paulg_68
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Insurance is for unexpected bad things, not for routine expenses. Why add an extra middle man and a ton of paperwork? That just drives up the cost.
On top of that some insurance companies won't pay for certain brands of birth control. That lowers competition and drives up the price even further.
Stupid.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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You're for voluntary eugenics but not for contraceptives??
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paulg_68
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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I'm for contraceptives. So much so that I'm arguing for making them cheaper.
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If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc "Everyone has a chance to become rich." - Groucho48 "Most of the human wealth on earth exists between the ears of live human beings." - theredkay1
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Groucho48
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Cheaper than free?
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__Bonk__
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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It should be. Its very good for society to have people use birth control rather than have unwanted children OR get abortions.
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Remnant_OBrien
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Human beings getting sick and needing medical treatment is unexpected now?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Groucho48 posted:
Cheaper than free?
Ahhhhhh, the fiscal liberal mind set. It slays me.
SOMEONE is paying for it, Groucho.
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Kjarhall
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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It isn't only used for birth control.
And asthma medication, among others, is also a routine expense.
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Afio
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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What about mammograms,pap smears, psa screenings?
When you have a physical, do you use your insurance for it, paul?
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Ptilk
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Pregnancy is a medical condition. It can even kill you and it can certainly dramatically impact the quality of your life.
In that, it is just like any other preventable medical condition that people routinely take medication to prevent. To single it out as somehow different than them isn't something you can do based upon reality or logic....only mysticism or sexism.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Ptilk posted:
Pregnancy is a medical condition. It can even kill you and it can certainly dramatically impact the quality of your life.
In that, it is just like any other preventable medical condition...
...which can easily and reliably be prevented by not having intercourse.
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Ptilk
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Yeah, and you can prevent heart disease by exercising and not eating tons of crappy food, but insurance pays for Lipitor despite that.
You can avoid getting injured in a car crash by not getting into a damn car...but your insurance pays when you get into a wreck.
The list is endless, almost every injury or illness could be avoided by not doing something that normal, healthy people do every god damn day......but insurance pays for them.
Singling out pregnancy because it has to do with sex is illogical and not in accordance with every other avoidable condition.....it's based upon mysticism or sexism. Usually both.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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I'm neither mystic nor misogynist.
Crashes are not the 'expected designed result' of getting into a car.
Heart attacks are not the 'expected designed result' of eating.
Getting pregnant IS the expected designed result of intercourse.
There are plenty of ways to get your rocks off that don't involve intercourse. So, if you want to OPTIONALLY perform it and avoid its intended consequences, have at. But why should others pay for your leisure?
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Scarne
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Getting pregnant IS the expected designed result of intercourse.
The majority of non-protected intercourses do not result in pregnancy.
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__Bonk__
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SKONK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Scarne posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Getting pregnant IS the expected designed result of intercourse.
The majority of non-protected intercourses do not result in pregnancy.
I didn't say it was the most efficient method. But it IS the expected designed result of intercourse.
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__Bonk__
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Only intercourse is considered sex by this guy!
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Allstarslacker
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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There was no design.
Also, insurance companies pay for birth control because it's cheaper to pay for that than pay for a baby.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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So whatever is cheaper is the way to go on health care?
I see. Do, go on.
<Waits patiently to hear details about the upcoming death panels...>
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Allstarslacker
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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If a woman gets pregnant the insurance is going to pay out thousands.
If she wants birth control why wouldn't they pay for it? It's better for them, and it's better for her.
Cheaper isn't always the way to go, but when it's in both parties best interests and it's cheaper it would be stupid not to.
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Ptilk
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Your "logic" is um....illogical. And laughable. And pathetic.
You just claimed that pregnancy is the intended result of sex. Think about that for a bit. 
I could point out all the other benefits of sex that have nothing to do with pregnancy, but I'm pretty sure someone with your "mindset" would dismiss them all and stick to claiming it's all about getting knocked up. What a pathetic way to look at the world.
The only ways someone could hold that opinion are based either on sexism or mysticism. From the sound of it I'm going to go with sexism for you.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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The vagina is one of the more complex mechanisms in the world, designed for delivery, fertilization and nurturing of eggs in pregnancy.
The peen is also pretty complex, designed for erection, insertion, and depositing of seed to create... pregnancy.
A HUGE percentage of your body's capacity is given over to procreation, pregnancy and nurturing. Particularly in women.
The facts are pretty straight forward.
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Allstarslacker
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How do you know there was a design?
I thought you weren't religious...
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Bonzoboy1
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It was an interesting move to have everyone else pay for the birth control for the religious entities.
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smellymotor
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One of the more medically minded people could probably explain this better but some times the pill is prescribed for medical conditions like anaemia I think it is and others
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Ptilk
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saying intercourse is designed to create pregnancy is like saying your hand is designed to wank your dick.
Sex can result in pregnancy and your hand can pound on your pud....but both have a lot of other uses as well.
You have a very skewed opinion on this subject. Sexism or mysticism. Like I said.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Allstarslacker posted:
How do you know there was a design?
