Phlegm573
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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I know, I know, I used a redundancy in my post title...
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501363_162-57376671/nj-senate-oks-gay-marriage-bill-in-milestone-vote/
Christie will veto it, naturally, as he likes to pretend he has a shot at 2016... and the usual Wallace-esque socialcons will cheer him on, but just like the 1960s this vile lot will choose to ignore that they are on the losing side of history.
And the losing side of good vs. evil. 
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Yukishiro1
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10-15 years from now gay rights will be passe and people will wonder how people were ever so stupid. Just like civil rights are today.
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paulg_68
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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Liberal bigots are fighting that same losing battle FYI.
There's a reason the Democrats didn't give us national gay marriage when they held both houses and the whitehouse. It's because millions of people in the party don't want it.
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paulg_68
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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Yukishiro1 posted:
10-15 years from now gay rights will be passe and people will wonder how people were ever so stupid. Just like civil rights are today.
Some of us already wonder that.
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Yukishiro1
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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Well, sort of. It's more because Democrats are afraid of their reelection chances and having it used as a wedge issue against them.
One constant about Democrats is they are cowards who are constantly afraid of social issues being used to galvanize their opposition.
Very few people who describe themselves as "liberal" are opposed to gay marriage. But Democratic politicians need a lot more than just the self-professed liberal vote to win elections (in most districts).
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Ptilk
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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In a few years, every state will allow gay marriage, the federal government will recognize them, this whole stupid "fight" will be done with and future generations will wonder at how it could have ever even been an issue.
How "conservatives" can stand up screaming for "less government" and "less regulation"....then fight tooth and nail to keep more government regulations against everything they don't like is beyond me.
It's a wonder their god damn heads don't explode from the hypocrisy.
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paulg_68
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The two most neglected and lied to interest groups in all of politics are Republican fiscal conservatives and Democrat social liberals.
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paulg_68
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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Ptilk posted:
It's a wonder their god damn heads don't explode from the hypocrisy.
Democrats didn't pass it when they could and you only blame Republicans. Talk about hypocrisy.
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Aerlinthian
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There is an exit path out of all of this that everyone who didn't have an ulterior motive could get behind.
Simply, the government gets out of all of this by just going to a system of issuing Writ of Recognition of Domestic Partnership to any adults in any makeup who need such for legal & insurance purposes. Then whatever people want to call themselves is their business and no one can force anyone to call them what they want.
I don't accept that "marriage" is anything other than the union of one man & one women. But if you want to call whatever your situation is, call it marriage or whatever, then fine. As long as you can't force me in any way to do the same.
So two women, two men, multiple men with a woman, multiple women with a man, whatever. It is your business with your Writ of Recognition of Domestic Partnership. What you call it in your personal relationship isn't my business as long as you can't force me to call it something I object to.
Now we are out of each others business and can move on with our pathetic lives.
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Groucho48
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Democrats at the national level have definitely been cowards on this issue, as they have been on so many issues. On the state level, though, we actually have some Democrats with guts. And, slowly but surely, a state here, a state there, they are beating down right wing opposition.
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Ptilk
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The "We would rather destroy it completely than let those people share it" line is not a logical or reasonable answer.
It was also tried with integration, some people just advocated doing away with public schools altogether instead of having to share them with those people.
It's a spiteful and self destructive idea, and in no why offers what people are looking for....which is equal respect and equal treatment under the law. Your "answer" removes the respect and spits in the face of those who are demanding their equality.
Thankfully, as mentioned, such opinions will be looked upon with contempt and disgust by the vast majority of people in the near future.
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paulg_68
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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Groucho48 posted:
they are beating down right wing opposition.
That's their problem. They're focused on the right wing opposition when they really should have started with the left wing opposition. We'd have national gay marriage today if they had.
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Remnant_OBrien
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I'm confused... so the party that is mostly responsible for the gay equality legislation is the one we should be mad at?
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paulg_68
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Neither party has given us national gay marriage. Are we really supposed to applaud the Democrats because they are 60% cowards and 40% bigots while the Republicans are 60% bigots and 40% cowards?
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Remnant_OBrien
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Premise fail.
You applaud Democrats because Democrats actually have delivered gay equality bills. In Washington, New York, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts and Iowa, and California (legislation passed both houses of their legislature and was vetoed by Schwarzenegger) Hundreds of Democrats have voted for it, and hundreds of Republicans have voted against it. I'd say upward of 95% of Democrats are neither cowards or bigots. I'll let you justify your Republicans. Republicans are even looking to repeal the gay equality acts in New Hampshire.
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Groucho48
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Four years of Obama, with a very good prospect of four more years has really messed with your mind. Your stuff used to be mostly good trolls with some nice koan-like rejoinders that really made me think.
Now, it's just drivel. Kind of sad.
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Testerion
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Huges07.1
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Gee... I wonder if it has anything to do with african Americans being the most homophobic gay haters in the US? And it's not like they're even trying to hide it. 
