Sin_of_Onin
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This is one of the current Republican talking points that should result in action. There are way too many special considerations given to corporations in this country which need to be replaced by an across the board lower tax rate on corporations and small businesses. One of the dirty secrets of the Democratic party is how much they have pushed for special consideration to corporations in a kind of race to the bottom.
A race between Romney and Obama gives me little hope that we will move away from this model.
This is also a major issue at the state and local level where states are willing to give away money to corporations in a desperate attempt to increase employment.
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Aerlinthian
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You could count on one hand and still have fingers left over for who isn't a bought & paid for corporatist puppet.
http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cid=N00005906&cycle=2012
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Sin_of_Onin
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It is too bad he is a complete moron.
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Lyken-P
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I think the Government should just stop picking the losers.
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Aerlinthian
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Yeah he is such a moron that he is one of the few that accurately predicted and warned of the housing bubble. He is such a moron because he is the only one that accurately represents the constitution and stands by it. He is such a moron because he is the only one that actually returns money to the government instead of finding useless & wasteful crap to spend it on.
What a moron, what we need is a committed Keynesian, crook and liar to keep running us into debt and poverty. Yeah that's the ticket. 
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Sin_of_Onin
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Lyken-P posted:
I think the Government should just stop picking the losers.
That is the idea behind lowering the rate overall but the losers are really just picked by what is being subsidized by foreign nations.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Aerlinthian posted:
Yeah he is such a moron that he is one of the few that accurately predicted and warned of the housing bubble. He is such a moron because he is the only one that accurately represents the constitution and stands by it. He is such a moron because he is the only one that actually returns money to the government instead of finding useless & wasteful crap to spend it on.
What a moron, what we need is a committed Keynesian, crook and liar to keep running us into debt and poverty. Yeah that's the ticket.
Everyone predicted a housing bubble. Even USA today.
Few predicted the nature of the pop. All of this is way over his head.
RP considered the last 70 years of wage growth a bubble too. He is an idiot.
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Lyken-P
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Lyken-P posted:
I think the Government should just stop picking the losers.
That is the idea behind lowering the rate overall but the losers are really just picked by what is being subsidized by foreign nations.
Well then... there you go. Let foreign companies and governments do all the work in that case and we can just buy from them. Which is pretty much what's been happening. If we let them do all the work the US doesn't have to waste millions of dollars on the "losers".
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Aerlinthian
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Everyone predicted a housing bubble.
Everyone?  http://youtu.be/9QpD64GUoXw
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Few predicted the nature of the pop. All of this is way over his head.
You could not be more hopelessly wrong. He called it long before others and he named the exact reasons why it would occur. http://youtu.be/A5nGCpzel6o
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Brother_Tempus
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
[quote=Darlington] Everyone predicted a housing bubble
Back in 2002 like Dr. Paul did? Not really
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Rosaria
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The gov't should stop picking winners and losers because they're notoriously bad at it.
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Aerlinthian
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Rosaria posted:
The gov't should stop picking winners and losers because they're notoriously bad at it.
Even if the government was good at it, they would still be bankrupt ethically, morally and legally for picking anyone. That game just needs to end [period]
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theredkay1
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Aerlinthian posted:
Ron Paul posted:
INFLATION! OMG!!!
He is never wrong! 
Ron Paul is the blind squirrel. The primary way the Fed fights recessions is with interest rates. The biggest economic sector impacted by interest rate moves is housing and construction. So in 2001 he is outraged that the Fed is lessening the recession by boosting housing. RP is outraged that the Fed didnt sit idly by and cheer on the recession as it dragged the economy down in 2000.....and strangely he did not applaud the Fed for following his advice in 2007/08 by sitting on its hands while the economy fell off a cliff.
The Central Bank closely following the Ron Paul plan is the Euro Central bank....raising rates to protect against inflation, absolutely refusing to use currency rates to boost production...and they are getting the crushing recession that Ron Paul wants and the US was largely able to avoid.
