Urk_VN
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Black Muslim with concealed carry stops a thief from robbing local grocery store
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http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/aldi-customer-wont-be-charged-in-shooting-sk42et0-138688529.html
Cliffnotes version:
Hero guy was shopping at Aldi in Milwaukee was waiting in line to check out when a thug enters the store and held up the clerk with a sawed-off shotgun. Hero guy pulls his handgun out, thug points shotgun at him, hero guy fires 7 shots at thug, hits him 2x, once in the leg, another in the forehead. Thug drops gun/money, runs out, gets arrested later. Shotgun later turns out to be completely empty, and thug had robbed 2 other places prior to this one.
The store supposedly had a sign that said "no concealed weapons" in it, but it wasn't in a visible area, or else the hero guy wouldn't of shopped there (his words).
Wisconsin also just recently passed a concealed-carry law, and hero guy was licensed to carry one.
Also, the hero guy wasn't a white, gun-toting redneck, he was a black Muslim (who had some criminal activity in his earlier years but since shaped up).
DA won't press charges on him despite the store having the hard-to-find "no concealed carry" sign in front. Store likely won't either (I mean come on, dude stopped a crook, who could've easily killed lots of other people).
-------------------
So, what's your opinion? Is the guy a hero, or is he just a gun nut who was endangering the safety of everyone by firing at a crook and stopping a potentially worse situation? The comments are pretty interesting to read, and sounds a lot like what you all have said, both pro and con. And it's funny how the anti-gun people don't mention the crook ignoring the sign as well, and not saying anything about if he had shells and fired it on innocent people.
"Criminals love gun control laws; it makes their job easier." - Not sure who said it, but it makes sense, especially here. Wonder how this would've turned out had hero guy not of had a gun on him at the time...
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Yukishiro1
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Black Muslim with concealed carry stops a thief from robbing local grocery store
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Turned out well but easily could have turned out very badly.
On the other hand, there was no way to know the guy wasn't really armed, and with an armed guy during a robbery things could turn out badly the other way too.
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Tych2
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Why does it matter if he was a black mulsim?
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reesescups
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Black Muslim with concealed carry stops a thief from robbing local grocery store
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Randomly good outcomes confuse the piss out of me...
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IMHO
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Black Muslim with concealed carry stops a thief from robbing local grocery store
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Urk_VN posted:
hero guy fires 7 shots at thug, hits him 2x, once in the leg, another in the forehead. Thug drops gun/money, runs out
Wut?
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Bonzoboy1
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So the Readers Digest version of this is that guns are good?
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Z-Elder
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IMHO posted:
Urk_VN posted:
hero guy fires 7 shots at thug, hits him 2x, once in the leg, another in the forehead. Thug drops gun/money, runs out
Wut?
Hehe Noob thugs the lot of them!
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Yukishiro1
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reesescups posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Randomly good outcomes confuse the piss out of me...
wut?
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Friarspam
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Black Muslim with concealed carry stops a thief from robbing local grocery store
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IMHO posted:
Urk_VN posted:
hero guy fires 7 shots at thug, hits him 2x, once in the leg, another in the forehead. Thug drops gun/money, runs out
Wut?
It's like that Rutger Hauer movie where he's a cop in London chasing some monster. "We're going to need bigger f'n guns"
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Huges07.1
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Black Muslim with concealed carry stops a thief from robbing local grocery store
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reesescups posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Randomly good outcomes confuse the piss out of me...
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Huges07.1
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I'll take the Muslim fella fighting crime over the Muslim fella allah ahhkhbaring the place sky high any day of the week. Hopefully he can start a new trend and the Muslims of the world can turn over a new leaf.
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RHWarrior
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This is elegant solid proof against anti-gun policies.
Now all laws, regulations and restrictions when it comes to guns must be removed.
Everyone should carry what they want, when they want, with how much ammo they want.
Let God sort sort things out I say next time a bad guy pulls out a piece.
