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The US and Japan have resurrected a controversial deal to move thousands of Marines from the island of Okinawa.

The deal to move the Marines, signed in 2006, had depended on the closure of a US airbase on the island. But Japan has been unable to relocate the base.

However, both sides have now agreed to "de-link" the two issues, paving the way for the Marines' redeployment.

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Eager_Igraine posted:

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Are we really sure the Japanese are ready for independent governance without the watchful eye of US military occupation?

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Testerion posted:

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Theres no point in occopying Japan any further. Right now it would serve USAs interest if Japan decided to start massacring the Chinese again

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Tych2 posted:

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Testerion posted:

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Theres no point in occopying Japan any further. Right now it would serve USAs interest if Japan decided to start massacring the Chinese again

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I don't know a lot about that history, but I don't understand how Japan could do that to China. I will have to read up on it. It's something I've always wondered about. Did China just roll over?

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Tych2 posted:

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Testerion posted:

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Theres no point in occopying Japan any further. Right now it would serve USAs interest if Japan decided to start massacring the Chinese again

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I don't know a lot about that history, but I don't understand how Japan could do that to China. I will have to read up on it. It's something I've always wondered about. Did China just roll over?

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__Bonk__ posted:

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China is a paper tiger as a world power. They will self pwn a few years like they always do historically

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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China has traditionally been bad at fighting. I'm sure it eats Dae up but it's true. China has typically relied on buying off the barbarians at the gate rather than fighting them.

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__Bonk__ posted:

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The arabs, turks, mongols, and the rest never conquered europe. People here are stupid

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Uh the Tang dynasty was always having to pay off central asian folks.

Chinese armies have traditionally been well equipped but criminally mismanaged, especially when led by Chinese generals (who were often untrained courtiers). Their best armies tended to be lead by foreigners (usually central asians) and made up of a core of foreigners.

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dae_trist posted:

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I may not be an expert on this,

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Yuki posted:

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China has traditionally done little with a lot when it comes to war.

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Darkblade_The_Great posted:

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dae_trist posted:

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I may not be an expert on this,

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Yeah we know.

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DemonicXH posted:

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Why do you have such a hard on for China?

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Tych2 posted:

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DemonicXH posted:

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Why do you have such a hard on for China?

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It's like his bat signal. He can't help himself. He has this uncontrollable need to defend China.

Even though they are evil he has to defend them.

Its funny how they rolled over for the Japanese.

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Tych2 posted:

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See, he can't help himself.

China exploits child workers.

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Tych2 posted:

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Testerion posted:

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Theres no point in occopying Japan any further. Right now it would serve USAs interest if Japan decided to start massacring the Chinese again

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I don't know a lot about that history, but I don't understand how Japan could do that to China. I will have to read up on it. It's something I've always wondered about. Did China just roll over?

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Tych2 posted:

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China's military is very weak. Do they have a navy?

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Too many to count dude. Chang'an got sacked more times than Cabby's mom and woulda been sacked even more often if they hadn't paid people off over and over and over.

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Yukishiro posted:

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The mongols took so long to roll over China because they had to figure out how to roll people. Up until that point they were really good at pwning people in open battles but not so great at taking fortified positions. Once they figured it out they rolled through everyone until they got to Egypt.

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Yukishiro posted:

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China traditionally had large, well-equipped armies but incompetent commanders. When it had good commanders the commanders have tended to rebel or the incompetent politicians have tended to demand they resign.

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dae_trist posted:

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Too many to count dude. Chang'an got sacked more times than Cabby's mom and woulda been sacked even more often if they hadn't paid people off over and over and over.

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Every city has been "sacked" plenty of times.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Rome became the power it was because it was very good at fighting people. China has never been all that great at fighting other people. The first impulse of Chinese emperors has traditionally been to buy off the barbarians rather than try to really beat them.

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Rome became the power it was because it was very good at fighting people. China has never been all that great at fighting other people. The first impulse of Chinese emperors has traditionally been to buy off the barbarians rather than try to really beat them.

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That's not entirely fair. between 800-1000 the Byzantine Empire possessed the world finest military and they still preferred to buy off the bad guys and pay them to fight each other. Its simply cheaper.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Rome became the power it was because it was very good at fighting people. China has never been all that great at fighting other people. The first impulse of Chinese emperors has traditionally been to buy off the barbarians rather than try to really beat them.

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That's not entirely fair. between 800-1000 the Byzantine Empire possessed the world finest military and they still preferred to buy off the bad guys and pay them to fight each other. Its simply cheaper.

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What part of "became" is eluding you?

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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More than five hundred years passsed between the last sack of rome in the republican period and the first sack during the imperial period.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Rome became the power it was because it was very good at fighting people. China has never been all that great at fighting other people. The first impulse of Chinese emperors has traditionally been to buy off the barbarians rather than try to really beat them.