I dont have any desire for the constant economic destruction Ron Paul feels we all deserve. The economy and our workers dont need to suffer for the imaginary sins in Ron Pauls head. His gold standard and the resulting massive deflation during the economic downturn would have been catastrophic economically. We should all be glad we didnt have to suffer like Ron Paul wanted us to.
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Aerlinthian
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Your Keynesian pablum has been proven wrong multiple times going all the way back to 1920.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czcUmnsprQI - Tom Woods Why You've Never Heard of the Great Depression of 1920
http://www.mmisi.org/ir/44_02/woods.pdf
1920: The Great Depression That Wasn't
http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2010/09/22/1920_the_great_depression_that_wasnt_98679.html
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx
Also, Japan has been in an economic malaise for twenty years due to Keynesian economics. But I know why you people are so committed to Keynesian economics. It is because it gives you command & control that enables big government and because you people love your precious wars. Without Keynesian economics you would have neither of those to the staggering degree that you have them now.
The Paul Krugmans of the world are statists and murderers.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Aerlinthian posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Everyone predicted a housing bubble.
Everyone? http://youtu.be/9QpD64GUoXw
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Few predicted the nature of the pop. All of this is way over his head.
You could not be more hopelessly wrong. He called it long before others and he named the exact reasons why it would occur. http://youtu.be/A5nGCpzel6o
The Fed’s inability to account for the housing bubble was a major fault of theirs but I don’t base that on quotes from Ben.
Your links did demonstrate that there was a lot of people saying there was a bubble which is exactly my point. The fact that investors will ride an upswing is nothing new and it really isn’t the job of the Fed to tell people that they are making bad decisions, even if they ask.
The real problem with the crash has more to do with large and sudden capital flows and failures made at the ratings agencies. Investors will invest based on risk factors so if you have a government regulation that results in high risk loans the market will still limit it’s investment into those financial instruments. What happened in the crash that really caused problems was the failure of rating’s agencies to calculate risk. The rating of debt instruments literally went from AAA to junk over night. Not only did that happen but the debt instruments in question were just a mix of risk factors which made it impossible to rate.
The guilty parties realized they were screwed so they took out insurance. This is where AIG enters the equation and gets reamed.
Fannie and Freddie played their part in all of this but it wasn’t in pushing high risk loans but their role in packaging them together and trying to establish them as lower risk than they were.
All of this was combined with investors that really have no reason to be holding US dollars other than the fact they are manipulating our currency in an attempt to increase production in their country.
Ron Paul’s understanding of all of this begins and ends at “ZOMG government.â€
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Sin_of_Onin
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Aerlinthian posted:
Your Keynesian pablum has been proven wrong multiple times going all the way back to 1920.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czcUmnsprQI - Tom Woods Why You've Never Heard of the Great Depression of 1920
http://www.mmisi.org/ir/44_02/woods.pdf
1920: The Great Depression That Wasn't
http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2010/09/22/1920_the_great_depression_that_wasnt_98679.html
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx
Also, Japan has been in an economic malaise for twenty years due to Keynesian economics. But I know why you people are so committed to Keynesian economics. It is because it gives you command & control that enables big government and because you people love your precious wars. Without Keynesian economics you would have neither of those to the staggering degree that you have them now.
The Paul Krugmans of the world are statists and murderers.
Ohh look a bunch of so called economists using very specific ways to measure the severity of a recession in an attempt to over state it while completely ignoring what actually caused the price change and the recovery.
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vn_nnanji
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
This is also a major issue at the state and local level where states are willing to give away money to corporations in a desperate attempt to increase employment.
How would you suggest states attract new businesses without offering incentives? It's a tad more than increasing employment and it's a necessary thing for states to do.
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Sin_of_Onin
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vn_nnanji posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
This is also a major issue at the state and local level where states are willing to give away money to corporations in a desperate attempt to increase employment.
How would you suggest states attract new businesses without offering incentives? It's a tad more than increasing employment and it's a necessary thing for states to do.
What makes it necessary is other states doing it.
