_Gronk_
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obamas-budget-calls-for-pay-raises-federal-workforce-size-would-remain-flat/2012/02/13/gIQAyEiDDR_story.html
Washington Post posted:
President Obama wants to give raises to people collecting federal paychecks, but in his new budget proposal, troops would get a larger pay boost than civilian employees.
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1) I'm glad the military is getting a pay raise, they actually EARN their pay. Although, it's really a wash, as the military is also heavily downsizing in the Army and Marines  . Less people = more money to give to the remaining soldiers. So now they will have to work harder with less people.
Stand strong troops!
----------------------------
But back to the Civilian side:
Washington Post posted:
The White House budget plan released Monday would increase federal civilian pay by a modest 0.5 percent, a bump that would end a two-year cost-of-living pay freeze.
“A permanent pay freeze is neither sustainable nor desirable,†Obama’s proposal said.
A federal employee earning $50,000 annually would have to pay an additional $600 each year into his or her retirement account, without any change in benefits, Dougan said. “In the wake of a two-year pay freeze, which effectively cut workers’ pay by thousands after inflation, another $600 bill to pay would be difficult to bear.â€
It's hard to have much sympathy for a government bureaucracy that cannot manage a proper budget, after all it is government workers that comes up with the budget - crunching budget numbers and what-not (when not using time at the taxpayers' expense, to post on Outpost... ) - WHEN the majority of society (the private sector) is already suffering through the recession with wage depreciation, wage freezes, and unemployment.
Whatever happened to less pay for guaranteed retirement benefits after 20 years?
Not being said is that more money for Federal Employees is more money for the Federal Employee unions, who give their money to one political party...
But go ahead and cough up more money for The Machine.
When in doubt, vote for the guy already in power.
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ZigmundZag
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/Wharbargl posted:
They shouldn't get a pay raise because I'm not getting a pay raise!
Jealousy is a terribly way to make fiscal policy. Or at least that's what we're told whenever the conversation centers around taxes.
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_Gronk_
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It's not that I'm against pay raises. It's just hard to have much sympathy for the public sector when the private sector is still hurting.
Especially when it is the private sector that pays for the public sector's mistakes anyway.
...
We got a pay raise anyway, it was in the contract from years before.
I'll get the drumset for the 5 year old, and a new laptop (or turntables) this year.
Decisions decision.
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theredkay1
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Public sector employees purchase all their goods at private sector businesses. They buy private sector homes. They buy private sector cars and eat at private sector restaurants.
Which private sector businessmen think the key to their success is poorer customers? Bankruptcy attorneys maybe?
Reducing a group of customers income is not the private sector stimulus you think it is. Its hard to figure out how you get from A to B on this one. Looks like you have a desire to punish a certain group of people and you are willing to damage the private sector economy to do so. Dumbz
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Yukishiro1
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Do you blame the workers of the company when a company goes under due to bad management?
Oh wait, you're muffin_king. So you probably do and that explains why your argument is so stupid.
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ZigmundZag
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If they were getting a 2%+ increase I could understand some degree of /outrage, but when you're talking about half a percentage point in 3 years (which still leaves them taking home less than it did 3 years ago), I'm not exactly moved by the case for freezing their wages.
By the way, how many civil servants can actually retire after 20 years? The only ones I ever knew to do anything like that were the ex-military who wouldn't start a GS job until they were in their 40's, and the bulk of their benefits were still coming from the military.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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theredkay1 posted:
Public sector employees purchase all their goods at private sector businesses. They buy private sector homes. They buy private sector cars and eat at private sector restaurants...
USING MONEY RE-DISTRIBUTED FROM THE PRIVATE SECTOR'S FUNDS, INEFFICIENTLY ADMINISTERED AND DECIMATED BY ALL KINDS OF TRANSFER COSTS AND REGULATORY COMPLIANCE TACKED ON.
Talk about 'dumb'...
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Sin_of_Onin
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The person who started the thread is an idiot but I am all for looking at how public employees are compensated and how their pay grows year to year. Also the nature of pension plans and retiree health plans are major issues. It would also be good to talk about how government budgets are made. Bureaucrats can certainly do better but for the most part the problems are inherent in the system and the nature of government more so than the fault of individuals.
One thing that could really help is providing more information to the general public about the nature of the government budget. It is such a massive thing that it is very hard to know what to do to fix the problem so people resort to faith based ideology on both sides.
A major goal of government should be to do a lot better job at informing decision makers which means informing the public. I expect third parties(lobbying groups) will end up doing it.