I thought you weren't religious...
I don't claim to know how the design came to be. But there's a pretty clearly a design present.
Example: Oral sex clearly ain't gonna get you pregnant. There are 0.0% of the design elements present for that to happen.
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Scarne
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Example: Oral sex clearly ain't gonna get you pregnant. There are 0.0% of the design elements present for that to happen.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/2010/02/01/ncbi-rofl-thats-one-miraculous-conception/
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Koneg
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Groucho48 posted:
Cheaper than free?
You think if an insurance company pays for it, it's "free"?
Interesting. Dumb. But interesting.
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Allstarslacker
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Allstarslacker posted:
How do you know there was a design?
I thought you weren't religious...
I don't claim to know how the design came to be. But there's a pretty clearly a design present.
Example: Oral sex clearly ain't gonna get you pregnant. There are 0.0% of the design elements present for that to happen.
Form does not imply design.
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Heladric
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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paulg_68 posted:
Insurance is for unexpected bad things, not for routine expenses. Why add an extra middle man and a ton of paperwork? That just drives up the cost.
On top of that some insurance companies won't pay for certain brands of birth control. That lowers competition and drives up the price even further.
Stupid.
Check ups are routine. I would like my health insurance to cover them. Poor argument. Lock the thread and try again.
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Ptilk
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Insurance pays for viagra.
Insurance pays for gastric bypass surgery.
What both of these things have in common is....they aren't required, you could just have a limp dick and be fat.
Insurance pays for zit cream, and prosthetic limbs...they aren't required, you could just be a zit faced gimp.
Insurance pays for anti-depressants and rhinophyma cures....they aren't required, you could just be a sad clown.
In fact, insurance pays for a lot of things that aren't required to remain alive but help the patient live a happier life. Your "opinion" isn't supported by reality, it's based upon moral judgment or hatred of women and a desire to punish them for enjoying life.
Just sayin.... 
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theredkay1
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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birth control has large health benefits for women. its cheaper than pregnancy.
better health + lower costs = why its covered by insurance
the argument against it seems to be....'Im a man, who cares about these woman issues!' 
AA's argument disqualifies most things from insurance since its the natural result. Humans naturally get old and have organ problems...so we shouldnt cover those issues. Cancer is a natural result, no coverage. And on and on and on.... Although its comical to see his attempt to randomly declare some things the natural result and others are not. Your body is designed to fail in million different ways....and therefore nothing should be covered by insurance. dumbz
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Taliesihne
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Paul, for a libertarian you sure don't have much business sense.
Investments in contraception prevent pregnancies. Pregnancies are costly. As is infant care.
The businesses that actually purchase insurance for their employees have a vested interest in keeping pregnancies down. Besides the obvious cost of having +1 or more people to cover, the pregnancy itself means lost productivity.
This is simply smart business.
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armoredgimp
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Pregnancy is never an accident.
No glove no love.
i don't have a problem with making contraceptives free.. Rubbers for all.
But if your going to include the pill, the morning after pill et al to prevent a 100% avoidable condition you should include some unavoidable condition medications.
Thyroid meds.
Needles and insulin for diabetics
eye glasses
more...
hell lets make all medical free paid for by the millionaires and billionaires, that's the ticket.
Politicians are attacking the wrong end of the problem.
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__Bonk__
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Another woman I'm talking to said that her last boyfriend trusted her and went without a condom. I just cant be that trusting
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Modeeb
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Ptilk , you need to comb your posts and compile the wit and wisdom of a game board troll. I am thinking best seller.
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Tych2
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Ptilk is spot on in this thread.
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paulg_68
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Groucho48 posted:
Cheaper than free?
It's more expensive than if people just bought it.
How do you imagine that counts as free?
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paulg_68
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Afio posted:
What about mammograms,pap smears, psa screenings?
When you have a physical, do you use your insurance for it, paul?
I do. It's all more expensive because it's included under insurance. You personally would save money if it wasn't. We collectively would save a shitload of money if it wasn't.
Heladric posted:
Check ups are routine. I would like my health insurance to cover them. Poor argument. Lock the thread and try again.
Why? Because you would rather pay more than less?
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Tych2
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Some things are worth the cost. This is one of them.
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paulg_68
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We can have the same stuff at a lower cost. Is it worth more because we pay more?
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paulg_68 posted:
We can have the same stuff at a lower cost. Is it worth more because we pay more?
when did you become a socialist? 
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paulg_68 posted:
We can have the same stuff at a lower cost. Is it worth more because we pay more?
Explain.
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Tych2 posted:
paulg_68 posted:
We can have the same stuff at a lower cost. Is it worth more because we pay more?
Explain.
i think his argument, assuming he's not trolling, is that if it is covered by insurance then manufacturers will drive the costs up - and as soon as it's not covered by insurance there will somehow be more competition and drive the prices down.
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Suppose you go to the store to buy a loaf of bread and it costs you $3.00.
