God Almighty posted:

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Sin_of_Onin posted:

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Sounds like you guys never got your pony as a kid and are now butthurt.

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Sin_of_Onin posted:

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Sounds like you guys never got your pony as a kid and are now butthurt.

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Eager_Igraine posted:

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If you do right and live right, God will answer your prayers. So obviously, if God isn't answering your prayers, you suck.

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tenkly posted:

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If god is real, how come he doesn't exist? Check mate.

Atheists : 9000 religion : -1

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IMHO posted:

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Sin_of_Onin posted:

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Sounds like you guys never got your pony as a kid and are now butthurt.

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They do have a lot of preconceived notions about God. I can understand them not wanting to believe with their thinking the way it is.

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Rosaria posted:

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Everyone else believes in a magical tooth fairy so I am right and you are wrong

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Akza posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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Everyone else believes in a magical tooth fairy so I am right and you are wrong

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IMHO posted:

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Eager_Igraine posted:

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If you do right and live right, God will answer your prayers. So obviously, if God isn't answering your prayers, you suck.

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God always answers prayers, sometimes people just don't like the answer He gives, because some people think they know better.

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reesescups posted:

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Eager_Igraine posted:

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IMHO posted:

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Eager_Igraine posted:

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If you do right and live right, God will answer your prayers. So obviously, if God isn't answering your prayers, you suck.

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God always answers prayers, sometimes people just don't like the answer He gives, because some people think they know better.

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I'm interested in the factual evidence behind your contention and await your further presentation thereof.

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Ashmaele posted:

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reesescups posted:

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This looks cool whatever it is.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Just live a good life and don't worry too much. Some of you waste so much time hating on other people over religion or lack of religion or whatever else.

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Halloweve posted:

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To the op, I can't answer for all people who pray to God..but I can for myself, no I don't think that nor have I ever..and that includes when I don't get what I have asked for.
I do believe with everything I am, that all the bad and all the good that has happened to me has only made me closer to God.
I will even go so far as to share my most basic prayer to God...being thankful, asking for wisdom and favor.
~peace

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Sin_of_Onin posted:

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Sounds like you guys never got your pony as a kid and are now butthurt.

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Rosaria posted:

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Ah, this is where the atheists tell us they are more enlightened, more evolved, and more astute than the billions of Buddhists, Shintoists, Hindi, Christians, and Muslims that ever were and ever will be.

I await your flow of brilliance and promise not to correct your basic language errors. Continue.

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Manegarm posted:

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Nope, just less in need of a crutch to handle life.

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Manegarm posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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Ah, this is where the atheists tell us they are more enlightened, more evolved, and more astute than the billions of Buddhists, Shintoists, Hindi, Christians, and Muslims that ever were and ever will be.

I await your flow of brilliance and promise not to correct your basic language errors. Continue.

---

Nope, just less in need of a crutch to handle life.

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Corky_Aloof posted:

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This is what really riles Atheists.

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Rosaria posted:

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Manegarm posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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Ah, this is where the atheists tell us they are more enlightened, more evolved, and more astute than the billions of Buddhists, Shintoists, Hindi, Christians, and Muslims that ever were and ever will be.

I await your flow of brilliance and promise not to correct your basic language errors. Continue.

---

Nope, just less in need of a crutch to handle life.

---

Manglow you're a trust fund baby. I don't think you're in a position to talk about crutches to handle life.

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tenkly posted:

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Eager_Igraine posted:

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IMHO posted:

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[quote=Eager_Igraine]If you do right and live right, God will answer your prayers. So obviously, if God isn't answering your prayers, you suck.

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God always answers prayers, sometimes people just don't like the answer He gives, because some people think they know better.

---

I'm interested in the factual evidence behind your contention and await your further presentation thereof.

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Tych2 posted:

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Corky_Aloof posted:

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This is what really riles Atheists.

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Not all of us do. Just the fundie ones. Enkidu, Reese, and Manny to name a few. They have a problem. I am with Yuki on this enjoy your life and be nice to each other.

