Sin_of_Onin posted:

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Home school students should be able to take part in all sorts of activities IMO.

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article posted:

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Twenty-two states currently require public schools to allow homeschoolers some type of access to classes or sports. These include Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Utah, Vermont, Washington, and Wyoming.

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Moe_Nox posted:

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Its a good idea and one that will grow. I have news for you home school haters, it is a trend that will grow large enough to become the norm, not the exception.

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Ptilk posted:

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My sister worked for many years that they home schooled, as did her husband.

She was actually a school teacher (sorta ironic or at least weird for a home schooler) and worked from 7-3 weekdays, and he drove a truck and worked nights. The kids had "classes" with both of them, some in the morning and some in the evening till they got older (12 or so)...then they had "mentors" that they would study and work with during the day, and did their book studying in the early evenings.

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Bonzoboy1 posted:

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I wonder if the legislature will vote by Tebowing?

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Opponents, including some school boards and PTAs, say home-schooled kids are not required to meet the same academic criteria as public school athletes — attend and pass five classes per day

Tych2 posted:

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I don't know why anyone wouldn't support this law. Seems like common sense to me.

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Ashmaele posted:

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From the article I linked:

Opponents, including some school boards and PTAs, say home-schooled kids are not required to meet the same academic criteria as public school athletes — attend and pass five classes per day

Supporters of this: Is this not a valid point?

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Allstarslacker posted:

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The academic criteria are there to make sure the school and students are more focused on education than sports. In a home school environment the parent is responsible for making that call. I'm sure a good parent wouldn't let their child play if they were falling behind on their studies.

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Ashmaele posted:

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From the article I linked:

Opponents, including some school boards and PTAs, say home-schooled kids are not required to meet the same academic criteria as public school athletes — attend and pass five classes per day

Supporters of this: Is this not a valid point?

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Bonzoboy1 posted:

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Virginia is going trying to pass a law that would allow home school students to participate in school sports, I wonder if the legislature will vote by Tebowing?

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Ashmaele posted:

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Tych2 posted:

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I don't know why anyone wouldn't support this law. Seems like common sense to me.

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It is common sense that public school kids have to pass in order to play but the same criteria shouldn't be applied to home schooled kids?

Okay then..

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Tych2 posted:

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Are you really against home schooled children playing sports with public schooled children?

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Ashmaele posted:

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From the article I linked:

Opponents, including some school boards and PTAs, say home-schooled kids are not required to meet the same academic criteria as public school athletes — attend and pass five classes per day

Supporters of this: Is this not a valid point?

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ZigmundZag posted:

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Ashmaele posted:

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From the article I linked:

Opponents, including some school boards and PTAs, say home-schooled kids are not required to meet the same academic criteria as public school athletes — attend and pass five classes per day

Supporters of this: Is this not a valid point?

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If your kid is homeschooled past grade 8, they still need to participate in standardized testing (maybe even before that, I'm not completely sure). If they perform poorly on the tests, they shouldn't be taking extracurricular activities at the school.

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Tych2 posted:

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I don't know why anyone wouldn't support this law. Seems like common sense to me.

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Ashmaele posted:

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I could see it working out if the parents had different work schedules like this, but this is the exception not the norm.

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Taliesihne posted:

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Tych2 posted:

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I don't know why anyone wouldn't support this law. Seems like common sense to me.

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Coaching the kids will be extremely difficult. The logistics involved alone are mind boggling. Then there's a fairness issue - what district to they register with?

Ash raised a fair question about academic integrity. Homeschooled kids are held to a lesser standard Academically as far as Mommy\Daddy can just give them a passing grade so they can play.

Then there's liability and insurance complications.

I'm not really looking at this as parent, but rather a coach. Which is already a thankless damn job (well, volunteer, a LOT of coaches aren't paid.)

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Ashmaele posted:

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Allstarslacker posted:

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The academic criteria are there to make sure the school and students are more focused on education than sports. In a home school environment the parent is responsible for making that call. I'm sure a good parent wouldn't let their child play if they were falling behind on their studies.

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A 'good parent' might not, but I think you are underestimating the lengths to which parents will go to 'provide' (insert your definition of that here) for their children.

