tenkly
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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you should get it for 6 months, but need a viable reason to be on it after that. Too many people are sitting back collecting assistance waiting for the "perfect job" to fall into their lap. That never happens.
I'm sick and tired of seeing people complain that life sucks because they are poor ( collecting welfare) but all they do is waste money on drugs, liquor and smokes.
Like.. hey assholes, when I put money in my CPP ( canadian pension plan)every pay, I know I'll be getting it back when I'm old. When I get taxes taken out of me going to welfare it's money that's contributing to nothing good and money I will never see again.
I'm now siding with PaulG on his idea that we should convince poor people to get fixed for 10k. Less failures we have, the better.
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__Bonk__
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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It should be temporary
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paulg_68
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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After a short period of time it should become exceedingly unpleasant to receive welfare.
The problem is that it's not really all that unpleasant for a lot of people so they have no motive to get off the dole.
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__Bonk__
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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I got help from the government for a short period of time. It was a life saver but then it ended
Thats how it should be.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Subject:
Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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paulg_68 posted:
After a short period of time it should become exceedingly unpleasant to receive welfare.
The problem is that it's not really all that unpleasant for a lot of people so they have no motive to get off the dole.
Yup.
Lose voting rights. Have to start doing mandatory volunteer/service work. Etc.
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tenkly
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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__Bonk__ posted:
I got help from the government for a short period of time. It was a life saver but then it ended
Thats how it should be.
You did what everyone on welfare should do : make an effort. You're doing good now and much you're much happier. If only we can show them that being independent is a much better feeling.
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Yukishiro1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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There is no dole in America any more except for kids. Who you can't very well punish because of who their parents happen to be. Paul would probably say "take the kids away from the parent and then terminate their benefits" but taking kids away from their parents is never going to be very popular except among the asshole demographic.
There are no more welfare queens. Not like there used to be. There are people who basically spend their whole lives gaming the system using things like disability and UI but you don't have an open-ended right to welfare any more in this country.
Canananandia is probably different.
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Bobvillas
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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It is still generational sadly, in my neck of the woods.
My brother in law was a teacher at an inner city school and he once put his finances up on the chalk board to help his students see a way of life outside of what they were growing up in.
He said the kids said why would you pay all of that money when you can get those things for free.
This sort of thing needs to be better explained.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
There are people who basically spend their whole lives gaming the system using things like disability and UI...
...and child benefits/WIC. Which, between the three of them, has created a generation of welfare queens.
Believe it.
We all know some of them. We've covered it on this board before. And face it. Multiply it out. If we all know some of them, there are a shitload of them.
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Yukishiro1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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If you have a kid as soon as you're 18 you can basically stay on the child benefits welfare train forever.
That's really the only welfare entitlement left. All the others are temporary things. If you really abuse the system you can get a similar effect to the old welfare dole but it isn't like you automatically get the check in the mail just because you asked like you used to.
The system is very much set up to not be a career now. People can still make a career out of defrauding the system but that's a different issue with different solutions.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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You conveniently leave out food stamps... section 8...
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Yukishiro1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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Section 8 isn't an entitlement.
Food stamps are, you're right. The vast majority of people getting food stamps work, though. Food stamps don't let you be a career welfare bum. For the vast majority of recipients food stamps are exactly the "helping hand, not a career" Tenkly is talking about.
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Bonzoboy1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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I would like to see a serious effort made to curtail the welfare fraud, people should not be able to work under the table and get welfare nor should unmarried women with kids be able to claim absent partner when they are really living with them. The problem is that right now fraud is rarely investigated.
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Yukishiro1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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Bonzoboy1 posted:
I would like to see a serious effort made to curtail the welfare fraud, people should not be able to work under the table and get welfare nor should unmarried women with kids be able to claim absent partner when they are really living with them. The problem is that right now fraud is rarely investigated.
This is true and I agree with it completely. The issue with welfare now is not the basic design but fraud on the system.
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Phlegm573
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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The worst form of welfare is disability. Maybe that's because I'm exposed to it a lot. But that has to be the most damning form of welfare. It isn't "oh I'm a bit banged up and need some temporary help." It's "I'm useless to the workforce like tits on a boar FOREVER, I will NEVER get better, and I have this signed letter from an MD to prove it!"