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Tych2 posted:

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Just live a good life and don't worry too much. Some of you waste so much time hating on other people over religion or lack of religion or whatever else.

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QFT.

I couldn't agree more.


Enkidu, I think you take their crazy personally!

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Manegarm posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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Ah, this is where the atheists tell us they are more enlightened, more evolved, and more astute than the billions of Buddhists, Shintoists, Hindi, Christians, and Muslims that ever were and ever will be.

I await your flow of brilliance and promise not to correct your basic language errors. Continue.

---

Nope, just less in need of a crutch to handle life.

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SoBaKi posted:

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This would be an especially honorable position to take except for the fact that most religious folks love to legislate their beliefs for EVERYONE else.

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Tych2 posted:

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SoBaKi posted:

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This would be an especially honorable position to take except for the fact that most religious folks love to legislate their beliefs for EVERYONE else.

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Do like I do then if that bothers you. Don't vote for them.

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Manegarm posted:

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The only difference is when I turned 23 my monetary issues went bye bye.

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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:

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Manegarm posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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Ah, this is where the atheists tell us they are more enlightened, more evolved, and more astute than the billions of Buddhists, Shintoists, Hindi, Christians, and Muslims that ever were and ever will be.

I await your flow of brilliance and promise not to correct your basic language errors. Continue.

---

Nope, just less in need of a crutch to handle life.

---

You think you're fundamentally different from someone because they believe in god?

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_Enkidu_ posted:

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Tych2 posted:

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Corky_Aloof posted:

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This is what really riles Atheists.

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Not all of us do. Just the fundie ones. Enkidu, Reese, and Manny to name a few. They have a problem. I am with Yuki on this enjoy your life and be nice to each other.

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Rosaria posted:

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Ah, this is where the atheists tell us they are more enlightened, more evolved, and more astute than the billions of Buddhists, Shintoists, Hindi, Christians, and Muslims that ever were and ever will be.

I await your flow of brilliance and promise not to correct your basic language errors. Continue.

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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Ah, this is where the atheists tell us they are more enlightened, more evolved, and more astute than the billions of Buddhists, Shintoists, Hindi, Christians, and Muslims that ever were and ever will be.

I await your flow of brilliance and promise not to correct your basic language errors. Continue.

---

buddhists dont really pray to god. they dont even really believe in a god the way you do.
im pretty sure the shintoits dont really either.

in fact, im pretty sure they are both pagans.
so you probably shouldnt include them in a pro christian argument

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SoBaKi posted:

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This would be an especially honorable position to take except for the fact that most religious folks love to legislate their beliefs for EVERYONE else.

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Rosaria posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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Ah, this is where the atheists tell us they are more enlightened, more evolved, and more astute than the billions of Buddhists, Shintoists, Hindi, Christians, and Muslims that ever were and ever will be.

I await your flow of brilliance and promise not to correct your basic language errors. Continue.

---

buddhists dont really pray to god. they dont even really believe in a god the way you do.
im pretty sure the shintoits dont really either.

in fact, im pretty sure they are both pagans.
so you probably shouldnt include them in a pro christian argument

---

My argument was not pro Christian at all. Many of the world's living religions do not have a central god or may have multiple gods. Shintoism is poly-theistic except during a period in its history where it was supplanted by Buddhism and under its dominance. In other words, it has many gods and is much closer to animism with the exclusion of Buddhism's more comprehensive approach to 'sentient beings'. Both religions recognize an inner-connectedness of all beings [in Buddhism, sentient, in Shintoism all existence] Both religions use prayer, in Buddhism prayer flags and prayer wheels are also used, and those prayers have more to do with overall well-being of all connected things rather than specifically praying for something to happen or not happen.

Both Shintoism [regionally dependent] and Buddhism have at their core peace with self and purity or clarity of thought with compassion being one of the highest forms of enlightenment. Buddhism is far more ritualized than Shintoism - its very hard to find a Shinto priest because basically Shintoism believes no one has moral or spiritual ascendancy over anyone else.