/face_cowboy
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Huges07.1
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Black Muslim with concealed carry stops a thief from robbing local grocery store
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Urk_VN posted:
The store supposedly had a sign that said "no concealed weapons" in it, but it wasn't in a visible area, or else the hero guy wouldn't of shopped there (his words).
Wisconsin also just recently passed a concealed-carry law, and hero guy was licensed to carry one.
Also, the hero guy wasn't a white, gun-toting redneck, he was a black Muslim (who had some criminal activity in his earlier years but since shaped up).
DA won't press charges on him despite the store having the hard-to-find "no concealed carry" sign in front. Store likely won't either (I mean come on, dude stopped a crook, who could've easily killed lots of other people).
Who knows what will happen but my guess is that he will get treated better than this Marine: http://offgridsurvival.com/concealcarrypermitprisonnewyork/
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Moe_Nox
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Black Muslim with concealed carry stops a thief from robbing local grocery store
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I don't understand what the confusion is. He stopped the robbery, he was fully licensed and had his carry permits. He isn't going to be charged.
Its a good story with the desired outcome, but I am failing to see any cause for arglebargle.
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Huges07.1
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Filthy liberals must be absolutely livid with confusion over this and probably assploding in rainbow colors as they fight with the devastating reality of their heroes acting like their enemies. Like a race car in neutral, both feet standing on the gas until the engine seizes up and scatters nuts and gaskets in all directions.
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Moe_Nox
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If only they had the nuts to scatter, but then they wouldn't be liberals.
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Friarspam
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In reference to this thread
/working as intended!
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__Bonk__
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I'm just glad there are Muslim superheroes too!
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Kjarhall
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Tych2 posted:
Why does it matter if he was a black mulsim?
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NuEM
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Black Muslim with concealed carry stops a thief from robbing local grocery store
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Urk_VN posted:
hero guy fires 7 shots at thug
Why does it matter that he fires 7 shots?
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Akza
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Black Muslim with concealed carry stops a thief from robbing local grocery store
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Huges07.1 posted:
Filthy liberals must be absolutely livid with confusion over this and probably assploding in rainbow colors as they fight with the devastating reality of their heroes acting like their enemies. Like a race car in neutral, both feet standing on the gas until the engine seizes up and scatters nuts and gaskets in all directions.
i see this as a cool story bro. im in favor of ccp of handguns. i'm liberal.
get off the fox news channel sometime there buddy.
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eodoll
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Black Muslim with concealed carry stops a thief from robbing local grocery store
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Why s an ex con allowed a concealed carry.
Seems a bit extreme, death - for tryimg to steal a few bucks.
Im anti conceal carry esp if ex cons are allowed.
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sweeny_comodore
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so shooting people is OK when its a 15yo white kid with a pellet gun?
but its bad when its an armed robber with a shotgun?
hmmmm
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Aerlinthian
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ZartanAround
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Black Muslim with concealed carry stops a thief from robbing local grocery store
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Huges07.1 posted:
I'll take the Muslim fella fighting crime over the Muslim fella allah ahhkhbaring the place sky high any day of the week. Hopefully he can start a new trend and the Muslims of the world can turn over a new leaf.
i don't wanna get allah ahkbarred!
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Eager_Igraine
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I'm glad it turned out well, and I'm not terribly anti-firearms, but the cc guy sounds lucky the shotgun was unloaded. He missed five of seven shots and I don't know that the shotgun would have missed the first. If everyone was carrying, robberies might be less likely, but I expect general shoot outs would increase.
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eodoll
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If everyone were carrying, then there would be a lot more gun violence. All those times some body got enough road rage to get out of their car and start a fight would instead be gun fights.
There are a lot of unstable people out there.
I guess i'd be okay with it if bullets cost a few hundred dollars each, unfortunately they only cost pennies (or less) when people pack their own bullets.
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__Bonk__
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True if everyone had guns there would be more violence not less.
Gun control is needed
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Bonzoboy1
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__Bonk__ posted:
Gun control is needed
I agree, I should have guns you all should not.