Conservative bigots indeed!
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Moe_Nox
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Redundant is advocating States Rights? How very conservative of him. 
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Sin_of_Onin
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The whole gay marriage thing is just another example of the liberal left attacking the religious freedoms of Christians.
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Afio
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Testerion posted:
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I stole the above from Bonk's facebook, thanks.
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Sinlock
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The battle cry for 'State Rights' always seems to be raised when some new racist/homophobic/woman-hating/xenophobic law is on the table. There's a correlation, here.
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paulg_68
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The supposedly socially liberal party is also the party that wants to take away power from the states... which just happens to be where we've been getting gay marriage laws passed.
States rights is the only reason we've had any advancement in gay rights at all. If Democrats had their way there would be zero progress on this front.
This is a fact!
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Sinlock
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paulg_68 posted:
which just happens to be where we've been getting gay marriage laws passed.
And also where state constitutional amendments to press a conservative definition of 'marriage'.
The fact is, 'State Rights' are often a cloak for socially conservative bullshit. Most major civil rights have to be decided on a federal level and mandated upon the states. While many states are indeed passing gay marriage laws, I feel that the battle will eventually be taken to the federal level and will be completed there.
People often take 'State Rights' as meaning 'we have the right to oppress our minorities with bigoted and prejudicial laws'.
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eodoll
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I think we should let them get married but i have issues with allowing anyone to be a protected class.
Things that are not a choice: your ethnicity, color of eyes, your height, etc..
Things that are a choice: the way you dress, who you have a relationship with, if you drink, if you use drugs, if you cheat, etc..
Saying a group of people that make a choice should be as protected as people that dont (ex black skin) seems assinine.
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ZigmundZag
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Sinlock posted:
The fact is, 'State Rights' are often a cloak for socially conservative bullshit.
This is one of the main reasons I don't buy Ron Paul's schtick. He's obviously a social conservative hoping that individual states will carry out what the feds haven't been able to do.
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imaloon1
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The correlation being that the worst thing to ever happen to the united states of America was remaining the united states of America
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paulg_68
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Democrats believe it would be better if we reversed state laws granting homosexuals the right to marry. They want to do this to confirm their belief that states rights are only used to promote social conservativism. It's inconvenient and embarrassing to them when states rights are used to promote social liberalism.
I'm sorry you Democrats feel bad. Do you need a hug?
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Remnant_OBrien
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imaloon1 posted:
The correlation being that the worst thing to ever happen to the united states of America was remaining the united states of America
Yeah losing the rights to own slaves was rough. Being horribly oppressive for another 90 years just wasn't quite as awesome.
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Remnant_OBrien
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
The whole gay marriage thing is just another example of the liberal left attacking the religious freedoms of Christians.
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Ashmaele
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
The whole gay marriage thing is just another example of the liberal left attacking the religious freedoms of Christians.
Lol damn Sin, you're much smarter than this wtf?
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tenkly
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Ashmaele posted:
Remnant_OBrien posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
The whole gay marriage thing is just another example of the liberal left attacking the religious freedoms of Christians.
Lol damn Sin, you're much smarter than this wtf?
lol he's obviously trolling.
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paulg_68
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He's half trolling. He is mildly anti gay but was mocking the stupider arguments from his side of the fence.
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Voodoo-Dahl
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You never know. Religion can make otherwise reasonable people go batshit.
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Groucho48
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In New Jersey, the Democratic Legislature passed a gay marriage bill that the Republican Governor is threatening to veto. Somehow, someway, paulg will find a way to blame this on the Democrats.
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Eager_Igraine
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Yukishiro1 posted:
One constant about Democrats is they are cowards who are constantly afraid of social issues being used to galvanize their opposition.
That is so true it hurts.
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_Enkidu_
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Well, if the dem legislature didn't pass it, the rep governor wouldn't have to veto it, right?
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paulg_68
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I applaud the Democrats passing gay marriage at the state level.
Thank goodness that the Democrats haven't been allowed to completely squash states rights which happens to be the best hope we have for social liberalism in this country.
It must be embarrassing to be a Democrat who has argued for years against states rights on the notion that it is only used to squash civil liberties only to have it be the primary source of civil liberties for one of your own special interest groups.
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DemonicXH
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I still don't understand why when the Democrats controlled the senate, house and the presidency this wasn't put to bed.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for gay marriage, the idea that any government needs to be involved in who you marry is just preposterous.
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Ashmaele
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DemonicXH posted:
I still don't understand how the Cloture Rule works
Don't worry, half the people on this bored don't.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Subject:
Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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Ashmaele posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
The whole gay marriage thing is just another example of the liberal left attacking the religious freedoms of Christians.
Lol damn Sin, you're much smarter than this wtf?
Yes I am.
Dumbass.
I don't think I could have been more sarcastic if I tried.
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DemonicXH
Title: Camelot Vault Staff
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Subject:
Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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Ashmaele posted:
DemonicXH posted:
I still don't understand how the Cloture Rule works
Don't worry, half the people on this bored don't.