I am personally familiar with both Shintoism and Buddhism. The fundamental athiests make no distinctions between religions, all of the billions of adherents are somehow lesser than they are. Doesn't make any difference to me one way or the other but it does to them, which is comical.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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SoBaKi posted:

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This would be an especially honorable position to take except for the fact that most religious folks love to legislate their beliefs for EVERYONE else.

---

I hardly think religious people have a monopoly on legislating their views on others. Why not focus on the legislating your views on others bit and not the religious bit?

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Rosaria posted:

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I am personally familiar with both Shintoism and Buddhism. The fundamental athiests make no distinctions between religions, all of the billions of adherents are somehow lesser than they are. Doesn't make any difference to me one way or the other but it does to them, which is comical.

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Rosaria posted:

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That's what I said, you're a trust fund baby talking about other people using crutches. Its like you referring to all Americans as fat yet Sweden had to institute a rigorous campaign to combat the greatly increasing number of Swedes who are obese. Or you mockingly point to the high crime rate in the US yet according to Interpol Sweden has a high crime rate compared to other industrialized countries. Your life is just as insulated as your country. You see what you choose to see. Of course you think life is perfect there and you have all the answers - you get money for breathing.

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Snarf_Igraine posted:

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mammogram doesnt have a crutch!!

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__Bonk__ posted:

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Funny how some people cant stand that others believe differently than they do.

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Manegarm posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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That's what I said, you're a trust fund baby talking about other people using crutches. Its like you referring to all Americans as fat yet Sweden had to institute a rigorous campaign to combat the greatly increasing number of Swedes who are obese. Or you mockingly point to the high crime rate in the US yet according to Interpol Sweden has a high crime rate compared to other industrialized countries. Your life is just as insulated as your country. You see what you choose to see. Of course you think life is perfect there and you have all the answers - you get money for breathing.

---

How is this even relevant to the discussion at hand? I said religion and poverty goes hand in hand and you went of on this agitated bitter tirade about my finances and things that has no meaning in this debate, fact remains poverty and religion goes hand in hand and you guys have an overabundance of both.

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Manegarm posted:

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This is a forum of debate if people do not like having their values questioned I suggest they scamper off elsewhere.

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Scarne posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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I am personally familiar with both Shintoism and Buddhism. The fundamental athiests make no distinctions between religions, all of the billions of adherents are somehow lesser than they are. Doesn't make any difference to me one way or the other but it does to them, which is comical.

---

Some atheists just don't like anything supernatural being taken seriously. Shintoism certainly has plenty of supernatural elements. Many (I'm not sure if all) sects of Buddhism have supernatural elements such as karma and reincarnation. There are almost no religions which are completely free of supernatural elements so they are all the same to that style of atheist.

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Rosaria posted:

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Scarne posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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I am personally familiar with both Shintoism and Buddhism. The fundamental athiests make no distinctions between religions, all of the billions of adherents are somehow lesser than they are. Doesn't make any difference to me one way or the other but it does to them, which is comical.

---

Some atheists just don't like anything supernatural being taken seriously. Shintoism certainly has plenty of supernatural elements. Many (I'm not sure if all) sects of Buddhism have supernatural elements such as karma and reincarnation. There are almost no religions which are completely free of supernatural elements so they are all the same to that style of atheist.

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Why would it possibly matter what those atheists like or don't like?

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reesescups posted:

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You seem to care a lot about what Atheists belief and say...

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Rosaria posted:

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I am stating that you have your crutches as do other people. You crystallize your world view from a position of great comfort and security and in the process have denied unquestionable realities about even where you live.

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Rosaria posted:

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reesescups posted:

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You seem to care a lot about what Atheists belief and say...

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I'm sorry, I thought this was a discussion. I shouldn't question what atheists say, just nod and accept. I'll just read the rest of the thread then?

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Rosaria posted:

---

Scarne posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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I am personally familiar with both Shintoism and Buddhism. The fundamental athiests make no distinctions between religions, all of the billions of adherents are somehow lesser than they are. Doesn't make any difference to me one way or the other but it does to them, which is comical.