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__Bonk__
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Outposters shouldnt be allowed to own guns or have children 
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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So the guy shoots 7 times and hits twice, and this is a good thing? I mean, good on him and all but thats 5 bullets that could have gone anywhere in a grocery store.
I'm glad I wasn't there.
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eodoll
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High adrenaline shooting situations are something you ahve to specifically train for. Most people miss even when up close whether or not they have any training at a shooting range.
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Aerlinthian
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Eager_Igraine posted:
If everyone was carrying, robberies might be less likely, but I expect general shoot outs would increase.
LINK posted:
An interview with John R. Lott, Jr. author of More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws.
Question: What does the title mean: More Guns, Less Crime?
John R. Lott, Jr.: States with the largest increases in gun ownership also have the largest drops in violent crimes. Thirty-one states now have such laws—called "shall-issue" laws. These laws allow adults the right to carry concealed handguns if they do not have a criminal record or a history of significant mental illness.
Question: It just seems to defy common sense that crimes likely to involve guns would be reduced by allowing more people to carry guns. How do you explain the results?
Lott: Criminals are deterred by higher penalties. Just as higher arrest and conviction rates deter crime, so does the risk that someone committing a crime will confront someone able to defend him or herself. There is a strong negative relationship between the number of law-abiding citizens with permits and the crime rate—as more people obtain permits there is a greater decline in violent crime rates. For each additional year that a concealed handgun law is in effect the murder rate declines by 3 percent, rape by 2 percent, and robberies by over 2 percent.
Concealed handgun laws reduce violent crime for two reasons. First, they reduce the number of attempted crimes because criminals are uncertain which potential victims can defend themselves. Second, victims who have guns are in a much better position to defend themselves.
Question: What is the basis for these numbers?
Lott: The analysis is based on data for all 3,054 counties in the United States during 18 years from 1977 to 1994.
Continued at above link.
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Fist_de_Yuma
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Good result. What I did not understand was what this religion and race had to do with anything.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Fist, the guy was a liberal.
/watches head explode
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__Bonk__
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LIES AND SLANDER!
GOOD DAY SIR! GOOD DAY!
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Fist_de_Yuma
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Fist, the guy was a liberal.
/watches head explode
So? It has as much to do with the story as his race and religion. Unless he was trying to take everyone's gun, as many liberals would, it is a moot point.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Obviously this guy was trying to take everyone's guns, he even shot someone in the forehead to get one.
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NuEM
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
Good result. What I did not understand was what this religion and race had to do with anything.
Nothing, until morons like you brought it up. Until then it was just two bits of irrelevant information among many other pieces of irrelevant information.
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Jorrdan
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Tych2 posted:
Why does it matter if he was a black mulsim?
Now you have to ask yourself....what if he were white???! 
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Eh.
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Cawlin
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Black Muslim with concealed carry stops a thief from robbing local grocery store
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Aerlinthian posted:
LINK posted:
An interview with John R. Lott, Jr. author of More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws.
Question: It just seems to defy common sense that crimes likely to involve guns would be reduced by allowing more people to carry guns. How do you explain the results?
Continued at above link.
This question right here is very telling and to me, is representative of the fundamental disconnect associated with the desire to disarm law-abiding Americans. The reporter's "logic" defied by the truth is not logic at all, and that person is so far down the rabbit hole that they actually, honestly don't understand that.
Those who favor disarming citizens believe that citizens are criminals. They are completely unable to even imagine that a citizen would do anything but suddenly become a rampaging murderer/rapist/robber. This inability to conceive of an otherwise law-abiding citizen as anything but a criminal waiting for a gun leads one to believe either a basic malfunction exists in the brains of those who think like this, or an admission of their own darkest desires.
I don't believe that there are that many people who actually are just a gun away from a life of crime, but I surely believe that there are that many people who lack the cognitive skills to separate the irrational fear and hype from the truth - hell, look at our elected politicians ffs.