The vast majority of disability claims are pure bs... Yeah sure, you got low back pain or you have anxiety. So do the rest of us. Deal with it or at least be more honest about your attempts to mooch off the system.
The weird thing is, most of the people who actually do have a medically legit claim at disability, want a doctor's note to prove they CAN work.
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__Bonk__
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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My brother is on permanent diability and so is his girlfriend. They feel no urge to work at all. She is super smart and college educated and could do a part time office type job and he is pretty fit and could do a more manual job part time but neither of them want to work
Also they both walk a couple of miles every so often for exercise yet they both use disabled parking permits and take advantage of that.
They both also live in apartment complexes much nicer than mine and they pay nothing to live there. Its all paid by the government.
Once on disability unless you are kicked off it mean you are on it for life. There is very little incentive to get off of it. My brother doesnt want to work and support himself. If he did he would start to work part time.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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Phlegm573 posted:
The worst form of welfare is disability. Maybe that's because I'm exposed to it a lot.
UI scams and <cough> what qualifies as disability <cough> in our pussified society are what I hear about daily. As discussed before, my wife works in benefits management with scores of companies. She sees this virtually every day. She has new stories and examples of the idiocy... virtually every day.
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smellymotor
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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over here you have to go to the welfare office once per week and you have to apply for at least 5 jobs or something. if you dont do that you lose your welfare payment for the next 4 weeks. Also depending on your age and how long you have been unemployed you have to work for the dole to. cleaning up freeways and parks etc
or if you are part abbo you just get money and a house to stay out of the way of white people
the system still gets gamed though but we have relatively low unemployement here
its about having a safety net and not a hammock.
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Mastara
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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it should be temporary and I believe passing drug tests before approval and random tests during would be a good way to go about it. Maybe even some sort of home visit.
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Rosaria
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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__Bonk__ posted:
My brother is on permanent diability and so is his girlfriend. They feel no urge to work at all. She is super smart and college educated and could do a part time office type job and he is pretty fit and could do a more manual job part time but neither of them want to work
Also they both walk a couple of miles every so often for exercise yet they both use disabled parking permits and take advantage of that.
They both also live in apartment complexes much nicer than mine and they pay nothing to live there. Its all paid by the government.
Once on disability unless you are kicked off it mean you are on it for life. There is very little incentive to get off of it. My brother doesnt want to work and support himself. If he did he would start to work part time.
I remembered you saying your brother's apartment was much nicer than yours and all of his living expenses are paid for for life. I don't get it.
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Ashmaele
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
paulg_68 posted:
After a short period of time it should become exceedingly unpleasant to receive welfare.
The problem is that it's not really all that unpleasant for a lot of people so they have no motive to get off the dole.
Yup.
Lose voting rights. Have to start doing mandatory volunteer/service work. Etc.
I think everyone who receives any type of public assistance should be REQUIRED to vote.
WHO'S WITH ME???
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Yukishiro1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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Phlegm573 posted:
The vast majority of disability claims are pure bs... Yeah sure, you got low back pain or you have anxiety. So do the rest of us. Deal with it or at least be more honest about your attempts to mooch off the system.
Blame doctors. The legal system - for good reason - relies on doctor's opinions to determine whether someone is really disabled or not. Because judges have no real clue. They arn't trained for it.
There would be no disability fraud if there weren't doctors out there happy to write something up saying the person is disabled. Almost no one ever gets disability without a doctor's opinion that they can't work.
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Bonzoboy1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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People who are paying for the welfare system have no faith in it after over 50 years of continual abuse. I think people on welfare should be tested for drugs and alcohol not because I have a problem with either but if they can afford to spend money on those they don't need welfare.
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__Bonk__
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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Rosaria posted:
__Bonk__ posted:
My brother is on permanent diability and so is his girlfriend. They feel no urge to work at all. She is super smart and college educated and could do a part time office type job and he is pretty fit and could do a more manual job part time but neither of them want to work
Also they both walk a couple of miles every so often for exercise yet they both use disabled parking permits and take advantage of that.
They both also live in apartment complexes much nicer than mine and they pay nothing to live there. Its all paid by the government.
Once on disability unless you are kicked off it mean you are on it for life. There is very little incentive to get off of it. My brother doesnt want to work and support himself. If he did he would start to work part time.
I remembered you saying your brother's apartment was much nicer than yours and all of his living expenses are paid for for life. I don't get it.