---

Some atheists just don't like anything supernatural being taken seriously. Shintoism certainly has plenty of supernatural elements. Many (I'm not sure if all) sects of Buddhism have supernatural elements such as karma and reincarnation. There are almost no religions which are completely free of supernatural elements so they are all the same to that style of atheist.

---

Why would it possibly matter what those atheists like or don't like?

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Manegarm posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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I am stating that you have your crutches as do other people. You crystallize your world view from a position of great comfort and security and in the process have denied unquestionable realities about even where you live.

---

I do not need to delude myself about reality to cope with it, I do not need to lie to myself that the life after this one will be better because my life is good.

Now if I lived in shitkicker US without any real education, no money, 3 jobs, debt and medical bills I might despair but I don't need to and neither does the rest of my Swedish brethren because life here isn't that hard.

As for obesity, well that's a problem for the whole western world.. it's however reached epidemic proportions in the US, and crime well it might be higher then the average for industrialized nation but Swedes tend to report more on crimes, crime is still not a growth industry like in the US where prisons are money machines.

Our economy grew this year, we have a surplus in the treasury and things are actually looking good, jobs are lagging but that is it. We do not have any real poverty, the little we have is fugitives whom we take in who have little or nothing to begin with.

Your blatant accusation that I'm not informed about my own nation is idiotic, I read two newspapers every morning, I read books on our political history every day and I'm going to study states science and political science come autumn. I'm a member of a party which byline has always been to help those in need and to abolish poverty, you're sadly misinformed.

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Manegarm posted:

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I think it's awesome that we disagree, I would not want it any other way.

It would be hellishly boring if everyone here just had the same opinion on everything.. While I don't agree with any religion and find them all absurd and childish I still don't want to convert anyone, people should believe whatever makes them happy just be ready to get called on your shite if you voice it.

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Scarne posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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Scarne posted:

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[quote=Rosaria]I am personally familiar with both Shintoism and Buddhism. The fundamental athiests make no distinctions between religions, all of the billions of adherents are somehow lesser than they are. Doesn't make any difference to me one way or the other but it does to them, which is comical.

---

Some atheists just don't like anything supernatural being taken seriously. Shintoism certainly has plenty of supernatural elements. Many (I'm not sure if all) sects of Buddhism have supernatural elements such as karma and reincarnation. There are almost no religions which are completely free of supernatural elements so they are all the same to that style of atheist.

---

Why would it possibly matter what those atheists like or don't like?

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Scarne posted:

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And it can matter in that if you want atheists to respect your beliefs, you should probably respect their beliefs as well.

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reesescups posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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reesescups posted:

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You seem to care a lot about what Atheists belief and say...

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I'm sorry, I thought this was a discussion. I shouldn't question what atheists say, just nod and accept. I'll just read the rest of the thread then?

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Can do whatever you like, you know that...

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Rosaria posted:

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reesescups posted:

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Can do whatever you like, you know that...

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Is this a discussion or not, let me know.

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Rosaria posted:

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I read your papers as well. I read about your obesity epidemic, I read about your crime rate, I read about your comparative poverty level. I rarely say anything to you because you are so thin-skinned about it you make Dae look rational.

I have not voiced any religious beliefs at all. You however have voiced your beliefs over and over, week after week, until its mechanical reguritation. I cant imagine you find that interesting.

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Manegarm posted:

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Reese usually makes GW threads

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reesescups posted:

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Manegarm posted:

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Reese usually makes GW threads

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Gah - I knew I was forgetting something on my todo list...

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Corky_Aloof posted:

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Manegarms thin foreskin is comforted by his many vices afforded by his lifestyle, so no crutch is needed.

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Corky_Aloof posted:

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Manegarms thin foreskin is comforted by his many vices afforded by his lifestyle, so no crutch is needed.