The arguments from the Gun-Grabbersâ„¢ are disingenuous at their best, and the smear campaign has been in high gear for a few decades now. The foundations of their argument, the statistics of it, have been proven to be spurious and manufactured, almost out of thin air when they weren't purely intentionally misrepresented, but people still haven't gotten the message. Meanwhile day after day, the arguments of those who believe all Americans are criminals crumble a little bit more as evidence to the contrary mounts and comes to light.
Citizens being able to defend themselves leads to less crime, not more, period.
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We had a shooting this past week in our town. It had many witnesses that confirmed what happened to the police.
This old guy with a concealed wep permit goes across the street to ask this other guy if he could stop his dog from barking so much. Guy doesnt like this so much and runs down his sidewalk and immediately starts beating down this old guy. Witnesses confirm hes crying out for someone to help him and even when he falls do the ground from the beating hes begging the guy to stop and still yelling for help (obviously no one comes to help him). Finally he is able to reach his gun and plugs this guy 4 times, 3 in the chest 1 in the abd. The guy dies later in the hospital and old guy gets treated and released and most likely wont be charged with a crime due to Florida's Stand your ground law.
Justified?
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Very justified.
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We have people here bitching about it already.......he should have just covered up and waited for police......why didnt he just carry pepper spray or a tazer.......why didnt he just call the cops to begin with about the dog.
These people amaze me. What they should be asking is why some dumbass wants to get into a fight over being asked to quiet down his dog. Always want to blame it on the guy protecting himself and not the idiot criminal who deserved what he had coming to him. Incidentally the guy who got killed just got done serving jail time for murder.
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Moe_Nox
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People that heard the old man's cries for help and did nothing until giving a police report are prolly the people that cried the loudest about the use of a gun.
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Cawlin
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Moe_Nox posted:
People that heard the old man's cries for help and did nothing until giving a police report are prolly the people that cried the loudest about the use of a gun.
Remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away!
These so called "obligation to retreat" and the lack of "stand your ground" and "castle doctrine" laws in America are just another extension of the defective thought processes of those who think that all Americans are criminals. Thankfully, "stand your ground" and "castle doctrine" statutes are growing in frequency while "obligation to retreat" statutes are becoming less common which seems to indicate that the numbers of those who envision all Americans as criminals are on the decline, or at least, fewer Americans are listening to those fkn maniacs.
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Koneg
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Urk_VN posted:
So, what's your opinion? Is the guy a hero, or is he just a gun nut who was endangering the safety of everyone by firing at a crook and stopping a potentially worse situation? The comments are pretty interesting to read, and sounds a lot like what you all have said, both pro and con. And it's funny how the anti-gun people don't mention the crook ignoring the sign as well, and not saying anything about if he had shells and fired it on innocent people.
From the write-up he only engaged the bad guy when the bad guy pointed the weapon at him.
I have no idea what was going through his head of course, but he drew his weapon and kept it concealed by his side. That's probably what I would have done in his shoes - just get it ready, but don't do anything unless you don't have any choice. The vast majority of hold-ups are in-n-outs with nobody hurt... it was only when the robber turned and pointed the shotgun at him that he engaged, and it is at that moment that you no longer have a choice in whether or not you shoot, because you have no idea what's going through the bad guy's head.
Right decisions all the way down the line.
Now to address some of the stupidity here...
eodoll posted:
Why s an ex con allowed a concealed carry.
He was a juvenile offender, with no adult convictions. Reading Comprehension 101.
eodoll posted:
Seems a bit extreme, death - for tryimg to steal a few bucks.
Uhm, he didn't die. Remember that Reading Comprehension thing we talked about?
Regardless, he wasn't shot at for trying to steal a few bucks. He was shot at because he pointed a shotgun at someone who had a weapon of their own.
Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
So the guy shoots 7 times and hits twice, and this is a good thing?
High Stress, High Consequence shooting sees no better than 20% accuracy - even from highly trained police officers (ie, SWAT) Adrenaline is the most powerful drug known to man, and it really screws up your accuracy when the penny drops.
Hitting 2 out of 7 puts him at ~29%, which is better than the average.