Are there controls in place to ensure that Little Johnny (and not Big Johnny Senior) took the tests and passed the courses? (I honestly do not know)

Seems like it would be easy for dad to say, "Look! My son got all A's, put him in at quarterback, coach!" when dad was the one who took the tests. Unless the kid takes his tests at some kind of monitored testing center how would you prevent something like this?

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Taliesihne posted:

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Then there's a fairness issue - what district to they register with?

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Taliesihne posted:

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Ash raised a fair question about academic integrity. Homeschooled kids are held to a lesser standard Academically as far as Mommy\Daddy can just give them a passing grade so they can play.

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Ashmaele posted:

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From the article I linked:

Opponents, including some school boards and PTAs, say home-schooled kids are not required to meet the same academic criteria as public school athletes — attend and pass five classes per day

Supporters of this: Is this not a valid point?

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Allstarslacker posted:

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Ashmaele posted:

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Allstarslacker posted:

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The academic criteria are there to make sure the school and students are more focused on education than sports. In a home school environment the parent is responsible for making that call. I'm sure a good parent wouldn't let their child play if they were falling behind on their studies.

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A 'good parent' might not, but I think you are underestimating the lengths to which parents will go to 'provide' (insert your definition of that here) for their children.

Are there controls in place to ensure that Little Johnny (and not Big Johnny Senior) took the tests and passed the courses? (I honestly do not know)

Seems like it would be easy for dad to say, "Look! My son got all A's, put him in at quarterback, coach!" when dad was the one who took the tests. Unless the kid takes his tests at some kind of monitored testing center how would you prevent something like this?

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http://www.floridaschoolchoice.org/information/home_education/FAQs.asp#Evaluation

I'm sure they are different from state to state, but I'd imagine most of them require the child to be evaluated by someone other than the parents.

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(The legislation does not require the superintendent to inspect all portfolios.)

Tych2 posted:

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If it is okay with the state to graduate then I am okay with it.

As I said, I can't see this affecting a lot of children to begin with. Why ostracize them further because of actions not of their doing. I support inclusion.

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_Enkidu_ posted:

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Some places have a voucher system that gives home schoolers some tax breaks, they definately should have to give those up before their kids can play sports.

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Kjarhall posted:

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Personally, i've never seen anyone that came out better from it.

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Ashmaele posted:

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Some people might be skeptical about these cases existing, but Google the name "Tate Forcier" and go to the website maintained by his dad, qbforce.com, for the life story a kid who:

- was homeschooled
- appears to have mostly studied "football" during high school
- parents shopped him around to various high schools to showcase his athletic skills
- got a DI scholarship
- ...and has since failed out of two colleges

I'm sympathetic to home school kids who just want to play sports in their district, so I think reasonable accommodations should be made to allow that, but I think the concerns about dbag parents trying to turn "homeschooling" + access to high school sports into proxy minor leagues are also valid. High school and even very young amateur athletics are increasingly becoming commoditized (hello Rivals.com, ESPNU broadcasting high school football and basketball games, Pop Warner and Little World Series Games getting significant TV exposure, etc.). I don't see that abating anytime soon. The natural consequence of that is going to be dbag parents doing dbag things with their kids to garner that attention, or visibility for the next step toward a scholarship, or path to athletic superstardom, or whatever they're trying to get their rocks off to. I think schools should guard against that kind of behavior.

I can't say if this law or whatever policy it replaced was overly broad or not. Just that the whole "lol OF COURSE YOU LET HOMESCHOOL KIDS DO WHATEVER THEY WANT" meme seems equally problematic.

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Sin_of_Onin posted:

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Ashmaele posted:

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Some people might be skeptical about these cases existing, but Google the name "Tate Forcier" and go to the website maintained by his dad, qbforce.com, for the life story a kid who:

- was homeschooled
- appears to have mostly studied "football" during high school
- parents shopped him around to various high schools to showcase his athletic skills
- got a DI scholarship
- ...and has since failed out of two colleges

I'm sympathetic to home school kids who just want to play sports in their district, so I think reasonable accommodations should be made to allow that, but I think the concerns about dbag parents trying to turn "homeschooling" + access to high school sports into proxy minor leagues are also valid. High school and even very young amateur athletics are increasingly becoming commoditized (hello Rivals.com, ESPNU broadcasting high school football and basketball games, Pop Warner and Little World Series Games getting significant TV exposure, etc.). I don't see that abating anytime soon. The natural consequence of that is going to be dbag parents doing dbag things with their kids to garner that attention, or visibility for the next step toward a scholarship, or path to athletic superstardom, or whatever they're trying to get their rocks off to. I think schools should guard against that kind of behavior.