Now imagine if instead of just paying for it you give money in advance to a middle man. The store will give you the bread for "free" and will then file paperwork with your middle man to get reimbursed in a couple of months. You've now introduced time value of money into the equation. Additionally you've introduced paperwork. On top of that you've introduced a third party who needs to make a profit. All of these things add to the ultimate price you pay. You probably end up prepaying $4.50 per loaf of "free" bread that you receive.
$3.00 < $4.50
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I still think somethings are worth the cost and should be shared by all. This is one of those things.
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Its very cost effective for society to fund sex education, birth control, and possibly even abortions.
If you dont morally believe it then dont do it yourself.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
I'm neither mystic nor misogynist.
Crashes are not the 'expected designed result' of getting into a car.
Heart attacks are not the 'expected designed result' of eating.
Getting pregnant IS the expected designed result of intercourse.
 
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nature designed sex to be fun so that people will get tricked into having kids to continue the species
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paulg_68 posted:
We can have the same stuff at a lower cost. Is it worth more because we pay more?
You know, we could save a TON of money by eliminating our police and army if people would just get along and not kill eachother.
I just identified 5000x as much savings as you did, and all people have to do is refrain from committing crimes!
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Tych2 posted:
I still think somethings are worth the cost and should be shared by all. This is one of those things.
Charity and private business should not be mixed. There is zero reason to believe that for-profit private businesses can manage charitable giving without turning it into a money maker.
You're advocating for charity for a portion of recipients. I'm okay with providing birth control charitably. It's stupid to try to do it through for-profit insurance companies. It just drives up costs.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
paulg_68 posted:
We can have the same stuff at a lower cost. Is it worth more because we pay more?
You know, we could save a TON of money by eliminating our police and army if people would just get along and not kill eachother.
I just identified 5000x as much savings as you did, and all people have to do is refrain from committing crimes!
So we shouldn't solve small problems so long as bigger problems exist?
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paulg_68 posted:
It just drives up costs.
Well in this instance I am cool with it.
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paulg_68 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
paulg_68 posted:
We can have the same stuff at a lower cost. Is it worth more because we pay more?
You know, we could save a TON of money by eliminating our police and army if people would just get along and not kill eachother.
I just identified 5000x as much savings as you did, and all people have to do is refrain from committing crimes!
So we shouldn't solve small problems so long as bigger problems exist?
whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh
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Tych2 posted:
paulg_68 posted:
It just drives up costs.
Well in this instance I am cool with it.
Because it provides what benefit that couldn't be had cheaper?
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You don't know what the benefit of contraceptives are?
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I see both sides off the argument on this. Sexuality and reproduction are genuine health issues and should not be shoveled under the carpet as taboo where medicine is concerned.
On the other side of the coin. Has government intervened to mandate coverage like this in the past? If so, let's hear the precedence and go from there. If not, stay the hell out of things that do not concern federal reach.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh
I could have posted the same thing in response to your post.
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Tych2 posted:
You don't know what the benefit of contraceptives are?
I'm pretty sure the benefits are the same even if you pay less for them.
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Ok
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paulg_68 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh
I could have posted the same thing in response to your post.
You honestly don't get it?
Your suggestion is stupid because it relies on people not being people.
If you don't cover contraceptives the people who really shouldn't be getting pregnant are also the sort of people who will not pay for it out of pocket on their own or take the effort to get it charitably.
You will end up with more pregnancy and higher costs because of it.
For someone who is always on about eugenics you are sure not very good at it.
If we could assume people are rational when it comes to sex and crime we could change a whole lot of things and save a whole ton of money. But people arn't and designing policies that rely on them being so is never going to end well.
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Allstarslacker posted:
There was no design.
Also, insurance companies pay for birth control because it's cheaper to pay for that than pay for a baby.
This, it is simple math.
The same reason insurance companies are now kicking in for fitness center memberships if you go a confirmed amount of times. It is cheaper than the alternative.
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paulg_68 posted:
We can have the same stuff at a lower cost. Is it worth more because we pay more?
Unsubstantiated assumption.
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Kjarhall posted:
paulg_68 posted:
We can have the same stuff at a lower cost. Is it worth more because we pay more?
Unsubstantiated assumption.
You don't believe that insurance companies have overhead and profit or that doing paperwork consumes manpower?
Yukishiro1 posted:
If you don't cover contraceptives the people who really shouldn't be getting pregnant are also the sort of people who will not pay for it out of pocket on their own or take the effort to get it charitably.
What "sort of people" are those?
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Because you need to see a dr to get on birth control.
Condoms are not covered by insurance as far as im aware.
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paulg_68 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
If you don't cover contraceptives the people who really shouldn't be getting pregnant are also the sort of people who will not pay for it out of pocket on their own or take the effort to get it charitably.
What "sort of people" are those?
People who arn't good at planning?
Your argument is at odds with human nature. Insurance companies cover contraceptives because they know it makes sense for them financially. If everyone was smart and planned well and organized yes we might save money by not covering them but people arn't smart and they don't plan well and they arn't organized.