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IMHO
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Grymlo posted:
We have people here bitching about it already.......he should have just covered up and waited for police......why didnt he just carry pepper spray or a tazer.......why didnt he just call the cops to begin with about the dog.
These people amaze me. What they should be asking is why some dumbass wants to get into a fight over being asked to quiet down his dog. Always want to blame it on the guy protecting himself and not the idiot criminal who deserved what he had coming to him. Incidentally the guy who got killed just got done serving jail time for murder.
People are idiots.
Here in Denver A guy shot and killed a home intruder and the friends of the intruder protested outside his house. They said he didn't have to kill him and that the intruder was a nice guy.
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eodoll
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What kind of whacko starts beating somene up for saying "your dog is barkng too much"?
The same knd of whacko that would go on a shooting rampage.
If guns were more accessible then there would be more people with them.
Im all for allowing people to hurt themselves by choice ( im pro legalizing drugs) but guns are a way to hurt and intimidate others not oneself.
Its only protective if youre the only one with it in in a gunfight.
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Koneg
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eodoll posted:
Why s an ex con allowed a concealed carry.
He was a juvenile offender, with no adult convictions. Reading Comprehension 101.
eodoll posted:
Seems a bit extreme, death - for tryimg to steal a few bucks.
Uhm, he didn't die. Remember that Reading Comprehension thing we talked about?
Regardless, he wasn't shot at for trying to steal a few bucks. He was shot at because he pointed a shotgun at someone who had a weapon of their own.
Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
So the guy shoots 7 times and hits twice, and this is a good thing?
High Stress, High Consequence shooting sees no better than 20% accuracy - even from highly trained police officers (ie, SWAT) Adrenaline is the most powerful drug known to man, and it really screws up your accuracy when the penny drops.
Hitting 2 out of 7 puts him at ~29%, which is better than the average.
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NuEM
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Moe_Nox posted:
Very justified.
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Tipztoe
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why would the DA press charges on him because he carried in a private store? I can put a sign in my front yards that says no cats. Doesn't mean I can arrest a neighbor if his cat walks in my yard.
It would be one thing if he carried in a Federal building or something.
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Tipztoe posted:
why would the DA press charges on him because he carried in a private store? I can put a sign in my front yards that says no cats. Doesn't mean I can arrest a neighbor if his cat walks in my yard.
Except that in almost all cases the No Guns Allowed sign carries the force of law. In most cases it only results in criminal trespass charges, but in some states it's serious enough it can cost you your carry permit.
Better safe than sorry, so I simply refuse to do business in places that post those signs.
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NuEM
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You should move to Europe. I've never seen even a single sign like that here. 
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Cawlin
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eodoll posted:
What kind of whacko starts beating somene up for saying "your dog is barkng too much"?
The same knd of whacko that would go on a shooting rampage.
If guns were more accessible then there would be more people with them.
Um, in the dog story, the guy who started beating on the old man was just out of prison for a murder. He would not have been able to legally obtain a firearm because of his conviction. If that guy wanted to get a gun, his only recourse would have been to get one illegally, on the black market, or steal one. How would making it harder for citizens to LEGALLY obtain a firearm have stopped that guy from ILLEGALLY obtaining a firearm?
eodoll posted:
Im all for allowing people to hurt themselves by choice ( im pro legalizing drugs) but guns are a way to hurt and intimidate others not oneself.
Its only protective if youre the only one with it in in a gunfight.
Your thinking is extremely parochial (and backwards) on this topic.
If a gun is only protective if your attacker doesn't have one, what is your protection when you don't have a gun? What is your protection if your attacker has one and you don't?
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Cawlin posted:
eodoll posted:
Its only protective if youre the only one with it in in a gunfight.
Your thinking is extremely parochial (and backwards) on this topic.
And let's not point out the obvious - that this entire thread began because someone with a gun defended themselves against someone else with a gun.
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We would be better off if no one had guns (in terms of public safety, not getting into military or hunting use). I don't buy into the crap from the pro-gun lobby that guns are actually good for public safety.