I can't say if this law or whatever policy it replaced was overly broad or not. Just that the whole "lol OF COURSE YOU LET HOMESCHOOL KIDS DO WHATEVER THEY WANT" meme seems equally problematic.

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That really doesn't justify not allowing kids to play sports.

This kid had parents who were willing to screw him over and that is why he failed out of colleges. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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Ashmaele posted:

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Maybe not, but it also doesn't justify not holding the home schooled kids to whatever minimum/up-for-debate standards to which the kids who attend schools are held.

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Sin_of_Onin posted:

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Ashmaele posted:

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Maybe not, but it also doesn't justify not holding the home schooled kids to whatever minimum/up-for-debate standards to which the kids who attend schools are held.

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What does sports have to do with homeschooling standards?

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Ashmaele posted:

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Ask the public school administrators. Or do you think there should be no academic standards at all, and no consequences for not maintaining a minimum GPA in each class? Should we let any kid who wants to play sports play sports, academics be damned?

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Sin_of_Onin posted:

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I would also be all for school becoming more segmented like College is so parents can pick and choose classes.

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Sin_of_Onin posted:

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Ashmaele posted:

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Ask the public school administrators. Or do you think there should be no academic standards at all, and no consequences for not maintaining a minimum GPA in each class? Should we let any kid who wants to play sports play sports, academics be damned?

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Who said anything about no academic standards for homeschooling?

I am asking why are the standards different for kids that want to play sports?

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Sin_of_Onin posted:

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I have no problem with standards by the way. I don't really see why you need a new set of standards for sports kids but whatever.

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Sin_of_Onin posted:

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What is really stupid IMO is not allowing them to play because they are home schooled which just punishes all home school kids arbitrarily.

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Ashmaele posted:

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Sin_of_Onin posted:

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I have no problem with standards by the way. I don't really see why you need a new set of standards for sports kids but whatever.

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I'm not talking about a new set of standards, I'm talking about applying an existing set of standards to a new group of participants.

Should participating in sports should be divorced from actually attending class? Or just for the kids whose parents are idiots and allow their kids to "homeschool" to lift weights, study playbooks and work on drills? Are you advocating for publically funded youth sports programs not tied to the public education system? I can maybe buy into that. I can imagine why we might see sport as a public good (for reasons I find personally questionable, like keeping kids fit and disciplined for compulsory military service and fast integration should the need arise) -- but no reason to tie it to academics or education. Or maybe the converse, where public schools and the states get out of the business of subsidizing amateur athletic activity altogether.

But given the current status quo, it seems unfair to setup a two-tiered system where some kids get to stay home and work on football drills all day and other kids have to actually attend class and perform their classwork to maintain standing/eligbility to play.

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Rosaria posted:

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That's a completely false argument. Who says kids stay home all day and work on football drills?

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Ashmaele posted:

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Sin_of_Onin posted:

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I have no problem with standards by the way. I don't really see why you need a new set of standards for sports kids but whatever.

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I'm not talking about a new set of standards, I'm talking about applying an existing set of standards to a new group of participants.

Should participating in sports should be divorced from actually attending class? Or just for the kids whose parents are idiots and allow their kids to "homeschool" to lift weights, study playbooks and work on drills? Are you advocating for publically funded youth sports programs not tied to the public education system? I can maybe buy into that. I can imagine why we might see sport as a public good (for reasons I find personally questionable, like keeping kids fit and disciplined for compulsory military service and fast integration should the need arise) -- but no reason to tie it to academics or education. Or maybe the converse, where public schools and the states get out of the business of subsidizing amateur athletic activity altogether.

But given the current status quo, it seems unfair to setup a two-tiered system where some kids get to stay home and work on football drills all day and other kids have to actually attend class and perform their classwork to maintain standing/eligbility to play.

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Ashmaele posted:

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Again, I will reiterate: I am not necessarily against denying home schooled kids the ability to play public school sports. What I am against is giving home schooled kids preferential treatment with regard to public school sports. I am not sure I made that clear in previous posts but that is my position. And it certainly does appear as though the law Bonzo referred to does that to some extent.