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Ashmaele
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Aerlinthian posted:
The Austrian School is the only valid school of economic thought. Need proof? HERE ARE A BUNCH OF AUSTRIAN SCHOOL MONGOLOIDS SAYING SO!
I think all the Mises nuthuggers should all go live together, preferably in Austria, preferably in a part of Austria that has no Internet access.
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Aerlinthian
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Sin, you're blaming the symptoms and not the causes. Dr Paul long before the others called out the causes and pointed out the symptoms. That is just the historical facts that can't be twisted or explained away no matter how much you try. And that is why the more people who actually take the time to look at his history and track record are won over. The facts speak for themselves.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Aerlinthian posted:
Sin, you're blaming the symptoms and not the causes. Dr Paul long before the others called out the causes and pointed out the symptoms. That is just the historical facts that can't be twisted or explained away no matter how much you try. And that is why the more people who actually take the time to look at his history and track record are won over. The facts speak for themselves.
He failed to understand the cause or really anything beyond the superficial understanding of the issue which even USA today could pick up on.
The facts are that he thinks the growth from 1940s on is just a big bubble.
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Yukishiro1
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
vn_nnanji posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
This is also a major issue at the state and local level where states are willing to give away money to corporations in a desperate attempt to increase employment.
How would you suggest states attract new businesses without offering incentives? It's a tad more than increasing employment and it's a necessary thing for states to do.
What makes it necessary is other states doing it.
No kidding. It's exactly the same as "we need to cut taxes on rich people or they'll go somewhere else that cuts taxes on rich people!"
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Aerlinthian
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Yukishiro1 posted:
No kidding. It's exactly the same as "we need to cut taxes on rich people or they'll go somewhere else that cuts taxes on rich people!"
Which is exactly what is happening.
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theredkay1
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Aerlinthian posted:
Your Keynesian pablum has been proven wrong multiple times going all the way back to 1920.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czcUmnsprQI - Tom Woods Why You've Never Heard of the Great Depression of 1920
http://www.mmisi.org/ir/44_02/woods.pdf
1920: The Great Depression That Wasn't
http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2010/09/22/1920_the_great_depression_that_wasnt_98679.html
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx
I dont know what you think the 1920 recession proves. One of the articles says it was a time when the government just sat on its heels and let the market work itself out and we came roaring out of a recession. This is a total misdirection. One article specifically says the Fed did nothing and the economy started to recover in August 1921...but the Fed cut interest rates in May of 1921.
In 1919 gov't started slashing spending since the war was over. Lots of soldiers came back into the economy. The Fed almost doubled interest rates. Govt slashes spending + fed jacks up interest rates + deflation coming off of wartime prices = recession. By the beginning of 1922 the Fed had greatly lowered the interest rate...and the economy was moving forward again.
Are you unaware that the Fed existed at that time?
You have given us an example of the government slashing spending followed by a recession...and the Fed slashing interest rates followed by a boom. I dont think its supposed to work this way according to you...is it? This is not a good example for you.
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Aerlinthian
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Oh misdirection? Cite the exact passages and article.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Aerlinthian posted:
Oh misdirection?
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Modeeb
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There is much ugliness we must come face to face with. I am skeptical. Do your best with the days you have. Let all of the macroeconomics go. We have little input.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Modeeb posted:
There is much ugliness we must come face to face with. I am skeptical. Do your best with the days you have. Let all of the macroeconomics go. We have little input.
I assume you can appreciate the act of thinking things through for their own sake.
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Yukishiro1
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Aerlinthian posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
No kidding. It's exactly the same as "we need to cut taxes on rich people or they'll go somewhere else that cuts taxes on rich people!"
Which is exactly what is happening.
Uh that article is about raising fees for renouncing your citizenship. If rich people are renouncing their citizenship I really doubt a $450 fee is going to make them have second thoughts.
You are like a caricature of a stupid person.
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Modeeb
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SoO, I find macro-conceptualizing to be a natural gift. I'm just giving input from one a different perspective. Of course, it is important to hypothesize about what benefits we can bright the world, whether it is by making public policy or just being a good-hearted person. I meant no criticism.