That said, we don't live in a world or country where "no guns" is a viable option. The best argument against gun control is that you just end up with only criminals having guns, not some abstract argument about how great guns are. They arn't.
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"In counties that allow concealed weapons violent crime dropped an average of 3% per year after concealed weapons were allowed"
clicky
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Your clicky is ridiculous and doesn't show what it says it shows. I don't know where your quote came from because I didn't see it there.
Crime has been going down in general by about 3% per year for a decade or two. Without knowing if they controlled for that the statistic says basically nothing.
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Koneg posted:
Tipztoe posted:
why would the DA press charges on him because he carried in a private store? I can put a sign in my front yards that says no cats. Doesn't mean I can arrest a neighbor if his cat walks in my yard.
Except that in almost all cases the No Guns Allowed sign carries the force of law. In most cases it only results in criminal trespass charges, but in some states it's serious enough it can cost you your carry permit.
Better safe than sorry, so I simply refuse to do business in places that post those signs.
How would they even know unless you drew your weapon? Also 1st offense should be a warning in most cases.
Anyway, I too would not patron such places, I just haven't seen any, even here in the communist state of MA.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
We would be better off if no one had guns (in terms of public safety, not getting into military or hunting use). I don't buy into the crap from the pro-gun lobby that guns are actually good for public safety.
as long as any type of gun exists anywhere as well as the black market, criminals will always have access.
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Tipztoe posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
We would be better off if no one had guns (in terms of public safety, not getting into military or hunting use). I don't buy into the crap from the pro-gun lobby that guns are actually good for public safety.
as long as any type of gun exists anywhere as well as the black market, criminals will always have access.
Yes and no. Getting a gun in Japan is really hard. Pretty much only organized crime has them, and even then only basic handguns.
But yes, in America it's unrealistic to think gun control is really going to work.
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There was a program started awhile back when Florida began allowing CCW permits. They wanted to find out the statistics of people with CCW permits committing murder as well as incidents of road rage shootings.
They ended up stopping the program after a few years because they had no cases to study. There were no incidents of people with CCW permits committing murder or any road rage shootings.
I been trying to find the link to it but I have been unsuccessful.
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DemonicXH posted:
There was a program started awhile back when Florida began allowing CCW permits. They wanted to find out the statistics of people with CCW permits committing murder as well as incidents of road rage shootings.
They ended up stopping the program after a few years because they had no cases to study. There were no incidents of people with CCW permits committing murder or any road rage shootings.
I been trying to find the link to it but I have been unsuccessful.
in most cases there's probably less incidents of road rage.. because reacting to the idiot that cut you off or what ever isn't worth losing your ccw license over, so you let it go.
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Moe_Nox posted:
"In counties that allow concealed weapons violent crime dropped an average of 3% per year after concealed weapons were allowed"
clicky
Violent crime has fallen by over 5% a year in the US in both 2009 and 2010.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/24crime.html
5%>3%
Do the math and this might not go the way you wanted it to go.
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"economics researcher John Lott's analysis of crime report data claims a statistically significant effect of concealed carry laws on crime, with more permissive concealed carry laws correlated with a decrease in overall crime. Lott studied FBI crime statistics from 1977 to 1993 and found that the passage of concealed carry laws resulted in a murder rate reduction of 8.5%, rape rate reduction of 5%, and aggravated assault reduction of 7%."
Better armed citizens have pushed back crime
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paper posted:
"crime tended to drop more in the nonadopting (concealed carry) states in
the 1990s than in adopting states"
"This puzzle was resolved when John Lott gave us the data that were
used for the response to our paper (recall that Lott was initially the lead author
of that response). We found that this dataset contained numerous coding errors,
which we describe below. Correcting these errors, which contaminated every
regression that was run for their response to our paper, had a profound effect on
their estimates and restored the conclusion that concealed-carry laws were
associated with increases in crime (or no effect) for all crime categories.
http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/Ayres_Donohue_comment.pdf
Keep trying!
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Why concealed carry? Why not carry itnout in the open?
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