It is nicer. Its in a newer apartment building, a low income retirement apartment complex what lets a few disabled people live there. The building is a security building and his apartment is about the same size as mine with better newer appliances.
To get this apartment he had to apply and wait for it. He was in a very bad apartment in ballard years ago.
His girlfriend lives in even a better apartment. The building is brand new and the apartment is even larger than mine with brand new appliances. She scored big
Unfortunately both are horders and their apartments are full of stuff/junk and my brother is too paranoid to open the blinds to let light in.
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theredkay1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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Im game for testing and anything else you want to throw at welfare recipients.....as soon as we propose the same thing for everyone else who benefits from public policy.
Everyone who directly benefits from trade policy (dr's, lawyers, pharma to name a few)...everyone who elects to take tax subsidies (mortgage interest, kids, healthcare etc)...everyone who benefits greatly from cheap gov't insurance (the financial industry)...everyone who reclassifies income as capital gains for the taxpayer handout...
Fraud enforcement for all of these gov't handouts should be stepped up.
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__Bonk__
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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My brother and his girlfriend could both work part time jobs. People on disability need to do some sort of work any and it should be required.
Work is the best therapy. Is it fun? Hell no but you feel better about yourself when you are working
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Yukishiro1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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If you can work you arn't (totally) disabled.
Part of the problem is that once we find someone disabled we typically never really follow up.
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__Bonk__
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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My brother worked part time when he was disabled. He didnt like it because he said the treated him badly so hes never worked again.
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Yukishiro1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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If that's true he should be getting less money. If you can work at a job and choose not to typically the amount you could make is deducted from your disability check.
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Brother_Tempus
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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welfare given voluntarily is called charity
welfare given by government is called thievery
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theredkay1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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The majority of people in the US volunteered it. The majority can pull it back. 
thats how the country works nancy
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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theredkay1 posted:
Im game for testing and anything else you want to throw at welfare recipients.....as soon as we propose the same thing for everyone else who benefits from public policy.
Everyone who directly benefits from trade policy (dr's, lawyers, pharma to name a few)...everyone who elects to take tax subsidies (mortgage interest, kids, healthcare etc)...everyone who benefits greatly from cheap gov't insurance (the financial industry)...everyone who reclassifies income as capital gains for the taxpayer handout...
Fraud enforcement for all of these gov't handouts should be stepped up.
You see... that's the real point that's been made here 1,000 times. All these government handouts, subsidies, government picking winners, and crony capitalism with public funding should be ended.
Thus ending this kind of idiotic argument, above, from people like yourself.
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Brother_Tempus
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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theredkay1 posted:
The majority of people in the US volunteered it.
incorrect as usual
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GrilledCheez
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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I like that EIC/foodstamps/disability/school assistance/housing assistance/grants etc = no dole to Yuki. It doesn't matter how many times you point it out either.
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Yukishiro1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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Food stamps are the only entitlement on your list. If you want to consider any money anyone gets from the gubmint as welfare you can do that but I'm not sure how useful a definition that is.
Most of what you are calling "welfare" are programs that subsidize low income wage earners, i.e. people who are working. EITC is a big example of this. A welfare queen of the old style would get 0 in EITC.
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Bonzoboy1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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On another board one of the regulars efiled his taxes the second he got his W-2 and got his return direct deposited and went out and bought a 60" tv and said he never would have been able to afford it without the EIC. I know everyone has heard stories like this but it is crazy that welfare is used to buy luxury items.
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Ptilk
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Welfare is a tiny problem in the USA these days. Less than 1% of the working age population receives it at all, and the average monthly benefit is under 100 dollars per recipient. It costs taxpayers less each year than it cost to wage that stupid war in Iraq for a month.
Food Stamps are a big deal and cost a lot of money, but they also keep millions of people from starving. Literally. The problem isn't the program, the problem is that wages are so low that people who work full time can't afford to fucking eat. Bitching about the cost of keeping them alive is not only disgusting, it's pointless and stupid....as food stamps actually keep many stores in business and avoid having millions more people out of work and costing much more in UI and other types of aid. Yes, even the cost of burying them would be more than keeping food on their tables. Fix the problem not the symptom.
UI costs a lot, but it's a necessary safety net that any capitalistic society requires. Without it, the problems created would dwarf any possible cost that maintaining it ever will. Again, deal with the problem (Need for decent paying jobs), not the symptom.