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Allstarslacker posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Allstarslacker posted:
How do you know there was a design? I thought you weren't religious...
I don't claim to know how the design came to be. But there's a pretty clearly a design present.
Example: Oral sex clearly ain't gonna get you pregnant. There are 0.0% of the design elements present for that to happen.
Form does not imply design.
And a design or the process that results in design does not require sentient action.
This started as a 'reach' to bail out Paulie when he went off to take a crap osementhe. But really this thin ice is a little more solid than I imagined when I first stepped foot on it.
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I'm pretty sure design requires intent.
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Allstarslacker posted:
I'm pretty sure design requires intent.
Pretty sure not. Example:
http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Revolution-Design-Without-Intelligence/dp/0522853382
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Stupid people who are poor planners aren't paying for their own insurance anyways. We're giving it to them charitably. Giving charity through a for-profit middle man is a waste of money.
I've already said I was in favor of giving it away to them for free. Let's just cut out the middle men and mail birth control to poor women every month.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Allstarslacker posted:
I'm pretty sure design requires intent.
Pretty sure not. Example:
http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Revolution-Design-Without-Intelligence/dp/0522853382
Design implies purpose.
How can you have purpose without intent?
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Nature or evolution create constructs that clearly have a predictable cause and effect, and refines those constructs to increase the efficacy in reaching that effect, over time.
That may be the result of god, or intelligent design, or just evolutionary pressure. One of those three doesn't require intent or intelligence. But to deny the design itself is present is just being hard-headed IMO.
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I won't deny that there is a form present, but I don't think there is a design to it unless there is also an intent behind it.
Existence is either a random form, or a purposeful design. From our perspective it is impossible to tell which case it is.
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I (honestly) don't accept the premise that a design must be purposeful in the sense that a sentient being designed it with purpose. Other factors non-sentient or just semi-sentient can create and then refine a design... a la evolutionary pressures.
Therefore, we're at an impasse.
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PS: That thinking is a little Buddhist, which is in fact honest because as I've admitted, I kindof 'swing that way' in my ethics.
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theredkay1 posted:
birth control has large health benefits for women. its cheaper than pregnancy.
Exactly.Bottom line: Insurance companies are businesses and in it for the profit. Helping people is just a mandatory chore for them on their way to riches.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Getting pregnant IS the expected designed result of intercourse.
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ineenia posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Getting pregnant IS the expected designed result of intercourse.
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At CPAC, some conservative groups were suggesting rebranding birth control as abortion.
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So riddle me this, outpost men's rights' activists. Should insurance companies cover Viagra but not birth control?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Phlegm573 posted:
So riddle me this, outpost men's rights' activists. Should insurance companies cover Viagra but not birth control?
I'm leaning toward, all sex-related items should be part of optional riders, not guaranteed or protected basic health care.
I mean thinking it through. Most insurance doesn't cover fertility treatments iirc. So why should it cover viagra?
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Yukishiro1
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Should it also not cover vaccines for STDs or treatment for them? What about maternity care? That's unnessecary too if you just don't have sex!111
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Should it also not cover vaccines for STDs or treatment for them? What about maternity care? That's unnessecary too if you just don't have sex!111
Dunno. Considering it. Again I'm considering the 'basic' versus 'optional rider' aspect, not if it should be available at all.
Whatever the market will bear can and should be provided, at a minimum.
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Groucho48
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Koneg posted:
Groucho48 posted:
Cheaper than free?
You think if an insurance company pays for it, it's "free"?
Interesting. Dumb. But interesting.
It is cheaper for the insurance company to absorb some or most of the cost of birth control than it is for women to have a child and have that child covered by insurance for 26 years. Any decent bargaining unit should be able to get birth control coverage for a pittance.
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I didn't read the thread but it is "free" because if you are committed to paying for the cost of delivering a baby then it is cheaper to pay for birth control.
This is the nature of preventative medicine and why new services can be offered for cheap or free if the alternative is significantly more expensive.
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To add to my last post.
“[E]very dollar invested by the government for contraception saves $3.74 in Medicaid expenditures for pregnancy-related care related to births from unintended pregnancies. In total, the services provided at publicly funded family planning clinics resulted in a net savings of $5.1 billion in 2008. Significantly, these savings do not account for any of the broader health, social or economic benefits to women and families from contraceptive services and supplies, and the ability to time, space and prepare for pregnancies.â€
.
.
.
“Some studies have looked at cost-savings for private insurers specifically. Notably, the federal government, the nation’s largest employer, reported that it experienced no increase in costs at all after Congress required coverage of contraceptives for federal employees in 1998. A 2000 study by the National Business Group on Health, a membership group for large private- and public-sector employers to address their health policy concerns, estimated that it costs employers 15–17% more to not provide contraceptive coverage in employee health plans than to provide such coverage, after accounting for both the direct medical costs of pregnancy and indirect costs such as employee absence and reduced productivity. Mercer, the employee benefits consulting firm, conducted a similar analysis that year and also concluded that contraceptive coverage should be cost-saving for employers.â€
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/CPSW-testimony.pdf
No fiscal conservative should be against birth control provisions in health insurance. They should be applauding Obama for including it.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
I didn't read the thread but it is "free" because if you are committed to paying for the cost of delivering a baby...