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theredkay1
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Aerlinthian posted:
Oh misdirection? Cite the exact passages and article.
They are your articles, you should read them.
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Aerlinthian
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theredkay1 posted:
Aerlinthian posted:
Oh misdirection? Cite the exact passages and article.
They are your articles, you should read them.
Why won't you do as asked? Trying to conceal something? Maybe some context or sequence...?
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vn_nnanji
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
vn_nnanji posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
This is also a major issue at the state and local level where states are willing to give away money to corporations in a desperate attempt to increase employment.
How would you suggest states attract new businesses without offering incentives? It's a tad more than increasing employment and it's a necessary thing for states to do.
What makes it necessary is other states doing it.
So you don't believe in competition and free enterprise? This is a simple fact of business and life and is just as true during fat times as lean. What makes it necessary is reality. What do you think states should do, flip a coin? It's natural for states to work to entice businesses to set up shop there.
I'm still waiting to find out what the problem is. So far you've simply noted simple economic realities as if they are some symptom of a greater issue, which indeed they might be, but so far removed from what you are talking about I'm having trouble seeing the problem as it relates to states courting businesses. What the hell else are they supposed to do? Hope and pray?
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Yukishiro1
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The problem is that it's a race to the bottom. It creates no value. Tax policy that distorts where it makes sense to have your company located does no one any long-term favors. It is even worse than a zero-sum game because it actually ends up costing everyone because of reduced efficiency.
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vn_nnanji posted:
So you don't believe in competition and free enterprise?
How did you get that from what I said?
Government picking winners and losers is not free enterprise by definition.
Your post makes zero sense.
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theredkay1
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theredkay1 posted:
Aerlinthian posted:
Your Keynesian pablum has been proven wrong multiple times going all the way back to 1920.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czcUmnsprQI - Tom Woods Why You've Never Heard of the Great Depression of 1920
http://www.mmisi.org/ir/44_02/woods.pdf
1920: The Great Depression That Wasn't
http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2010/09/22/1920_the_great_depression_that_wasnt_98679.html
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx
I dont know what you think the 1920 recession proves. One of the articles says it was a time when the government just sat on its heels and let the market work itself out and we came roaring out of a recession. Aerlinthian posted:
1920: The Great Depression That Wasn't
http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2010/09/22/1920_the_great_depression_that_wasnt_98679.html
This is a total misdirection. One article specifically says the Fed did nothing and the economy started to recover in August 1921...but the Fed cut interest rates in May of 1921.
Aerlinthian posted:
http://www.mmisi.org/ir/44_02/woods.pdf
Aerlinthian posted:
Speaking of misdirections.....HEY LOOK OVER THERE!
read your articles
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Yep, just as I expected. You're projecting.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Aerlinthian posted:
Yep, just as I expected. You would think brining up the 1920s in this thread would be misdirection.
You are not only misdirecting you are blatantly wrong.
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Yes I'm wrong because the $15 trillion dollar debt, one trillion deficit and a dozen different forms of stimulus have all been fantastically effective at getting us back on track.
/sarcasm
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Aerlinthian posted:
Yes I'm wrong because the $15 trillion dollar debt, one trillion deficit and a dozen different forms of stimulus have all been fantastically effective at getting us back on track.
/sarcasm
Now you are wrong and off topic.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Aerlinthian posted:
Yes I'm wrong because the $15 trillion dollar debt, one trillion deficit and a dozen different forms of stimulus have all been fantastically effective at getting us back on track.
Now you are wrong and off topic.
Wait, what? So now I'm wrong? 
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Now you are wrong, off topic, and probably retarded.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Now you are wrong, off topic, fail at reading comprehension and probably retarded.
Fixed for a specific that deserved to be pointed out. 
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
vn_nnanji posted:
So you don't believe in competition and free enterprise?
How did you get that from what I said?
Government picking winners and losers is not free enterprise by definition.