Assistance programs are easy targets for mouth breathers. They can throw out words like lazy, cheater, and parasite and feel all superior and righteous. In reality, the vast majority of people who are on any of these programs use them briefly....then get back on their feet. Railing against the tiny amount of people who successfully game the system is an exercise is pointlessness. Bitch about something that actually costs money, like the nearly one trillion we spend each year on "security", or the 400 billion we give away in corporate welfare to companies that make multi-billion dollar profits, or the nearly 100 billion we lose to companies that cheat medicare, ect, ect, ect....
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Bonzoboy1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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I have no problems giving a safety net to people who really need it but draw the line at people who abuse the system.
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Ptilk
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Draw the line all you want. I can't imagine anyone approves of cheaters, but again....it's a tiny, tiny percentage of the people who ever use any of these programs that cheat. So bitching about the programs themselves is stupid. Scream for bigger penalties and tougher enforcement if you actually want to fix the problem.
Oh, as for EITC...as I've said countless times before...it's a load of crap and should be eliminated immediately. Doing so would save hundreds of billions a year, and wouldn't adversely affect anyone except except the first quarter profits of discount and electronics stores. Walmart would end up laying off a couple of hundred thousand people for a month or two though.
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GrilledCheez
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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Ptilk posted:
Welfare is a tiny problem in the USA these days. Less than 1% of the working age population receives it at all, and the average monthly benefit is under 100 dollars per recipient. It costs taxpayers less each year than it cost to wage that stupid war in Iraq for a month.
Food Stamps are a big deal and cost a lot of money, but they also keep millions of people from starving. Literally. The problem isn't the program, the problem is that wages are so low that people who work full time can't afford to fucking eat. Bitching about the cost of keeping them alive is not only disgusting, it's pointless and stupid....as food stamps actually keep many stores in business and avoid having millions more people out of work and costing much more in UI and other types of aid. Yes, even the cost of burying them would be more than keeping food on their tables. Fix the problem not the symptom.
UI costs a lot, but it's a necessary safety net that any capitalistic society requires. Without it, the problems created would dwarf any possible cost that maintaining it ever will. Again, deal with the problem (Need for decent paying jobs), not the symptom.
Assistance programs are easy targets for mouth breathers. They can throw out words like lazy, cheater, and parasite and feel all superior and righteous. In reality, the vast majority of people who are on any of these programs use them briefly....then get back on their feet. Railing against the tiny amount of people who successfully game the system is an exercise is pointlessness. Bitch about something that actually costs money, like the nearly one trillion we spend each year on "security", or the 400 billion we give away in corporate welfare to companies that make multi-billion dollar profits, or the nearly 100 billion we lose to companies that cheat medicare, ect, ect, ect....
Ptilk proves once again that you can say anything you want at any time regardless of accuracy.
I don't see how federal low income housing assistance is not welfare though. It's a payout of cash based on need. Scarecrows are always the best, but completely redefining words based on them seems a little outrageous to me.
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Bonzoboy1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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The people who abuse the system cause more damage than they know, people hear of the abuses and see nothing is being done, then the belief spreads among many that the whole program is a waste of money. It is much better for all concerned if the abuse is stopped.
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GrilledCheez
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Yuki's definition of welfare is taking something from the government and never ever working, or trying to work at all ever.
he uses this definition because he thinks conservatives are stupid about most things and definitely welfare.
He thinks this is a conservative definition.
Yeah think about that for a second.
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Yukishiro1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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GrilledCheez posted:
I don't see how federal low income housing assistance is not welfare though. It's a payout of cash based on need.
Sort of. It's not an entitlement. In most places less than 30% of qualifying people actually get it. And most of the people who get it do work, although they may not work too much.
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Yukishiro1
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GrilledCheez posted:
Yuki's definition of welfare is taking something from the government and never ever working, or trying to work at all ever.
That seems to be what people generally rant about about welfare. People who just sit around on their asses and collect cash for it.
There isn't typically nearly as much hate (except maybe from you) for minimum wage earners then collecting payments on top of it to make it a living wage.
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GrilledCheez
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I don't hate welfare. I hate liars.
