar.

---

__Bonk__ posted:

---

Why are some people happy the US gets into another war?

---

NuEM posted:

---

The people of Iran are not our enemy. I hope we don't have another stupid war. That being said if I had to pick a target it would be Saudi Arabia.

---

Mastara posted:

---

time for israel to sh!te or get off the crapper. Stop threatening and either do something or dont. Dont let people think you wont. Stand by your word.

---

Altra_Shadowstalker posted:

---

Rosaria posted:

---

The US has already reacted with increased sanctions. It has a lot of fear to play with. In the EU it is very possible that you will end up seeing a demand for oil going down and prices increasing. If there is an overall suppression in the markets the price of oil in all its manifestations will go up further. I really don't know how much wiggle room there would be for an invasion or war with Iran without calculating in further manipulation of the petrodollar.

---

I mean if they feel the need to intercede with these four countries and whether they'll use the carrot or the stick to prevent signing a long term deal, if that would supersede sanctions, or later be an incentive to deny more sanctions.

---

cabbyman posted:

---

I can't wait until Iran is burning.

BURNING IN THE HELLFIRES THAT IT CREATED!!!!!!!

---

Thugoneous posted:

---

FYI. Nazi's want to kill the Jews first not Brown people.

I think you are looking for the term ZIONISTS!

HTH.

---

Bonzoboy1 posted:

---

__Bonk__ posted:

---

China and RUssia can stop any UN resolution. Hope they veto the hell out of any resolution

---

You think Israel will pay any attention to a U.N. resolution if they feel they need to take out the Iranian nukes?

---

Orwyn_Blackheart posted:

---

Pretty sure I was looking for the term Nazi, you don't know the difference in meanings between the words, probably due to all those torpedoes fired into your porthole that messed up your brain while on ship... Also like it or not Jewish people come from brown stock.....

---

Thugoneous posted:

---

Orwyn_Blackheart posted:

---

Pretty sure I was looking for the term Nazi, you don't know the difference in meanings between the words, probably due to all those torpedoes fired into your porthole that messed up your brain while on ship... Also like it or not Jewish people come from brown stock.....

---

Got it, you're ignorant and a bigot.

---

imaloon1 posted:

---

I'm pretty sure Rosie is painting a picture here that is about 90% correct. I wonder though how this differs from Saddam's Oil for food program...

---

NuEM posted:

---

Seriously, how do we solve this?

---

Rosaria posted:

---

NuEM posted:

---

Seriously, how do we solve this?

---

Easily. Drop all sanctions, open up trade with Iran, meet and greet the people by heavily promoting tourism, institute foreign exchange programs that are well funded, open up business exchanges, import more Western music, import Iranian goods [something more than their unbelievably gorgeous rugs] and open up the Internet to the Iranian people. And most importantly, the next time the Iranian people ask for help, give it to them.

Iran is not Cuba. They have something everyone else wants. We have what they want. This should not be rocket science.

---

NuEM posted:

---

Rosaria posted:

---

NuEM posted:

---

Seriously, how do we solve this?

---

Easily. Drop all sanctions, open up trade with Iran, meet and greet the people by heavily promoting tourism, institute foreign exchange programs that are well funded, open up business exchanges, import more Western music, import Iranian goods [something more than their unbelievably gorgeous rugs] and open up the Internet to the Iranian people. And most importantly, the next time the Iranian people ask for help, give it to them.

Iran is not Cuba. They have something everyone else wants. We have what they want. This should not be rocket science.

---

Okay and officially let everyone who wants to get the bomb? What if someone feels threatened by that? Is that not a legitimate reaction?

---

Altra_Shadowstalker posted:

---

The problem is, all American tourists in Iran are spies in the Iranian eyes. Heavily promoting tourism is heavily promoting POWs.

---

Rosaria posted:

---

Altra_Shadowstalker posted:

---

The problem is, all American tourists in Iran are spies in the Iranian eyes. Heavily promoting tourism is heavily promoting POWs.

---

That's something that is negotiated on a diplomatic level before open tourism is initiated. We already did this with Jordan, who now has English speaking hospitals that accept privately insured patients from the US, EU, and Canada because of their rates and the high level of care they offer patients. Jordan expands its tourism, medical or not, and they continue to send medical students to the US. Jordan has more displaced Palestinians living in their country than the West Bank, and so far all of the medical tourists have come back. The West also has a student placement program with them which is going to be adopted by Saudi Arabia. Of course, the discovery of rich plutonium deposits in Jordan has nothing to do with it.

---

Rosaria posted:

---

NuEM posted:

---

Seriously, how do we solve this?

---

Easily. Drop all sanctions, open up trade with Iran, meet and greet the people by heavily promoting tourism, institute foreign exchange programs that are well funded, open up business exchanges, import more Western music, import Iranian goods [something more than their unbelievably gorgeous rugs] and open up the Internet to the Iranian people. And most importantly, the next time the Iranian people ask for help, give it to them.

Iran is not Cuba. They have something everyone else wants. We have what they want. This should not be rocket science.

---

Rosaria posted:

---

Pakistan has nukes. They're horribly unstable and unreliable, even to the Pakistanis. I don't care who has nukes or doesn't have nukes. Eventually, all countries will own them because it will be impossible to be taken seriously without them. Is that threatening to me personally? Yes. Going to war with Iran is even more threatening to me.

---

Rosaria posted:

---

NuEM posted:

---

Seriously, how do we solve this?

---

Easily. Drop all sanctions, open up trade with Iran, meet and greet the people by heavily promoting tourism, institute foreign exchange programs that are well funded, open up business exchanges, import more Western music, import Iranian goods [something more than their unbelievably gorgeous rugs] and open up the Internet to the Iranian people. And most importantly, the next time the Iranian people ask for help, give it to them.

Iran is not Cuba. They have something everyone else wants. We have what they want. This should not be rocket science.

---

NuEM posted:

---

Rosaria posted:

---

Pakistan has nukes. They're horribly unstable and unreliable, even to the Pakistanis. I don't care who has nukes or doesn't have nukes. Eventually, all countries will own them because it will be impossible to be taken seriously without them. Is that threatening to me personally? Yes. Going to war with Iran is even more threatening to me.

---

I am very inclined to agree with you. But "Country X has nukes" doesn't seem sufficient enough of an excuse for allowing country Y to have nukes too. At least if there is for example country Z, which may be willing to go to war to prevent country Y from getting nukes.

Do we just stay the eff out of all that? I am not convinced. There's too many places where those who nourish off of conflict still have power over those who've understood the advantages of peaceful cooperation.

I feel like we're heading towards disaster. Disaster that could be avoided, yet no one seems willing or able to even try. It's like WWI all over again.

---

NuEM posted:

---

I think you are too eager to dismiss "fear". Yeah "we" (whoever that is) fear a nuclear Iran. Some of "us" are likely to act at some point based on their fear and there's nothing the rest of "us" can do to stop them.

I know what game Iran is playing. Or rather what game those pulling the strings in Iran are playing, the various factions. Do they have the ability to make the right move when it counts? Or are the forces of the game too strong?

As far as I'm concerned Europe should stay out of this. But can we? Even if we'd be willing to? What's going to happen in Syria? That could tip the balance either way.

---

Orwyn_Blackheart posted:

---

cabbyman posted:

---

I can't wait until Iran is burning.

BURNING IN THE HELLFIRES THAT IT CREATED!!!!!!!

---

Your family members must have been Nazis right ? You seem to be really racist versus brown people. I see you always chanting for their death.


You filthy Nazi...

---