Your post makes zero sense.
Obviously I am talking about how and why states encourage businesses to locate there. You said that was a problem and are yet to explain why. The Government doesn't pick anything with regards to this topic. You seem to think there is a relation but are unable to articulate it. Competition and free enterprise are why states vie for businesses to locate in their state. Rain or shine this is true. What does that have to do with the original topic? Don't know, don't care. I'm asking you to back up what you said. I see them as two separate subjects and you as someone who blurted out something rather unrelated and unsupportable.
States working to attract businesses is a naturally occurring economic phenomenon. You say it's a problem. I've simply asked you why. So far your response is that states do it because other states do it. That is not an answer. It's a restatement of what you see as a problem. Since it's actually a function of competition and free enterprise I asked you what issues you had with competition and free enterprise.
What part of why is it a problem don't you understand? While you are at it please let me know how States should attract business if not through taxes and other incentives.
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By being an attractive location for a business for reasons besides giving them a bunch of money?
You know, things like being in the right location or having a skilled workforce?
Using tax policy to distort the market to lure businesses hurts everyone in the long run. You end up with businesses in places they shouldn't be and you lose efficiency as a result.
It is a classic collective action problem. Each individual state or city thinks they can benefit individually but if they all do it everyone gets screwed.
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It always is those things, a combination of factors. It always has been. Tax relief has and always will be one of those factors. You are still restating the same things and not telling me what the problem is. Why does it "distort" the market?
How the fark do you think Research Triangle Park got formed? Or the Boston Biotech corridor? You think those are a problem for those states? Who got hurt and how? 
We are talking about an open market. States are free to do what they please. You don't see CA offering as much as other states and they are losing businesses. It's simply math and thss is a naturally occuring economic phenomenon, bull or bear. If you want to talk companies setting up elsewhere to avoid US taxes that is one thing but the idea that states shouldn't court businesses with tax breaks is just stupid.
Particularly since you have no solution to this thing you seem to think is a problem.
I don't think you and SoO know what what you are talking about. Hell, you can't even articulate it so in fact you're not talking about it. You're talking around it.
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You're just ignoring it. I've said it twice now. The problem is it ends up hurting everyone in the long run. If a company moves somewehre for tax purposes that means it wouldn't be there otherwise. There's an efficiency loss associated with the move.
It's like having a forest. Each person thinks if they chop down one tree it'll benefit them but when everyone does it you don't have a forest any more and everybody loses.
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You are going to have to do better than that. You're basically saying that free enterprise is the problem.
Please tell me how we all lost when RTP was formed in NC. This was an area that they granted special incentives and it was very successful. Who lost again? Georgia, because they didn't get the business? What are suggesting, that govt step in and level the field?
How ironic. 
I'm not ignoring it. You're not really saying anything. "We all lose" is not a reason. It's an observation. In fact it's an opinion.
An unsupportable one.
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You are seriously so far off the mark I'm not sure we can really have a discussion. The idea it is anti-free enterprise to point out how tax policy skews incentives and ends up hurting efficiency is just laughable. It's like you turned into the Fisted Puma and are living in your own 180 degree world. Your comment about the government "stepping in" and "leveling the field" is truly hillarious and shows you have no clue what you're talking about. The government is stepping in when it bribes people to move stuff one place or another.
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vn_nnanji posted:
Obviously I am talking about how and why states encourage businesses to locate there. You said that was a problem and are yet to explain why. The Government doesn't pick anything with regards to this topic. You seem to think there is a relation but are unable to articulate it. Competition and free enterprise are why states vie for businesses to locate in their state. Rain or shine this is true. What does that have to do with the original topic? Don't know, don't care. I'm asking you to back up what you said. I see them as two separate subjects and you as someone who blurted out something rather unrelated and unsupportable.
States working to attract businesses is a naturally occurring economic phenomenon. You say it's a problem. I've simply asked you why. So far your response is that states do it because other states do it. That is not an answer. It's a restatement of what you see as a problem. Since it's actually a function of competition and free enterprise I asked you what issues you had with competition and free enterprise.