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Rosaria posted:

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Ashmaele posted:

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But given the current status quo, it seems unfair to setup a two-tiered system where some kids get to stay home and work on football drills all day and other kids have to actually attend class and perform their classwork to maintain standing/eligbility to play.

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That's a completely false argument. Who says kids stay home all day and work on football drills?

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Ashmaele posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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That's a completely false argument. Who says kids stay home all day and work on football drills?

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I am not saying that kids stay home all day and work on football drills. I am saying that kids who DO stay home all day and work on football drills under the guise of being "home schooled" (see the example I posted above) should not get to skate by the academic standards the kids who attend school are held to.

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Rosaria posted:

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Ashmaele posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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That's a completely false argument. Who says kids stay home all day and work on football drills?

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I am not saying that kids stay home all day and work on football drills. I am saying that kids who DO stay home all day and work on football drills under the guise of being "home schooled" (see the example I posted above) should not get to skate by the academic standards the kids who attend school are held to.

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They are held to academic standards. You gave an example of one kid with very bad parents who sold him out. Maybe there are more, I don't know. Kids who are home-schooled are tested, in some school districts they come into class and take tests along with everyone else. I'm not sure why you are so vehemently set against it and nothing you've posted explains it.

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Ashmaele posted:

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Again, I will reiterate: I am not necessarily against allowing home schooled kids the ability to play public school sports. What I am against is giving home schooled kids preferential treatment with regard to public school sports. I am not sure I made that clear in previous posts but that is my position. And it certainly does appear as though the law Bonzo referred to does that to some extent.

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theredkay1 posted:

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Rosaria posted:

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Ashmaele posted:

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But given the current status quo, it seems unfair to setup a two-tiered system where some kids get to stay home and work on football drills all day and other kids have to actually attend class and perform their classwork to maintain standing/eligbility to play.

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That's a completely false argument. Who says kids stay home all day and work on football drills?

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It certainly seems possible.

If a small group of kids get to play group sports, thats great. But if the cost is another group of kids leaving school to focus on sports...is it worth it?

I think responsibility for policing this falls on the coaches. If they have a kid who has potential, its up to the coach to make sure the kid knows his next step in sports will rely on meeting some academic requirements.

Ash has a legitimate concern but my guess is the number of kids who do that will be very, very small.

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Sin_of_Onin posted:

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Ashmaele posted:

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Again, I will reiterate: I am not necessarily against denying home schooled kids the ability to play public school sports. What I am against is giving home schooled kids preferential treatment with regard to public school sports. I am not sure I made that clear in previous posts but that is my position. And it certainly does appear as though the law Bonzo referred to does that to some extent.

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If you consider being free of all the test of public school kids then homeschooling in general has a lot less requirements that can be considered special treatment. It is a measure that makes no sense because the nature of trying to have the government teach thousands of kids is significantly different than a parent teaching their child.

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Ashmaele posted:

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I ninja edited a typo in the post you quoted, "denying" should have read "allowing," sorry for the confusion!

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Ashmaele posted:

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Again, I will reiterate: I am not necessarily against allowing home schooled kids the ability to play public school sports. What I am against is giving home schooled kids preferential treatment with regard to public school sports. I am not sure I made that clear in previous posts but that is my position. And it certainly does appear as though the law Bonzo referred to does that to some extent.

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Rosaria posted:

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Ashmaele posted:

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Again, I will reiterate: I am not necessarily against allowing home schooled kids the ability to play public school sports. What I am against is giving home schooled kids preferential treatment with regard to public school sports. I am not sure I made that clear in previous posts but that is my position. And it certainly does appear as though the law Bonzo referred to does that to some extent.

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How are they being given preferential treatment?

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Ptilk posted:

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I'm pretty sure they never would have managed it without a LOT of help from their crazy assed mega-church.

Lot of really nice people are members of that scary place, and they pitched in a lot over the years, helping tutor and even teaching full courses.

A retired military computer dude and his wife taught my nephew for a couple of years in his early teens, and by the time he was 16, he knew more about coding and crap than most people who go to college then work in the field for years. He started college and was bored out of his mind, so he dropped out and started his own company. He did, of course, have to take a bunch of certification things just to prove he actually knew what he was doing.

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Taliesihne posted:

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Two wrongs make a left, not a right.

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