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_Gronk_
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There was a time when the public sector traded lower pay (compared to the private sector) for a lifelong pension (retirement benefits) after 20 years.
Whether or not it paid for all their living expenses is not the point, its the fact they get the pension after 20 years.
one can work at 20 and live till their 80 and get 40+ years of taxpayer funded pension, and even more so as they age...
The Public Sector now wants/has higher than private sector wages with pension/retirement benefits after 20 years, AND now they want a raise during a recession...
...All at the expense of the Private Sector which has been struggling through the recession while experiencing wage reduction, pay freezes, less jobs, and unemployment.
Again, the ripoff is not the pensions, its the demand for a public sector wage increase while the private sector is struggling.
If one wants to use the excuse that the public sector now earns more than the private sector because the public sector is smarter, then one basically is saying those who worked in the public sector in the past were just dumb taking lower pay.
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Tych2
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When I sell the tax business after this year it's my goal to get a government job. I am going to pull in a favor or two. 
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When you have an annual trillion dollar deficit and are working your way to 16 trillion in debt, this is all a great big farce.
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Yukishiro1
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Apparently a 0.5% raise every 3 years is too much to ask for as a public employee. You start at X salary and stay at that same salary until the day you retire! Orsomethe.
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There is currently ~ 1 government civilian worker (federal, state and local) for every six households.
We had a trend line of declining federal civilian headcounts til the late 1990's.
Resuming that trend would imply a 15% reduction over 5 years and ~$300 billion over the next ten years.
We could also focus on local private company outsourcing, where state and local governments are finding real productivity gains.
Pretty speculative but I like the less is more mantra.
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paulg_68
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If salary X is already too high then how fast should it increase?
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I'm against it only because on average public sector already makes way more than private sector employees
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Yukishiro1
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Eradiani posted:
I'm against it only because on average public sector already makes way more than private sector employees
This is stupid and not particularly true.
Some kinds of public employees make way more than equivalent jobs in the private sector. Generally unskilled or low skilled labor.
Other kinds of public employees make way less than the private sector equivalents. Professionals, for example.
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ZigmundZag
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_Gronk_ posted:
There was a time when the public sector traded lower pay (compared to the private sector) for a lifelong pension (retirement benefits) after 20 years.
You know, this is a pretty broad brush that conservatives always love to paint with, yet most civil service jobs (GS level work and post office comes to mind) have paid at a pretty good scale for as long as I can remember.
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Bobvillas posted:
There is currently ~ 1 government civilian worker (federal, state and local) for every six households.
We had a trend line of declining federal civilian headcounts til the late 1990's.
Resuming that trend would imply a 15% reduction over 5 years and ~$300 billion over the next ten years.
We could also focus on local private company outsourcing, where state and local governments are finding real productivity gains.
Pretty speculative but I like the less is more mantra.
That trend has been continuing ever since the start of the recession/housing slump. In fact public sector declines are the biggest reason we've had so many negative employment reports over the past two years...the private sector was making small gains while the public sector was letting quite a few people go.
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Yukishiro1
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A huge wave of retirements is starting in the public sector. Payroll will naturally go down anyway as higher paid retirees leave the system to be replaced with new hires. Freezing the pay of the new hires is not a very fair way to deal with the federal wage bill.
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What the government should really be focusing on is reworking pensions and health. The government is exposed to a lot of risk between the dependence on capital markets for revenue and the fact that their pension funds and retiree health funds are exposed to risk.
Not to mention all of the services the government provides that increase during a recession. Budgeting based on one year's revenue makes no sense, especially when the government entity's revenue is dependent on the income tax.
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_Gronk_
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Lower pay than the private sector (or a pay freeze) in exchange for a monthly pension check in the mail after 20 years for the rest of your life, is still a better trade off.
What government-guaranteed lifetime pension benefits after 20 years, does the private sector offer?
Posting on the Outpost while working on the taxpayer's dime towards pension benefits after 20 years isn't that bad of a gig, nor should give one reason to complain about a wage freeze if working in the public sector.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
What the government should really be focusing on is reworking pensions and health. The government is exposed to a lot of risk between the dependence on capital markets for revenue and the fact that their pension funds and retiree health funds are exposed to risk.
Not to mention all of the services the government provides that increase during a recession. Budgeting based on one year's revenue makes no sense, especially when the government entity's revenue is dependent on the income tax.