First, they're generally not going to go to term. They're going to abort. That's hella cheaper than maternity and 20+ years.
Second, who cares. It's still not "free". It's just "less expensive."
Third, again, who cares some more... because what you are REALLY saying is:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
I didn't read the thread but it is "free" because if you are already committed to paying for the cost of undoing the predictable result of a totally avoidable leisure activity...
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Another prude who hates sex and doesn't think folks should be doing it.
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Groucho48 posted:
Another prude who hates sex and doesn't think folks should be doing it.
Annnnnnnnd another swing-and-a-miss, folks!
Ab who will be back in 30 or so minutes posted:
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Groucho has a point.
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Groucho is right. The conservative line is if you teach kids about sex education and teach them about birth control they will have more sex. If a Christian kid has more sex its most likely because of bad parenting than anything the government did
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Groucho48 posted:
No fiscal conservative should be against birth control provisions in health insurance. They should be applauding Obama for including it.
If it's better to make it more expensive shouldn't we be looking for other ways to jack up the cost even higher?
Maybe we could make people pay with rare silver coins instead of regular cash. Or we could package the stuff in real gold foil.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Groucho48 posted:
Another prude who hates sex and doesn't think folks should be doing it.
Annnnnnnnd another swing-and-a-miss, folks!
Ab who will be back in 30 or so minutes posted:
Says the fellow who describes sex as a "totally avoidable leisure activity", therefore, folks should suffer the "predictable result" of it. Sounds pretty puritanical to me.
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paulg_68 posted:
Groucho48 posted:
No fiscal conservative should be against birth control provisions in health insurance. They should be applauding Obama for including it.
If it's better to make it more expensive shouldn't we be looking for other ways to jack up the cost even higher?
Maybe we could make people pay with rare silver coins instead of regular cash. Or we could package the stuff in real gold foil.
Explain how covering it makes it more expensive. You posted some gibberish about it earlier, but, it didn't make much sense. As I linked, studies show it lowers insurance costs. Of course, you have solid evidence that it doesn't? Or, just your ideology saying so?
My thinking is that, if it saves insurance companies 15-17%, the riders they would offer could easily cut the overall insurance premium by 5% and everyone saves money.
Kind of like getting a discount on your car insurance by taking a safe driving course.
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Groucho48 posted:
Says the fellow who describes sex as a "totally avoidable leisure activity", therefore, folks should suffer the "predictable result" of it. Sounds pretty puritanical to me.
It's not. The last lady I had ongoing relations with didn't have her birth control covered... she paid for it. And then, later, I paid for it.
At first she had no insurance. Then, we didn't claim it under insurance... it wasn't worth the hassle. It cost about $11 a month.
And guess what... I paid for the condoms before that, too.
"Pay to play".
Think about it. If you can't cover the cost of CONTRACEPTION, you SURE the f*ck can't cover the cost of a kid. You have no business saddling me with it.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
First, they're generally not going to go to term. They're going to abort. That's hella cheaper than maternity and 20+ years.
Second, who cares. It's still not "free". It's just "less expensive."
Third, again, who cares some more... because what you are REALLY saying is:
It is cheaper than an abortion too. From the standpoint of the insurance company it not only costs zero but less than zero.
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But health insurance shouldn't cover abortions or maternity or children either because children are also totally avoidable luxuries!!111
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
It is cheaper than an abortion too. From the standpoint of the insurance company it not only costs zero but less than zero.
Only if we keep proceeding from the flawed assumption that they should cover intervention to un-do the totally predictable, probable result of an optional leisure activity.
Which is a pretty stupid assumption.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
It is cheaper than an abortion too. From the standpoint of the insurance company it not only costs zero but less than zero.
Only if we keep proceeding from the flawed assumption that they should cover intervention to un-do the totally predictable, probable result of an optional leisure activity.
Which is a pretty stupid assumption.
What does "should" have to do with it? If it costs them less to cut the thing in half they will offer you that option.
Don't you know anything about economics?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Health insurance shouldn't cover abortions or maternity or children either.
Did I call that or what?
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Yukishiro1 posted:
But health insurance shouldn't cover abortions or maternity or children either because children are also totally avoidable luxuries!!111
Children are a predictable result of a natural act. They're not an 'undoing' of something you CHOSE to do...
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
It is cheaper than an abortion too. From the standpoint of the insurance company it not only costs zero but less than zero.
Only if we keep proceeding from the flawed assumption that they should cover intervention to un-do the totally predictable, probable result of an optional leisure activity.
Which is a pretty stupid assumption.
So, insurance shouldn't cover broken legs from skiing?
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Health insurance shouldn't cover abortions or maternity or children either.
Did I call that or what?
Uhm... only in your mind and via fake quoting, "dude".
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Groucho48 posted:
Explain how covering it makes it more expensive. You posted some gibberish about it earlier, but, it didn't make much sense. As I linked, studies show it lowers insurance costs.