What part of why is it a problem don't you understand? While you are at it please let me know how States should attract business if not through taxes and other incentives.
Two major reasons, 1) market manipulation by government results in inefficiencies and 2) the practice erodes the state's taxation authority shifting the burden onto other people and entities. I thought that was obvious.
Just to be clear I think there is room in this conversation for things like infrastructure which is the role of the state. In this age infrastructure does include education.
There is also a difference between the federal government and the state government doing something. I would say the primary issue at the state level is whether or not the states are simply competing with other states which results in little to no net benefit to the country.
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It is obvious. It's also not a problem, at least not an unnatural one.
What part of free enterprise do you fail to grasp? There are always competing priorities and a quest for balance. You can't have it all.
As far as market manipulation you're in left field there. That is utterly irrelevent to this topic. Letting the market decide is how the system works, and without federal interference the states are left to craft their own and compete for new businesses. How is that market manipulation? It's not, other than on the lowest semantic level. Manipulation infers some controlling unified force, not casual (rather than causal) relation.
Sure the state takes in less taxes. But it gets a new business that wasn't paying taxes before it started operations. It gets jobs. It gets commerce, associated trade and businesses.
I would have thought THAT was obvious.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you had a legitimate claim that made sense. I sometimes forget that for all your eloquence you are really rather simple at heart.
The thing you are complaining about is not a problem for "all of us." I live in CA, you think I don't know how business environment can hurt a state? Everything is a trade off. Let me guess, you also complain about losing jobs overseas while thinking US states should not have to work to attract businesses.
I've done research on new plants. The incentive packages are large and complex and usually involve tax incentives with an expiration date. People do ROI calcs. These things pay for themselves. RTP in NC as an example. That is way into the positive column at this point.
You're right though, your point is simplistic enough. It's also one sided and irrelevant to the overall discussion. States have always done this. It's yet another facet of a free market economy. This is not a problem, it's an economic reality.
US companies going overseas is a problem I will grant you but what do we do there? Telling the states not to use tax incentives is not going to help. State Commerce Benefit programs are not the problem.
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So an appeal to what is "natural" then tradition and then to top it all of a claim that government creating incentives is "free enterprise."
I agree with only one point and that is that the US needs to consider global implications but that argument suggests that incentives are done at the Federal level not at the state level.
Even at the Federal level there are serious issues that come about that result in inefficiencies and an erosion of taxation authority.
Inefficiencies include things like corruption or the government investing taxpayer money into bad investments or propping up less efficient businesses at the cost of more efficient ones.
The erosion of tax authority should be straight forward even for you.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
So an appeal to what is "natural" then tradition and then to top it all of a claim that government creating incentives is "free enterprise."
I never said anything about tradition, it's natural for states to want to attract businesses. This is a normal and expected aspect of a free economy and our state system.
Now tell me what part of states openly competing for businesses actually is free enterprise don't you get? You say "The Govt" like Brother Tempus, like it's all one big brother. Each state is a separate entity vying to attract businesses with whatever resources they have available. That is free enterprise, is it not?
And by making concessions they gain by attracting said businesses who bring commerce, jobs and new tax revenue.
Anything else WOULD be government interference. You're throwing the flag in the wrong place. What's happening now is the natural progression of a free market. Changing that would be interfering.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
You are seriously so far off the mark I'm not sure we can really have a discussion. The idea it is anti-free enterprise to point out how tax policy skews incentives and ends up hurting efficiency is just laughable. It's like you turned into the Fisted Puma and are living in your own 180 degree world. Your comment about the government "stepping in" and "leveling the field" is truly hillarious and shows you have no clue what you're talking about. The government is stepping in when it bribes people to move stuff one place or another.
No. You are confusing state govt as one solid entity and not realizing that every state has always had it's commerce board and that it has always been something states do to create an attractive environment for business. Your inability to separate your dislike for govt means you fail to understand this is natural economic behavior for a company or a state.