Most states are, I think. I know Washington state is trying to create unified health insurance plans for all employees to increase the pool size rather than letting each autonomous work group create their own pools. And states would have to be suicidal not to be looking at the long-term impacts of both health care and pension costs on their budgets when nearly all of them are strapped for cash. No idea what the feds are doing in regards to pension and health care reform for their employees, though.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Eradiani posted:
I'm against it only because on average public sector already makes way more than private sector employees
This is stupid and not particularly true.
Some kinds of public employees make way more than equivalent jobs in the private sector. Generally unskilled or low skilled labor.
Other kinds of public employees make way less than the private sector equivalents. Professionals, for example.
The only jobs the private sector tend to make more then the public sector are ones that are highly specialized and extreme long training to obtain. We are talking doctors, surgeons, lawyers, etc, etc.
The benefits of low education jobs are well above private sector and I can link you tons of articles that match this statement
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theredkay1
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
theredkay1 posted:
Public sector employees purchase all their goods at private sector businesses. They buy private sector homes. They buy private sector cars and eat at private sector restaurants...
USING MONEY RE-DISTRIBUTED FROM THE PRIVATE SECTOR'S FUNDS, INEFFICIENTLY ADMINISTERED AND DECIMATED BY ALL KINDS OF TRANSFER COSTS AND REGULATORY COMPLIANCE TACKED ON.
Talk about 'dumb'...
Those are factors to consider. It doesnt change anything I said though. Keep thinking things through. But try thinking about actual FACTS or DATA instead of always relying on CAPITALIZED DESCRIPTORS LIKE...RE-DISTRIBUTED....INEFFICIENTLY....DECIMATED....
How exactly is money decimated? That doesnt make sense. But you did capitalize it so I guess its right and we should fire some teachers to stop the DECIMATION.
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Eradiani posted:
The only jobs the private sector tend to make more then the public sector are ones that are highly specialized and extreme long training to obtain. We are talking doctors, surgeons, lawyers, etc, etc.
The benefits of low education jobs are well above private sector and I can link you tons of articles that match this statement
So in other words, professionals tend to make more in the private sector, while low skilled and unskilled laborers make more in the public sector...
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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theredkay1 posted:
duh?
No thanks. It's cute you think what you said actually merits any discussion beyond what I said, however.
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ZigmundZag posted:
Most states are, I think. I know Washington state is trying to create unified health insurance plans for all employees to increase the pool size rather than letting each autonomous work group create their own pools. And states would have to be suicidal not to be looking at the long-term impacts of both health care and pension costs on their budgets when nearly all of them are strapped for cash. No idea what the feds are doing in regards to pension and health care reform for their employees, though.
I don't know what the Feds are doing either but I know in CT they are making a lot of needed changes.
A lot of the problems are from people that are already retired and their benefits can't be touched. These pensions are the ones that ended up giving retirees a huge percentage of their final pay rate and cadillac insurance plans. Of course the state didn't actually save the money to pay for it so current tax payers are paying the bill.
This kind of budgeting is just irresponsible and neither party is innocent. The private sector made similar mistakes as well but they have been quicker to make reforms as well. What a politician says about this kind of thing is a good sniff test to see if they are full of crap or not.
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ZigmundZag posted:
Eradiani posted:
The only jobs the private sector tend to make more then the public sector are ones that are highly specialized and extreme long training to obtain. We are talking doctors, surgeons, lawyers, etc, etc.
The benefits of low education jobs are well above private sector and I can link you tons of articles that match this statement
So in other words, professionals tend to make more in the private sector, while low skilled and unskilled laborers make more in the public sector...
Disagreeing with someone and then saying the exact same thing is a tried and true Outpost strategy.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Eradiani posted:
The only jobs the private sector tend to make more then the public sector are ones that are highly specialized and extreme long training to obtain. We are talking doctors, surgeons, lawyers, etc, etc.
The benefits of low education jobs are well above private sector and I can link you tons of articles that match this statement
There are a lot of people in government that are doctors or lawyers or business professionals. The government also has a lot of high risk professions. Police, military, etc. They also have to use a lot of overtime.
Government workers also tend to have more experience because they are less likely to career hop due to the historical stability.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
theredkay1 posted:
Those are factors to consider. It doesnt change anything I said though. Keep thinking things through.
No thanks.
 keep up the good work
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theredkay1 posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
theredkay1 posted:
No thanks.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
Eradiani posted:
The only jobs the private sector tend to make more then the public sector are ones that are highly specialized and extreme long training to obtain. We are talking doctors, surgeons, lawyers, etc, etc.