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Manegarm posted:

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I make threads about religion post in threads about religion, it's a interest of mine on this forum, if you don't want to argue about it or don't want to see my posts I suggest you scamper off to avoid that butthurt of yours.

I do however make a lot more threads about cooking and funny stuff and books then religion.

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reesescups posted:

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You are asking me, I think you give me too much credit...

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Rosaria posted:

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Manegarm posted:

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I make threads about religion post in threads about religion, it's a interest of mine on this forum, if you don't want to argue about it or don't want to see my posts I suggest you scamper off to avoid that butthurt of yours.

I do however make a lot more threads about cooking and funny stuff and books then religion.

---

You just said you get butthurt then accuse me of being butthurt, and that is solely due to you being thin-skinned. I am very interested in religion and study it from different perspectives, going back a few millenium to the present. I want to discuss it but there is nothing to discuss with you and many others because when it comes down to discussion, you actually know very little about religion other than your opinion of it. You end up with people like sweeny saying Buddhists are pagan and people just nod. I study religion because its fascinating to me and I will read anything I can get my hands on that is scholarly and well translated, or has had their translation verified. So, what about religion specifically did you want to discuss? I'm reading a good book on physics, the unification theory, and buddhism, would you like to discuss that?

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Manegarm posted:

---

We could start with the political upheaval in Europe after Martin Luther proclaimed his thesis and if the leaders whom took to Protestantism was really inspired by a new faith or just the thought of getting their hands on the riches of the catholic church.

I do not need to know about the gospell, just what actions they have taken in the world and how it affected history I care little what religions say about themselves it's their actions that count and how it changed humanity and society.

I'm in no way interested in the spirituality or ideas surrounding Buddism because I think it's crock in the same way I do not need to know every gospell or every story in the bible and I don't need to because it's not relevant; I know what happened when Christianity became the states religion in Rome, I'm in no way interested in discussing the meanings of different holy texts because I don't see them as anything but fiction and wholly unholy.

My knowledge of religion is mainly historical I know the basics of every religion, that is more then enough because I'm never going to find myself quoting scripture when I can use history to further my arguments instead.

I could not care less about Sweeny and his lack of education, nor do I care if Buddists are pagans or martians.

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tenkly posted:

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Corky_Aloof posted:

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Manegarms thin foreskin is comforted by his many vices afforded by his lifestyle, so no crutch is needed.

---

I'm not a trust fund baby. I'm successful for my age ( same age as mane, maybe a year younger) and I like to drink and do drugs once in a while and party. WTF does that have to do with needing a crutch in life? Could it be that.. it's actually fun and we enjoy having fun? Maybe we actually live life the way we want , and not how a book tells to? I do whatever the hell I want, when I want. I adapt and deal with whatever consequences come from it. It's how life should be to me : Be careless,carefree and enjoy every minute of it.

Your argument is invalid. Needing a book to make you feel better about why you're here because you can't accept the fact that we're not that special is not the same as partying and having a great time with awesome people. Life is too short to live it based on how someone or something else thinks you should live.

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Rosaria posted:

---

---

tenkly posted:

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It was more of a reply to you posting the liquor and the E pills.

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Rosaria posted:

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You end up with people like sweeny saying Buddhists are pagan and people just nod.

---

2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.

4. pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim.

Manegarm posted:

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I love the tales of the Asean religion I grew up with those while the Norse religion does not have any real moral tenets besides bravery, dying in battle and having alcohol as a holy sacrament the stories still speak of honesty and steadfastness as good traits that and a martial nature..

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Scarne posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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You end up with people like sweeny saying Buddhists are pagan and people just nod.

---

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pagan

2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.

or

4. pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim.

It all depends on the definition of "pagan" being used.

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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it also covers followers of polythiestic religions, like buddhists and shintoists

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Rosaria posted:

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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it also covers followers of polythiestic religions, like buddhists and shintoists

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Buddhists are not poly-theistic. They do not believe in a god at all.

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Scarne posted:

---

Rosaria posted:

---

You end up with people like sweeny saying Buddhists are pagan and people just nod.