States have always done this. Why have they done this? Because encouraging business is smart.
Usually so are you. Here, not so much.
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vn_nnanji posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
So an appeal to what is "natural" then tradition and then to top it all of a claim that government creating incentives is "free enterprise."
I never said anything about tradition, it's natural for states to want to attract businesses. This is a normal and expected aspect of a free economy and our state system.
Now tell me what part of states openly competing for businesses actually is free enterprise don't you get? You say "The Govt" like Brother Tempus, like it's all one big brother. Each state is a separate entity vying to attract businesses with whatever resources they have available. That is free enterprise, is it not?
And by making concessions they gain by attracting said businesses who bring commerce, jobs and new tax revenue.
Anything else WOULD be government interference. You're throwing the flag in the wrong place. What's happening now is the natural progression of a free market. Changing that would be interfering.
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Well maybe you can explain how you lose tax revenue by adding a new business to your state or region. 
Or explain precisely what the state and local governments are "interfering" with by encouraging business growth.
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vn_nnanji posted:
Well maybe you can explain how you lose tax revenue by adding a new business to your state or region.
Or explain precisely what the state and local governments are "interfering" with by encouraging business growth.
If the business is moving from another state or would have located in a state anyway then it doesn't actually help the country. In the end the states just end up taking from one another which results in no gain to the country.
The calculations done at the state level don't take this into account.
The governments are interfering by treating them differently. In many cases it is a flat out subsidy.
The issue at hand is not encouraging growth by lowering taxes. The issue is selectively choosing businesses to support with tax breaks and other benefits. This process has become very competitive to the point that it has become detrimental. Like I said earlier I am all for infrastructure improvements and broad based support.
For example a company is looking to open up a new corporate headquarters in the NY metropolitan area. They go to NY, NJ, and CT and look for the best deal. This puts all three states on a race to the bottom. The state ends up subsidizing this business arbitrarily and there is large economic incentives for them to do so. Over time each state will increase their benefits to extreme degrees distorting markets and undermining their tax authority. Not to mention inviting corruption.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
The issue at hand is not encouraging growth by lowering taxes.
Yes it is. That's why states do that. It's a natural process in a free market. The fact that the pie might be smaller right now doesn't change this. You are doing one of two things; whining without a solution (or even a coherent problem statement) or calling for the government to step in and stop states from participating in the natural competition of attracting businesses.
In most cases, if not all, states are not favoring one corporation for another for anything other than economic reasons.
Which...repeat after me....is a natural phenomenon in a free market economy.
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You just repeated your appeal to it being "natural"
That is an illogical argument.
I am not denying that they have an economic incentive but that incentive only really works in isolation and even if it did work for a state it doesn't work for the nation.
The idea that it is somehow part of the free market is comically stupid. Your entire attempt at making an argument is full of fail but you do seem to be trying which I give you credit for. You are hardly the only person to fall for this train of thought and states are put in a tough spot. They are screwed if they play the game but they are more screwed if they don't. The only solution is to stop the game from being played.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
The only solution is to stop the game from being played.
In other words Government intervention.
You're an imbecile.
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vn_nnanji posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
The only solution is to stop the game from being played.
In other words Government intervention.
You're an imbecile.
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You're complaining about simple reality and claiming that States attracting business is the "Govt picking winners and losers" and you're not sure if I am serious?
Regardless of your original point (whatever the hell it was) your attempt to lump normal state business practice in with it is ignorant and shows you have no understanding of the process you are whining about. Perhaps you can explain how they are going to "stop the game being played" without Govt interference?
I'm all ears.
In fact you still haven't really addressed your brilliant notion that having a new company open it's doors in your region results in a loss of tax revenues. I sure would like to see the math on that.
It is a function of state and local govt to work with businesses and the Chambers of Commerce to attract businesses and improve the economy of the region. This is something they are SUPPOSED to do. Yes, in some cases one state wins and another loses. CA has been losing big time, but it's still a natural process. If CA was willing she would adjust to be more attractive, as she did when all the businesses came here in the first place. It's all about free market and competing priorities.