The benefits of low education jobs are well above private sector and I can link you tons of articles that match this statement
So in other words, professionals tend to make more in the private sector, while low skilled and unskilled laborers make more in the public sector...
Disagreeing with someone and then saying the exact same thing is a tried and true Outpost strategy.
The point here being that I was right in my original post. The government employs many more low skill employees than high end employee's, which then in turn means that on average government employee's make more than private sector. If the highly skilled people were only getting the raises then I would see less of a problem with it.
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Eradiani posted:
The point here being that I was right in my original post. The government employs many more low skill employees then high end employee's. If the highly skilled people were only getting the raises then I would see less of a problem with it.
Government employees have more education and more work experience on average than the private sector by a lot.
The biggest difference for the low skilled workers tend to be that they are in a union and have worked a lot at their low skill job. The other major factor to consider would be hazard pay and overtime.
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Making people poorer for doing the same work is not a good economic strategy, retention plan, or long term labor goal.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Not factoring in standard of living, convenience, leisure time ability, and other factors into 'richer' or 'poorer' is also a pretty bad strategy.
90%+ of Americans are in the world's top 5%.
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Yukishiro1
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
90%+ of Americans are in the world's top 5%.
Cut everyone's pay by 25%! If they complain just remind them that compared to some bum in North Korea they're doing pretty well!
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Lyken-P
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"Expected" is a word you hear from 99% of the people today. "Earn" is no long in their vocabulary. (this goes for Private and Public Sectors)
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Sin_of_Onin
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Lyken-P posted:
"Expected" is a word you hear from 99% of the people today. "Earn" is no long in their vocabulary. (this goes for Private and Public Sectors)
Congress determines what they get. Obama had the change as part of his proposed budget.
You are an idiot.
HTH
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Yukishiro1
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For the last two years federal employees haven't been able to get raises whether or not they "earn" them. HTH.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Yukishiro1 posted:
For the last two years federal employees haven't been able to get raises whether or not they "earn" them. HTH.
In CT people have continued to get promoted but with no pay.
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Yukishiro1
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
For the last two years federal employees haven't been able to get raises whether or not they "earn" them. HTH.
In CT people have continued to get promoted but with no pay.
It depends on the agency for the feds. DOL is not quite so strict but for the DOJ for instance I think even if you switch jobs completely they won't pay you any more. So you have people going from being janitors to paralegals and not getting paid any more even though the entry salary rate for the second job is like 5k higher than the former job.
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Lyken-P
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Lyken-P posted:
"Expected" is a word you hear from 99% of the people today. "Earn" is no long in their vocabulary. (this goes for Private and Public Sectors)
Congress determines what they get. Obama had the change as part of his proposed budget.
You are an idiot.
HTH
Congress and Obama is great at understanding the difference between expected and earned. 
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Rikarus
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I am a fed employee, I have 27 years in service counting my miltiary time, I am no where near being able to retire, by the time I can retire I will be at least 56.5 and have 38.5 years of service, my retirement is a crap annuity, a 401k, and IF I am lucky, SS. I haven't seen shit for a raise in years, and assure you I work my ass off. yaay FERS.
Even back under CSRS, nobody retired with 20 unless they were retired military, and then double dipped at some other gov job.
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SoBaKi
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Lyken-P posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Lyken-P posted:
"Expected" is a word you hear from 99% of the people today. "Earn" is no long in their vocabulary. (this goes for Private and Public Sectors)
Congress determines what they get. Obama had the change as part of his proposed budget.
You are an idiot.
HTH
Congress and Obama is great at understanding the difference between expected and earned.
I'm sure you'll not be surprised to know you're exactly the sort of constituent the current crop of reptard presidential candidates are catering to.
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B_Shinkicker
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"Decimation" simply means a reduction of 10%.
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Lyken-P
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SoBaKi posted:
I'm sure you'll not be surprised to know you're exactly the sort of constituent the current crop of reptard presidential candidates are catering to.
You have no clue the type of constituent I am and you never will.
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theredkay1
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The conservative war on government wages (and really this is part of the conservative war on all wages) is actually an interesting topic. I dont see alot of analysis beyond taking a number out of a study/report and spinning a story around it to fit your preconceived conclusion.
Labor is a market....there is supply and there is demand and they will drive the price.
Conservatives in this debate like to pretend supply doesnt exist and the only thing driving the price is socialist Obama's desire to hire federal workers at any price.
But supply always matters. If you need work done and people dont really like doing that kind of work, you need to offer higher wages. Higher wages are a result of supply constraints. An easy example is an 'entry level' military job. You dont make much money but you make alot more than you would at other entry level jobs with similar education requirements.