---

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pagan

2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.

or

4. pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim.

It all depends on the definition of "pagan" being used.

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

Rosaria posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

it also covers followers of polythiestic religions, like buddhists and shintoists

---

Buddhists are not poly-theistic. They do not believe in a god at all.

---

so you are retarded...




here, go edumacate yourself, little one
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/family-tree.shtml

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Rosaria posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

it also covers followers of polythiestic religions, like buddhists and shintoists

---

Buddhists are not poly-theistic. They do not believe in a god at all.

---

Manegarm posted:

---

tenkly posted:

---

It was more of a reply to you posting the liquor and the E pills.

---

That was Snarf, big guy.

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sweeny_comodore posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

Rosaria posted:

---

[quote=sweeny_comodore]

it also covers followers of polythiestic religions, like buddhists and shintoists

---

Buddhists are not poly-theistic. They do not believe in a god at all.

---

so you are retarded...




here, go edumacate yourself, little one
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/family-tree.shtml

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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:

---

And yes, morons like Sweeney will try to bridge Devas or other higher consciousness state beings with 'gods' in the Christian sense, despite the clear fact that they aren't.

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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:

---

Rosaria posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

it also covers followers of polythiestic religions, like buddhists and shintoists

---

Buddhists are not poly-theistic. They do not believe in a god at all.

---

Welllll... I know what you mean here and why you're trying to simplify it for those trying to be simpletons (probably in jest). But that's not precisely true, either. As you probably know. It depends on the particular Buddhist tradition.

A couple schools don't preclude the idea of a 'god' (beyond Devas). But even their concept of what may be considered analogous to a Christian 'god' is more of the ultimate unifying force or state of being... not necessarily a conscious entity. CERTAINLY not an entity who created man in his image, and perhaps not an entity responsible for creation itself. Pondering creation of this universe is pretty universally viewed by Buddhists as useless or even counter productive.

I've studied this a bit over the last few years. I've been thinking very seriously about the four noble truths, of late.

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Eager_Igraine posted:

---

IMHO posted:

---

Eager_Igraine posted:

---

If you do right and live right, God will answer your prayers. So obviously, if God isn't answering your prayers, you suck.

---

God always answers prayers, sometimes people just don't like the answer He gives, because some people think they know better.

---

I'm interested in the factual evidence behind your contention and await your further presentation thereof.

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Rosaria posted:

---

Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:

---

Rosaria posted:

---

[quote=sweeny_comodore]

it also covers followers of polythiestic religions, like buddhists and shintoists

---

Buddhists are not poly-theistic. They do not believe in a god at all.

---

Welllll... I know what you mean here and why you're trying to simplify it for those trying to be simpletons (probably in jest). But that's not precisely true, either. As you probably know. It depends on the particular Buddhist tradition.

A couple schools don't preclude the idea of a 'god' (beyond Devas). But even their concept of what may be considered analogous to a Christian 'god' is more of the ultimate unifying force or state of being... not necessarily a conscious entity. CERTAINLY not an entity who created man in his image, and perhaps not an entity responsible for creation itself. Pondering creation of this universe is pretty universally viewed by Buddhists as useless or even counter productive.

I've studied this a bit over the last few years. I've been thinking very seriously about the four noble truths, of late.

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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:

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@Sweeney -- Beyond what I already explained in the last two posts... they don't have a god or gods in ANY sense.

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IMHO posted:

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I love it when Sweeny calls some one a tard...

I'm sure the irony is lost on him.

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sweeny_comodore posted:

---

youre the one who said the use prayer wheels and flags....


i love it when you tards cant even keep your own arguments straight

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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IMHO posted:

---

I love it when Sweeny calls some one a tard...

I'm sure the irony is lost on him.

---

i completely understand and encourage the perception you all have of me here.