In other words you don't know so rather then keeping your mouth shut to an honest question. You assume something.
Thanks for playing.
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paulg_68
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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Groucho48 posted:
In New Jersey, the Democratic Legislature passed a gay marriage bill that the Republican Governor is threatening to veto. Somehow, someway, paulg will find a way to blame this on the Democrats.
Christie was the first New Jersey Governor to nominate an openly gay man to the state supreme court. Approval has been pending in the Democratically controlled state senate for a month.
Why do the Democrats hate gays so much?
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Bobvillas
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Is marriage the issue?
Who cares.
Let them do whatever they want and lets move on to more important issues.
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SoBaKi
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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Huges07.1 posted:
LOOK! MORE BLACKS!
Yes, your wife likes it MORE black.
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SoBaKi
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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paulg_68 posted:
Groucho48 posted:
In New Jersey, the Democratic Legislature passed a gay marriage bill that the Republican Governor is threatening to veto. Somehow, someway, paulg will find a way to blame this on the Democrats.
Christie was the first New Jersey Governor to nominate an openly gay man to the state supreme court. Approval has been pending in the Democratically controlled state senate for a month.
Why do the Democrats hate gays so much?
Your stupidity knows no bounds.
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paulg_68
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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Well he's also black so it's possible that's why they haven't approved him.
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Groucho48
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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The difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals will come around to the right thing at a time when it makes a difference, while conservatives will fight it tooth and nail then, 30 years down the road, claim credit for passing it.
During the 90s the great majority of both Republican and Democratic Congressfolk were against gay marriage. That started changing, for Democrats, in the last decade. Republicans, of course, doubled down on their opposition.
Over the next decade, Democratic Congress folk will support gay marriage in larger and larger numbers. Republicans will not. In forty years, though, Republicans will claim that it was their libertarian philosophy that made legalizing gay marriage possible.
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paulg_68
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Democrats had the House, Senate, and Whitehouse. If there was ever a right time that was it.
They didn't pass it.
Thank goodness Democrats haven't been able to completely stamp out states rights or we wouldn't be making any progress at all.
Are you embarrassed Groucho that you have argued that states rights were a power only to be used for ebil?
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paulg_68
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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As for what the Republicans will argue in 30 years, it will probably depend on how the votes come out.
A party would look pretty stupid if they tried to take credit for advancing civil rights when it was actually the opposition party that voted for it in greater percentages.
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If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc "Everyone has a chance to become rich." - Groucho48 "Most of the human wealth on earth exists between the ears of live human beings." - theredkay1
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RHWarrior
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Rightwinder Recurring Nightmare:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODqdlBeC0ns
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Groucho48
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paulg_68 posted:
Democrats had the House, Senate, and Whitehouse. If there was ever a right time that was it.
They didn't pass it.
Thank goodness Democrats haven't been able to completely stamp out states rights or we wouldn't be making any progress at all.
Are you embarrassed Groucho that you have argued that states rights were a power only to be used for ebil?
I have stated many times that the only importance the issue of states rights has to me is it is yet another tool to mock right wing hypocrites with. It is right wingers who make states rights one of the foundations of their political philosophy, so, naturally enough, I enjoy pointing out all the times they impose federal statues to violate the concept of states rights. Like, say, the Defense of Marriage Act.
All things being equal, the concept of 50 state all trying different things and the country as a whole progressing from their different experiences, is an attractive one. But, it doesn't work that way in the real world. States rights are generally used by right wingers to deny individual rights. In those cases, I think the Feds need to step in and protect individual rights. With gay marriage, you are correct in that the concept of states rights is actually being used, by Democrats, to advance individual rights.
I would order things this way:
Individual rights
Federal rights
States rights
Right wingers generally order them in the way that favors the few over the many. Sometimes that is states rights first, sometimes it is federal rights first. Whichever serves best to curtail individual rights.
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GrilledCheez
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I like this issue. because conservatives are so wrong about it I can even agree with normally stupid liberals about it. 
Ahhh
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Sea_of_inK
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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paulg_68 posted:
Please don't ever wonder why you get called a RWN, ideologue, or partisan.
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_Enkidu_
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The really funny part of all of this is how little making same sex marriages legal is going to matter.
Except for the whole spreading the pain thing, but if I can take it, I imagine the gays can, too.
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Moe_Nox
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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_Enkidu_ posted:
The funny part of all this is making same sex marriages legal. Except for the whole spreading the pain thing, but I can take it.
You have just earned Sobaki as your stalker.
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SoBaKi
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Conservative bigots fighting a losing battle against gays
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Moe_Nox posted:
_Enkidu_ posted:
The funny part of all this is making same sex marriages legal. Except for the whole spreading the pain thing, but I can take it.
You have just earned Sobaki as your stalker.
I obviously have my own stalker.
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_Enkidu_
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Weird how moe-nox editted my post like, wtf?
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Moe_Nox
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I added zero words!
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