Were you aware that insurance and birth control pills are not the same thing?
Groucho48 posted:
My thinking is that, if it saves insurance companies 15-17%, the riders they would offer could easily cut the overall insurance premium by 5% and everyone saves money.
Women taking birth control lowers the cost of providing insurance. This is true whether they pay more for birth control pills or less for birth control pills. In fact the benefits are exactly the same regardless of which price they pay. As such, it's actually cheaper overall if they pay less for the birth control pills when you factor in both the cost of insurance and the cost of birth control pills.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
But health insurance shouldn't cover abortions or maternity or children either because children are also totally avoidable luxuries!!111
Children are a predictable result of a natural act. They're not an 'undoing' of something you CHOSE to do...
Wtf? So if you mistakenly get pregnant we won't pay for an abortion because that would be undoing something you chose to do but we will pay for the kid's health care for 20 years? And we won't pay for contraception in the first place because there's no need for that either?
Did you learn this approach in MBA school or something?
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Groucho48 posted:
So, insurance shouldn't cover broken legs from skiing?
Keep trying. Go back to my original definition.
Breaking your leg is not the predictable, intended, designed outcome from skiing. That's an unintended consequence one should be "insured" by... "insurance"... against. No?
How do you "insure" against something that's going to happen predictably when you're doing something designed to cause that very outcome?
You guys are like 2 steps behind me. Keep trying, though. At least the post count is picking up.
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I think the real lesson of this thread is that AA and paul are too stupid to go into the insurance industry.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Breaking your leg is not the predictable, intended, designed outcome from skiing. That's an unintended consequence one should be "insured" by... "insurance"... against. No?
How do you "insure" against something that's going to happen predictably when you're doing something designed to cause that very outcome
So we will cover broken legs because they arn't predictable.
But we will cover children because they are predictable.
And we won't cover abortions or contraception because they are predictable.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Breaking your leg is not the predictable, intended, designed outcome from skiing. That's an unintended consequence one should be "insured" by... "insurance"... against. No?
How do you "insure" against something that's going to happen predictably when you're doing something designed to cause that very outcome
So we will cover broken legs because they arn't predictable.
But we will cover children because they are predictable.
And we won't cover abortions or contraception because they are predictable.
I see you have ignored the "doing something designed to cause that very outcome" part. Predictably. Recompute. Try again. I'm patient tonight.
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You guys can go around in circles all night long ,but the bottom line here is AA and Paul are on the losing end of this issue and in the end what they say is irrelevant.
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Breaking your leg by mistake while skiing = unpredictable, so we will cover them.
Getting pregnant by mistake from having sex = predictable and "designed" so we won't cover contraception or abortions.
Getting pregnant and having a kid on purpose = predictable and "designed" so we will cover having the kid and the kid's health care for 26 years.
Nope, still doesn't make any sense.
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Tych2 posted:
Groupthink and mob rule is AWESOME!!
Spoken like a true... Democrat.
tsk tsk, Tych.
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Now I am a dem? Yesterday IMHO was screaming that I was a conservative. Do you understand why I laugh at you guys?
Ultimately sucks for you guys that are on the losing side. There is a reason way mob rules.
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paulg_68 posted:
Groucho48 posted:
Explain how covering it makes it more expensive. You posted some gibberish about it earlier, but, it didn't make much sense. As I linked, studies show it lowers insurance costs.
Were you aware that insurance and birth control pills are not the same thing?
Groucho48 posted:
My thinking is that, if it saves insurance companies 15-17%, the riders they would offer could easily cut the overall insurance premium by 5% and everyone saves money.
Women taking birth control lowers the cost of providing insurance. This is true whether they pay more for birth control pills or less for birth control pills. In fact the benefits are exactly the same regardless of which price they pay. As such, it's actually cheaper overall if they pay less for the birth control pills when you factor in both the cost of insurance and the cost of birth control pills.
From what I can gather, you are saying that woman getting a, say, 5% discount on their health insurance premium AND getting their pills covered is adding expense, when, instead, they could pay the full premium and then pay, separately, a little less for birth control pills.
Even if I agree that health insurance drives the cost of pills higher...which is a big "if", as health insurance companies have a much, much, much better chance of negotiating good prices than individuals do, having to pay for them separately AND paying a higher monthly premium doesn't come across as cheaper to me.
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Voodoo-Dahl
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Tych2 posted:
Groupthink and mob rule is AWESOME!!
Spoken like a true... Democrat.
tsk tsk, Tych.
That's kind of funny coming from you. When people here don't agree with whatever article you post from WNDhedge.com, out come the goldfish gifs.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Tych2 posted:
Now I am a dem? Yesterday IMHO was screaming that I was a conservative. Do you understand why I laugh at you guys?
Sounds like you are in need of re-thinking your core principles so you come off as being a bit more consistent then, eh?
Abaddon posted:
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Yukishiro1
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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If we insure against unexpected and unintended events it seems like we should cover abortions and contraception but not cover kids themselves. AA's argument leads to a result completely backwards from what he thinks it does.