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Rosaria posted:

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sweeny_comodore posted:

---

youre the one who said the use prayer wheels and flags....


i love it when you tards cant even keep your own arguments straight

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They do, they use both, I have used both. They do not pray to a god, there is no god, there is no heaven or hell, there is no divine retribution, there is no fear of a godlike wrath, there is no one to intervene for you when you die, there is no one to guide to you an afterlife, you will not be rewarded in a heaven because there is none, you will not be punished in hell because it does not exist, there is only this life as we know it, you can choose to be conscious and be harmonious with yourself and all sentient beings or you can choose to be ignorant, something you seem very comfortable with.

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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:

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@Rosie --

Firstly, I understand and agree Buddhism is not 'polytheistic'. In any definition. Despite the issues of translating words like Deva into English which can kindof end up with an incorrect translation as 'a god'.

I secondly agree and know Buddhists don't precisely pray to a god. Nor do they pray to those who are still trapped in the cycle but have achieved higher states of consciousness, although they study their examples for guidance.

I thirdly assert Buddhists in most traditions don't believe in praying TO any entity for 'salvation' in any way... but rather 'find the path and truth for oneself.'

However. In Theravada Buddhism at least, it has been explained to me that the Buddha did not specifically exclude the possibility that there is a god. However, it is generally viewed that if there IS such a thing or concept in any way, it falls in line with the many limits I gave above. It is not a Christian god, in any real sense.

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Rosaria posted:

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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:

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@Rosie --

Firstly, I understand and agree Buddhism is not 'polytheistic'. In any definition. Despite the issues of translating words like Deva into English which can kindof end up with an incorrect translation as 'a god'.

I secondly agree and know Buddhists don't precisely pray to a god. Nor do they pray to those who are still trapped in the cycle but have achieved higher states of consciousness, although they study their examples for guidance.

I thirdly assert Buddhists in most traditions don't believe in praying TO any entity for 'salvation' in any way... but rather 'find the path and truth for oneself.'

However. In Theravada Buddhism at least, it has been explained to me that the Buddha did not specifically exclude the possibility that there is a god. However, it is generally viewed that if there IS such a thing or concept in any way, it falls in line with the many limits I gave above. It is not a Christian god, in any real sense.

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Theravada Buddhism does not exclude the possibility of a god, but his or her existence is unimportant. If god existed he would be another sentient being, nothing more, nothing less. There is no creation, no all powerful, nothing to pray to, no bestower of favors, no source of punishment. It simply is not an important question enough to pursue.

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Rosaria posted:

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There are no entities that buddhists pray to.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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There are no entities that buddhists pray to.

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This is clearly an unequivocally wrong as a general statement. In fact, the majority of buddhists in the world probably do pray to gods or spirits or whatever you want to call them. Only a very small percentage to buddhists throughout history have practiced a form of buddhism that had no place for gods or spirits.

Buddhism is like any other religion. It started in a very pure form that was probably not really a religion at all. But like all successful religions within a few generations people were back to worshipping saints/spirits/devils like people are wont to do the world over.

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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:

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There you go. No disagreement on that. As far as it goes.

It's... complicated to put such meaningful thoughts into the pitiful thing that is human language. And then cross-translate between two languages across 2000 years.

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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but their silky smoothness feels soo goood....

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Rosaria posted:

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Manegarm posted:

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I love the word Mythology, especially when believers use it to describe another religion.

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Rosaria posted:

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If you believe Buddhists pray to spirits you will have to show me documentation for it, because in all the research I've done I've never seen it stated.

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Rosaria posted:

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... there is no god, there is no heaven or hell, there is no divine retribution, there is no fear of a godlike wrath, there is no one to intervene for you when you die, there is no one to guide to you an afterlife, you will not be rewarded in a heaven because there is none, you will not be punished in hell because it does not exist, there is only this life as we know it, you can choose to be conscious and be harmonious with yourself and all sentient beings or you can choose to be ignorant, something you seem very comfortable with.

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Rosaria posted:

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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There are no entities that buddhists pray to.

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This is clearly an unequivocally wrong as a general statement. In fact, the majority of buddhists in the world probably do pray to gods or spirits or whatever you want to call them. Only a very small percentage to buddhists throughout history have practiced a form of buddhism that had no place for gods or spirits.