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paulg_68
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theredkay1 posted:
Public sector employees purchase all their goods at private sector businesses. They buy private sector homes. They buy private sector cars and eat at private sector restaurants.
Which private sector businessmen think the key to their success is poorer customers? Bankruptcy attorneys maybe?
Reducing a group of customers income is not the private sector stimulus you think it is. Its hard to figure out how you get from A to B on this one. Looks like you have a desire to punish a certain group of people and you are willing to damage the private sector economy to do so. Dumbz
You are essentially making the shovels are better than tractors argument. If it's valid then spoons must be better than shovels right?
If we're better off having the government overpay on wages by 25% then wouldn't we be even better off if they overpaid by 100%? Or still better at 500%?
theredkay1 posted:
Labor is a market....there is supply and there is demand and they will drive the price.
The government pays above market wages for many jobs. They could pay less and still get the jobs done but they choose to pay more.
It skews the market for everyone else and hurts private businesses.
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Sin_of_Onin
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The labor market sucks, I don't think that making it worse for labor is a great idea.
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paulg_68
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
The labor market sucks, I don't think that making it worse for labor is a great idea.
Let's pay them all to have children and guarantee that the next generation faces an even greater oversupply problem.
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MatrexMistwalker
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For people saying Civil service doesnt deserve a pay raise what about people like me, after 10 years active duty I landed an ART position in the reserves, its full time reservist but by law I have to be civil service except during drill or a deployment.
I work my butt off as well keeping antique aircraft flying, the chemicals and solvents im exposed to on a daily basis will take about 10 years off my life... Ive earned a decent pay rate and retirement serving my country.
As it stands if me and the wife can keep the marriage together then Ill be able to retire around 50 ish and enjoy a couple years before dieing... but considering she will be deployed for 6 months a year and Im looking at 4 month a year deployments I dont know how we will keep it together seeing each other for a whole 2 months each year.
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Taliesihne
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People against pay raises for public employees aren't against it for you MM.
They are against it for the made up public employee in their heads, whom we shall call Government Richie. Like the mystical Welfare Queen is everyone on Welfare, Government Richie inhabits all public sector jobs. He works 10 hours a week, makes several hundred thousand dollars a year, doesn't pay his taxes and is probably a yankees fan to boot. On top of all that - and worst of all - he belongs to a union.
Government richie is everywhere! But he's not you MM.
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Lyken-P
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Any system that gives raises based on time served rather than quality of work is a broken system. Odd... who would have thought government would like and work using broken and wrong idea. 
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Taliesihne posted:
Government richie is everywhere!
You see, the problem is... they actually are.
The world is REPLETE with these overpaid, politically protected, generally untouchable, primarily incompetent, incented-to-be-mediocre morons.
I'm not rattling off the 20+ people I know in the sector and scores of examples, state and federal. But it's there. It's endemic. It's pathetic.
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Remnant_OBrien
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Since you're generally incompetent at evaluating anything, including your own worth as an individual, color me unconvinced.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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It's widespread. It's ingrained. It's pathetic.
And, it resides in most of the places it shouldn't.
Cops, teachers, firefighters and those who should be getting props... tend to get the shaft. To fund the useless administrators, armies of incompetent regulators, and political cronies clogging up the works.
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GrilledCheez
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
The world is REPLETE with these overpaid, politically protected, generally untouchable, primarily incompetent, incented-to-be-mediocre morons.
Despite the stupid in most of what AA says, this is one hundred percent true. And even direct contractors to the gov't are very similar. When you have a bureaucracy with basically unlimited funds, you will end up with people who are good at avoiding blame and little else. This is universal in my experience from plush departments at big companies with little oversight to most gov't agencies and their offshoots.
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Yukishiro1
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There are definitely lots of incompetent people who work for the government. When I started working at my job and applied for health benefits the people in the benefits department (a notorious place for incompetents) never even sent my application to the health insurer. Even though they were deducting fees from my paycheck.
I didn't find out for a month until I tried to use my insurance and found out I wasn't even in the insurer's system. I sent an email to the benefits department, which they promptly ignored. Finally I had to just fax in the application myself from the copy I had wisely kept for myself because they just totally ignored my email and when I phoned them they told me to do it myself because they had lost my application and didn't have any copies. wtf?
But I don't really see why that means I shouldn't get a raise.
P.S. Contractors are even worse. Almost every time the government decides to privatize a function and farm it out to contractors it ends up costing more and working less well.
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