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Tych2
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You crack me up AA. I am going to take my cues on core principles from you guys?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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-----signature-----
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
we aint coverin no womun problums!
birth control is just about the perfect item for insurance to cover. It reduces costs compared to pregnancy, it improves health outcomes for those taking it and it improves the quality of life. Reducing costs, improving health, making life better.
But lots of dummies have been very bothered by birth control since it came into existence.
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It's threads like these that demonstrate that Libertarians are really just the same old Republican crap with different branding.
Just a different flavor of misogyny for the culture war.
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In your mind how does cheaper birth control translate into misogyny?
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illmyrin
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Having babies costs more money than taking birth control. It's in the insurance companies best interest to not pay for birthing costs.
I read nothing that was wrote on this thread except the title's question. If I copied anyone, grats, you're not a fking idiot.
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paulg_68 posted:
In your mind how does cheaper birth control translate into misogyny?
No, it doesn't. That's why we are in favor of insurance having to cover contraception. An insurance company can get a much lower price than an individual can, as I've already mentioned.
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Then why don't you buy everything through an insurance company?
I'm sure they'd be willing to take their 20% cut on everything you buy in exchange for trying to get you good prices.
Why not do it?
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And btw they don't get better prices. Try going to a doctor and telling them you don't have insurance so you need to pay cash. If they don't give you a 25% discount off of what they bill insurance, go to the next doctor down the street and he will give you the discount.
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Ashmaele
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We need to define away everything so that nothing is covered and we save billions.
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paulg_68 posted:
And btw they don't get better prices. Try going to a doctor and telling them you don't have insurance so you need to pay cash. If they don't give you a 25% discount off of what they bill insurance, go to the next doctor down the street and he will give you the discount.
Unpossible, I have been told from very reliable people that insurance companies are very good at keeping prices down.
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paulg_68 posted:
Then why don't you buy everything through an insurance company?
I'm sure they'd be willing to take their 20% cut on everything you buy in exchange for trying to get you good prices.
Why not do it?
You really have no idea how things work, do you?
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paulg_68
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I successfully predicted you wouldn't try to get insurance companies to buy all your stuff for you because you actually know it wouldn't lower the price.
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paulg_68
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
paulg_68 posted:
And btw they don't get better prices. Try going to a doctor and telling them you don't have insurance so you need to pay cash. If they don't give you a 25% discount off of what they bill insurance, go to the next doctor down the street and he will give you the discount.
Unpossible, I have been told from very reliable people that insurance companies are very good at keeping prices down.
Better than the government, but that's setting the bar pretty low.
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So, an insurance company goes to a maker of contraceptives. "We expect to pay for 10 million sets of birth control pills a month. What kind of discount can you give us. We checked with Acme and they offered a 20% discount."
Insurance companies will not only be able to get the pills much more cheaply than an individual could, they also realize they will save money on every woman who takes birth control pills. It's win-win.
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People get them from pharmacies, not from pill makers.
I'm surprised you didn't know this.
And btw many times the pharmacies charge the insurance companies more than they charge people paying cash. In fact there was just a thread on the subject right here on the Outpost a few days ago.
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paulg_68 posted:
People get them from pharmacies, not from pill makers.
I'm surprised you didn't know this.
You are embarrassing yourself.
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It's certain that one of us is.
Ask your wife where she used to get her pills and find out which.
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I don't have a wife.
A woman who doesn't have insurance goes to a pharmacy and pays $20. for a month's supply of pills.
A woman with insurance goes to a pharmacy and shows her insurance card and walks away with a month's supply of pills.
The woman pays about $15. a month for the birth control rider.
The woman pays less. The insurance company saves money by not having to pay for pregnancy care or for 26 years of insurance on the kid.
Drug company gets less per pill but makes it up in volume.
Win-win-win.
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I do have a wife. There's no "birth control rider" on our insurance plan.
Insurance companies have overhead and profit. You're adding a middle man to the equation. Even if they got the price down (and they don't) it still wouldn't change the fact that it would cost more because of the extra layer.
At least I've got you to realize that women buy their pills from a pharmacy and not directly from a drug company. We're making progress even if it's baby steps.
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paulg_68 posted:
I do have a wife. There's no "birth control rider" on our insurance plan.
Insurance companies have overhead and profit. You're adding a middle man to the equation. Even if they got the price down (and they don't) it still wouldn't change the fact that it would cost more because of the extra layer.
At least I've got you to realize that women buy their pills from a pharmacy and not directly from a drug company. We're making progress even if it's baby steps.
Then you must live in one of the 22 states that don't require birth control coverage. Sucks for you.
And it still doesn't make any difference where a woman buys the pills. What matters is can the woman or can the insurance company negotiate a lower price for the pills.
Under the new coverage, the woman will get a rider directly from the insurance company. If the rider costs $25 a month and she is currently paying $20. then, she will not take the rider. She will only take the rider if it is cheaper. I have faith that the insurance companies will find a way to give her a rate under $20 and still make money. Apparently, you don't. Why do you have such little faith in the power of the market?