Buddhism is like any other religion. It started in a very pure form that was probably not really a religion at all. But like all successful religions within a few generations people were back to worshipping saints/spirits/devils like people are wont to do the world over.

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They do not pray to spirits. Spirits if they exist are inferior to human beings and human beings are considered to be an idealized form of existence. If you believe Buddhists pray to spirits you will have to show me documentation for it, because in all the research I've done I've never seen it stated.

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Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

Groucho48 posted:

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Here's how I look at things. Marcus Aurelius...

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

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_Enkidu_ posted:

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That's blasphemy!

You can't have any morals without religion! It's unpossible!

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_Enkidu_ posted:

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That's blasphemy!

You can't have any morals without religion! It's unpossible!

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_Enkidu_ posted:

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Clearly you fail at both science and philosophy. Anything you can learn you can learn better using science. Go back and read up on epistemology, which you'll find in philosophy where it talks about the ways of knowing, including science.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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If you continue to ignore the problem maybe it will go away. That would be super scientific.

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_Enkidu_ posted:

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I know, religious people hate the heat and wish these threads would go away

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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If you believe Buddhists pray to spirits you will have to show me documentation for it, because in all the research I've done I've never seen it stated.

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Here's an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Heavenly_Kings

If you just want to fight over definitions and say many buddhists worship saints or devas or some other word but not gods that's not an argument I'm particularly interested in. Many Buddhists clearly pray to and worship supernatural beings.

Then there's the whole jodo shinshu thing where you can be saved just by repeating a prayer to the buddha. I don't know what you want to call that but I'd call it worship.

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Moe_Nox posted:

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Its about 50-1 with the stupidity tilting to the militant atheists side.

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_Enkidu_ posted:

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We've already been through this, yuki. You and onin clearly stated that your beliefs come from intuition and epistemology makes it pretty clear that's the wrong way to go. So what's there left to talk about? How you guys don't understand philosophy? How is that going to be any fun?

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Rosaria posted:

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The four heavenly kings are essentially north, south, east, and west. The names of the kings are used to refer to the person who has the teachings and spirit of that king flowing in him. If you were to adhere to the virtues represented by one of the kings you would be referred to with his name. There is some mythology around their children but I am really unsure where that plays into Buddhism at this time. The number 4 is repeated throughout the centuries, four kings, four elements, four continents of meaning, etc. some of which have been discarded in the face of scientific evidence to the contrary.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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_Enkidu_ posted:

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We've already been through this, yuki. You and onin clearly stated that your beliefs come from intuition and epistemology makes it pretty clear that's the wrong way to go. So what's there left to talk about? How you guys don't understand philosophy? How is that going to be any fun?

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So basically you can't describe to me any experiment that would allow you to come to conclusions about what "good" is by any objectively verifiable method. When confronted with that basic fact you resort to appeals to authority and other logical fallacies.

Glad we cleared that up. You are a dogmatic religious thinker who doesn't realize he's a dogmatic religious thinker.

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Rosaria posted:

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I still can't believe anyone would say Yuki derives his beliefs from intuition. WTF

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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The four heavenly kings are essentially north, south, east, and west. The names of the kings are used to refer to the person who has the teachings and spirit of that king flowing in him. If you were to adhere to the virtues represented by one of the kings you would be referred to with his name. There is some mythology around their children but I am really unsure where that plays into Buddhism at this time. The number 4 is repeated throughout the centuries, four kings, four elements, four continents of meaning, etc. some of which have been discarded in the face of scientific evidence to the contrary.

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People who considered themselves buddhists have been praying to the 4 heavenly kings and various manifestations of the buddha for thousands of years. You can try to say they arn't buddhists but I'm not sure how effective that is.

There's always been a tension in buddhism between the pure, philosophical version practiced by a select few and the layman's version which is basically similar to most other religions in that it has a pantheon people pray to for various benefits.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Every time we have one of these conversations my opinion of Enkidu's intelligence goes down considerably.

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