I was actually talking today with my buds about a society where every need is paid for by the gov't. I am not tied to any one philosophy about gov't, entitlements, pay, capital, labor or anything else. but pretty universally liberals are wrong factually about how they perceive gov't welfare programs. I don't really care about that much, except for the way it informs their philosophies. Believing you can have enough programs to provide a poor person a decent life and that also poor people would rather work than take that money is not a logical view, and it is born out that it is not a logical view by lots of evidence. Even with the massive obfuscations like EIC, huge child tax credits, etc it is still evident that when given the choice of a similar lifestyle most people will gladly take a check from the gov't to do less work.
You have fairly pointed out that there is disinformation and lack of understanding prevalent on the right. What you fail to grasp is that it exists equally on the left. Only on the right it exists among the unwashed. On the left it exists among the "erudite."
At the end of the day it isn't about cost in tax dollars it is about cost in competitiveness. it is about cost in human waste. Freedom exists proportionally to opportunity at nearly all income levels we would consider middle class and below. And in MANY ways you make your own of both. What's the point of living in a great nation with great opportunity and great philosophies if situations will give you an incentive to not achieve?
Most of our problems are problems of opportunity. more welfare is gasoline on that fire.
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Phlegm573 posted:
The vast majority of disability claims are pure bs... Yeah sure, you got low back pain or you have anxiety. So do the rest of us. Deal with it or at least be more honest about your attempts to mooch off the system.
Blame doctors. The legal system - for good reason - relies on doctor's opinions to determine whether someone is really disabled or not. Because judges have no real clue. They arn't trained for it.
There would be no disability fraud if there weren't doctors out there happy to write something up saying the person is disabled. Almost no one ever gets disability without a doctor's opinion that they can't work.
I agree that disability needs a huge overhaul in this country. Someone at work told me a child can get a disability check if they have ADD. I have also worked with clients who want to work and could find employment suitable to their situation, but they don't want to lose the healthcare that comes with SSI.
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BubbleDude
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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Ptilk posted:
Draw the line all you want. I can't imagine anyone approves of cheaters, but again....it's a tiny, tiny percentage of the people who ever use any of these programs that cheat.
Bullshite.
Again I point to Disability, Worker's comp.
The very fact that SO MANY get away with it -- and conversely so many people who legitimately NEED it have to jump through 2-4 years of hoops and spend $'s on lawyers -- is something I lay squarely on the large government supporters of both parties.
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Brother_Tempus posted:
welfare given voluntarily is called charity
welfare given by government is called thievery
Incorrect. You have given your consent to pay taxes by virtue of citizenry. You can always reject that and move to a country that doesn't require you to pay. Your freedom is intact.
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theredkay1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
theredkay1 posted:
Im game for testing and anything else you want to throw at welfare recipients.....as soon as we propose the same thing for everyone else who benefits from public policy.
Everyone who directly benefits from trade policy (dr's, lawyers, pharma to name a few)...everyone who elects to take tax subsidies (mortgage interest, kids, healthcare etc)...everyone who benefits greatly from cheap gov't insurance (the financial industry)...everyone who reclassifies income as capital gains for the taxpayer handout...
Fraud enforcement for all of these gov't handouts should be stepped up.
You see... that's the real point that's been made here 1,000 times. All these government handouts, subsidies, government picking winners, and crony capitalism with public funding should be ended.
Thus ending this kind of idiotic argument, above, from people like yourself.
I largely agree. But that point is rarely made here. Ending subsidies for others is mentioned all the time....ending subsidies for me is rarely mentioned....most even like to argue their subsides arent really handouts.
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theredkay1
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Welfare is made to be a helping hand, not a career.
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Brother_Tempus posted:
theredkay1 posted:
The majority of people in the US volunteered it.
incorrect as usual
this is how laws are made
you need a basic civics course...and you probably need to retake it a dozen times.
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Elocism
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Yukishiro1
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
The very fact that SO MANY get away with it -- and conversely so many people who legitimately NEED it have to jump through 2-4 years of hoops and spend $'s on lawyers -- is something I lay squarely on the large government supporters of both parties.
How do you fix the system? As someone who basically does these things for a living, I'm all ears. It's a real problem. But all the solutions tend to just make things worse for people who really need it. You are identifying two problems that are linked to one another such that the more you try to prevent fraud the more you hurt people who really are disabled and the more you try to streamline things for the truly disabled the more fraud you allow.
As long as the system remains based on doctors diagnosis I don't see how that can change.
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