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Tych2 posted:

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DemonicXH posted:

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Why do you have such a hard on for China?

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It's like his bat signal. He can't help himself. He has this uncontrollable need to defend China.

Even though they are evil he has to defend them.

Its funny how they rolled over for the Japanese.

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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That being said, the Han pretty much exterminated, assimilated or colonised all their neighbours

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DemonicXH posted:

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It is kind of funny.

I'm still curious to know why though.


Dae are you of Chinese or Asian descent or something?


Or do you really like being able to purchase cheap electronics manufactured by a system that exploits child labor? Or maybe a Nike stockholder?


(Sorry I couldn't help myself)

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dae_trist posted:

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Rome became the power it was because the people it fought were incredibly weak, technologically backwards, incompetent, loosely organized if at all, fighting among themselves. They built upon that by being utterly savage and ruthless to the peoples they conquered, enslaving them wholesale, and backstabbing them constantly on every deal they made. As far as China goes, they were perpetually "buying off" everyone - that is, the tributary system was a net drain on the treasury.

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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dae_trist posted:

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Rome became the power it was because the people it fought were incredibly weak, technologically backwards, incompetent, loosely organized if at all, fighting among themselves. They built upon that by being utterly savage and ruthless to the peoples they conquered, enslaving them wholesale, and backstabbing them constantly on every deal they made. As far as China goes, they were perpetually "buying off" everyone - that is, the tributary system was a net drain on the treasury.

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Don't be stupid.

Rome went from being a bandit stockade to a world empire in a few centuries. They overcame extremely tough competition in what was then the world foremost military shark tank and built a state, that ultimately lasted 1500 years despite being surrounded by enemies and having no real natural frontiers. Yeah..they were tough.

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dae_trist posted:

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Are you kidding? China had no natural borders until they expanded their empire to the Himalayas thousands of miles away. The people in Western Eurasia were small fry compared to the Tibetans, Mongols, Turks and Tungus and the occasional Iranic Central Asian rabble rousers that harassed China for millennia. They were tough, but they were also huge assholes and not as militarily effective as the Chinese, especially for the same era.

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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Rome defeated civilised and organised powers that excelled it in wealth and sophistication in what was then the worlds richest and most populated regions and built a state that lasted over 1500 years. No Han state can claim the same.

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dae_trist posted:

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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Rome defeated civilised and organised powers that excelled it in wealth and sophistication in what was then the worlds richest and most populated regions and built a state that lasted over 1500 years. No Han state can claim the same.

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But but but ... China!!

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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No they weren't. In the relevant time period, up until about 50 ad (the greatest era of roman expansion) The richest most populated areas were the belt stretching from egypt to the ganges. The population of the Empire itself equalled the Han Empire.

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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And in this time period the population of Chang'an could have fit in Rome 4 times over.

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Tych2 posted:

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Talk about low hanging fruit. Everyone is getting into the rile Dae_twat up thing.

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dae_trist posted:

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Uh, are you implying that the Ganges was part of the Roman Empire and that Egypt's population was not counted in Rome's total?

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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And in this time period the population of Chang'an could have fit in Rome 4 times over.

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dae_trist posted:

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I suppose you think having lots of Romans stacked on top of each other like vermin, emptying their bedpans into the streets outside their windows, somehow demonstrates ideal living conditions. Lets not talk about the shit and garbage-filled alleyways of Rome. The key point here is that Rome and Han China had roughly the same populations - it's just that China's accomplished far more and were more evenly distributed around the territory.

The reason for Rome's name was due to China's diplomatic manner, as well as a lack of first-hand experience.

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Tych2 posted:

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Talk about low hanging fruit. Everyone is getting into the rile Dae_twat up thing.

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Manegarm posted:

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Tych2 posted:

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Talk about low hanging fruit. Everyone is getting into the rile Dae_twat up thing.

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Not that often that we get someone with that kind of stubborn butthurt incompetence.. It's just plain fun.

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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Yes, and one of the reason they 'became' is because they paid the barbarians to fight one another.

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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Okay, since you wont explain it, i will.

The name the Han gave the Roman empire was Da Qin, which translated means Great Qin, or Great China.

The Sinocentric worldview and the concept of Tianxia (All under heaven) basically stated that only the Chinese Emperor was sovereign, and the rest of the world was divided into China, semi-civilized sinified tributary states (places like Korea) and Barbarians. All the rulers of the earth were said to derive their authority from the Emperor and were subordinate to him.

In all the world the only other power the Chinese would grudgingly acknowledge might be their equals was Rome, and thus they were called Da Qin.

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