This is what's called competition and free enterprise and it's how our system works. You are pointing to a necessary and fundamental function of state and local government and claiming it is "interference" that should stop. You don't say how it could stop, since to do so would be to admit that in your scenario it would require federal (most likely, maybe some state) govt regulation of state incentives to stop something that occurs naturally in a competitive market.
You've talked yourself into a corner.
And no, I don't expect you to be man enough to admit it.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Whatever you say fisted badger.
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vn_nnanji
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You always end up taking the cowards way out don't you?
vn_nnanji posted:
And no, I don't expect you to be man enough to admit it.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Badger I would be happy to educate you on all the ways you are wrong if I thought you were capable of listening. You are not. You have already demonstrated your block headed thinking in this thread.
Your ignorance makes this conversation impossible to have.
Mercantilist practices are not an example of free enterprise. They are literally polar opposites and you keep equating them which is then topped off with you equating what amounts to free trade agreements to government market manipulation.
You are living in a 180 degree world.
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vn_nnanji
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So attracting commerce is NOT a function of local and state Govt?
You aren't going to explain because there's nothing to defend your poorly thought out argument. You haven't been able to defend one point, from the inane idea that adding a new business decreases tax revenue to the ridiculous contention that local govt is interfering in commerce by performing one of it's necessary functions. You claim that it's a problem and that "we all lose", for some nebulous reason that you can't fully articulate and then say nothing about how we should stop this horrible practice when confronted with the obvious, that it is something that would only change if the govt itself worked to stop it.
180 degrees indeed.
I tried to have an actual discussion with you. I forgot that despite your verbosity you really don't have much to say.
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m509
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
A race between Romney and Obama gives me little hope that we will move away from this model.
More accurately, a race between ANYONE in our current system of campaign funding should give you little hope of anything other than continued corporate welfare.
Right now, the only way to win a national campaign is with massive corporate funding. The rest should really be too elementary for debate.
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Sin_of_Onin
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vn_nnanji posted:
So attracting commerce is NOT a function of local and state Govt?
You aren't going to explain because there's nothing to defend your poorly thought out argument. You haven't been able to defend one point, from the inane idea that adding a new business decreases tax revenue to the ridiculous contention that local govt is interfering in commerce by performing one of it's necessary functions. You claim that it's a problem and that "we all lose", for some nebulous reason that you can't fully articulate and then say nothing about how we should stop this horrible practice when confronted with the obvious, that it is something that would only change if the govt itself worked to stop it.
180 degrees indeed.
I tried to have an actual discussion with you. I forgot that despite your verbosity you really don't have much to say.
The argument is basically as old as the study of economics and you have failed to even begin to grasp what is being talked about even after multiple people have tried to explain it to you.
Enjoy your ignorance.
BTW something is not nebulus just because you don't understand it.
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vn_nnanji
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You've utterly failed to connect states vying for business growth to your original whine. Mercantilism? What part of businesses have a right to choose where they go don't you get?
I've worked with three states to locate 2 chemical plants and 1 distribution center. I am intimately familiar with the subject. Unlike you.
Despite your BS bravado you've been your usual mealy mouthed self, avoiding every straight question I put before you.
I'll state it a third time, please outline your plan for "stopping the game" without Govt involvement.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Start here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations
or live in your delusions, whatever.
The subsidization of business by government has replaced the tariff system as an accpeted way for governments to practice a form of mercantilism. When you don't understand what mercantilism is then you won't understand what people are talking about when they talk about free markets, free trade, and government intervention. You are a confused little idiot and your bravado only makes it all the more pathetic.
Your question has been ignored because it is stupid. If two governments agree to a free trade deal that is not an example of government intervention the distorts economies. Obviously governments are involved and they are intervening but you have completely lost site of why government intervention is considered bad in the first place. Which is basically the first economic debate.
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F is for Fake-believe
"We apologise for the inconvenience" --God
"What Jesus fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem"--Reg
Run, Forrest! Run!
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