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Faith. Yes that is at the core of all of your economics.
We get our pills paid for via insurance. There is no rider for it though. We're over paying since we have to cover the cost of the insurance company overhead and profit. If we bought the pills directly we wouldn't have to cover that cost.
Explain again how that cost is magically negative thanks to Obama. Does he use fairy dust or a magic wand?
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paulg_68 posted:
Kjarhall posted:
paulg_68 posted:
We can have the same stuff at a lower cost. Is it worth more because we pay more?
Unsubstantiated assumption.
You don't believe that insurance companies have overhead and profit or that doing paperwork consumes manpower?
Ah, now for the non answer with a red herring. Your schtick is old and tired.
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paulg_68 posted:
Better than the government, but that's setting the bar pretty low.
IT is clear you don't know how insurance works or how government pays for health care.
You are a doofus of epic proportions.
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Actually, my last post was in error. There will be no charge for the birth control rider. So, we'd have to look behind the scenes to decide whether overall costs to consumers would be higher or lower.
Insurance companies, under Obamacare, must use at least 85% of premiums for actual medical costs. So, that leaves 15% for administrative costs and profits. As it turns out, the savings for health insurance companies by offering birth control as opposed to not offering it, is in the 15-17% range. So, a wash there. The big question then becomes...can the insurance companies make a better deal on the cost of birth control than individual consumers can? I say they can. At worst, I don't see them paying MORE for birth control than individual consumers. So, worst case scenario is that consumers break even on cost.
As to the original question. It's covered because insurance companies can make a profit on it and because a large majority of women want it to be covered. Your free market at work.
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Nothing is free, to say otherwise is grounds for an instant F on your economics test.
But this will make manufactures happy who gleefully support corporatism.
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I bet its the Jew's fault!
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It's the fault of dummies who buy into nonsense that any good or service can be free.
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I am not buying it. I think its the evil Jews! 
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Only misogynists or mystics support the concept of keeping birth control a seperate issue and not subject to all the rules that govern any other health issue.
Why? Because they hate women and want to punish them for living because their god told them it was ok to do so....
Christians that hate Muslims should really look at how they are both alike in hating on females, then have a gay orgy to celebrate their dislike.
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Only economic illiterates believe in the fairy tale that government can successfully make businesses provide goods and services cheaper than legitimate competition can.
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Aerlinthian posted:
Nothing is free, to say otherwise is grounds for an instant F on your economics test.
Free Owl Pellets
Free Pile
Free Carp
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Hsi_Kang posted:
Free Owl Pellets
Free Pile
Free Carp
Congratulations on flunking out. As stated, to produce any good or service there is a cost. Because YOU may receive something without a direct cost to you does not mean that the good or service was produced without cost because that is literally impossible. As in defies the laws of physics.
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What's the cost of the owl pellets?
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What is the cost to feed, house, care for, collect?
Think rabbit think.
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Subject:
Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Aerlinthian posted:
What is the cost to feed, house, care for, collect?
Think rabbit think.
Feed=$0
House=$0
Care for=$0
Collect=$0
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Tych2
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Omg you forgot your time!!!! That cost stuff! Blame the Jews.
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Kapie
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Aerlinthian
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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You can mislabel if you want but that won't make it true. All living creatures have a energy budget that MUST be satisfied. To put energy out, you must put in a fuel source. To collect materials you must expend energy and materials to contain materials. To ship materials you have a very long chain of actions and productions that must occur to successfully ship & receive something.
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Tych2
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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C'mon you know you want to say it!! You know you wanna.
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We have enough youth. What we need is a fountain of smart.
Drill Anwar!
Kapie
Drevid in Tanks
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Aerlinthian
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Subject:
Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Tych2 posted:
C'mon you know you want to say it!! You know you wanna.
I'll let him say it for me.
http://youtu.be/U73xKgbXh68
Trollollpwned
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Tych2
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Subject:
Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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You know you want to blame the Jews. C'mon say it.
I never said birth control was free fool.
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Drill Anwar!
Kapie
Drevid in Tanks
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Aerlinthian
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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^ Owned and doesn't even know it.
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Groucho48
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Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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It's really very simple. It's cheaper for insurance companies to provide birth control than it is to not provide birth control.
Let's take all the insurance companies out. You are newly married. You will pay ALL your family's medical expenses out of pocket. Over the next 50 years, would it be cheaper for you to pay for birth control and have two kids, or not pay for birth control and have 12 kids?
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“Science is like sex: sometimes something useful comes out, but that is not the reason we are doing it.†– Richard Feynman
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Tych2
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Subject:
Why is birth control covered by insurance?
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Aerlinthian posted:
^ Owned and doesn't even know it.
You showed me.
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Drill Anwar!
Kapie
Drevid in Tanks
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sweeny_comodore
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Jesus? No, but there is indeed a god shaped hole in the heart of man, why is yours so empty? -- snarf igraine the original monotheism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phallus
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