Indiana Secretary of State Charlie White was convicted of six felonies early this morning, and consequently lost his job. But the Republican could get it back soon.
White, 42, Fishers, plans to ask a judge to reduce his convictions – all class D felonies – to misdemeanors at sentencing. It’s uncertain whether that move would allow him to reclaim his job.
“We don’t know the right answer to that,” White said. “This is all very new.”
Shortly after White’s verdict was read, Gov. Mitch Daniels announced in a news release shortly before 3 a.m. that he has appointed Jerry Bonnet, White’s chief deputy, as interim secretary of state.
“I have chosen not to make a permanent appointment today out of respect for the judge’s authority to lessen the verdict to a misdemeanor and reinstate the elected office holder,” the Republican governor said in the news release. “If the felony convictions are not altered, I anticipate making a permanent appointment quickly.”

Thugoneous posted:

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He should go to jail.

You should have to show your ID before voting.

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Thugoneous posted:

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He should go to jail.

You should have to show your ID before voting.

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Thugoneous posted:

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He should go to jail.

You should have to show your ID before voting.

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Thugoneous posted:

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He should go to jail.

You should have to show your ID before voting.

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Thugoneous posted:

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He should go to jail.

You should have to show your ID before voting.

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Groucho48 posted:

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Thugoneous posted:

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He should go to jail.

You should have to show your ID before voting.

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Why? Walk me through it. Here's how I see it...

I show up at the polling station.
I say I am Groucho48
They open the book to Groucho48 and I sign, right next to my registration signature
I vote

Now, say, Groucho49 decides to vote as me

He shows up at the pooling station
He says he is Groucho48 and the little old lady who has been watching me vote for 15 years says...oh no you are not and he is arrested on a felony charge

or

the book is opened and I've already voted and he is arrested for felony voter fraud

or

he isn't recognized and he signs and his signature doesn't match mine and he is arrested for felony voter fraud

or

he gets there first and votes. When I show up and try to vote, I am confronted and THEN I have to submit a provisional vote until I can prove who I am. Groucho49 gets away but no other harm done

or

he does succeed in voting and I don't vote that election and that is one successful voter fraud. Repeat that several hundred times in that precinct and you might actually be able to sway a local election. Until the other party discovers that voter turnout was exceptionally high, demands an investigation and the hundreds of fraudulent signatures are found.


Now, you go.

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Aerlinthian posted:

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In order to get welfare benefits, you have to prove who you are and depending on the state, submit to finger printing and a photo. They end up giving the person an ID card based on this process. Obviously the state doesn't charge to get this card.

In New York non driver ID fees are as follows:

Currently $9 to $10 for the 4 to 5 year ID
$13 to $14 for the 8 to 9 year ID
$6.50 for the 10 year ID issued to seniors over 62 and for those under 62 but receiving social security.


So spare me the tears that ID costs are prohibitive. And you don't need a national ID card which I would be adamantly opposed to anyway.

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Tych2 posted:

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Why work? We don't have to. We are going to win anyways.

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Groucho48 posted:

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Tych2 posted:

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Why work? We don't have to. We are going to win anyways.

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Another way of saying you have nothing.

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Groucho48 posted:

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And, while bills have passed in several Republican controlled states, they have failed in others. So, it isn't exactly an inevitable tide. It might become more so if you had any reality-based reason for the requirement.

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Groucho48 posted:

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He says he is Groucho48 and the little old lady who has been watching me vote for 15 years says...oh no you are not and he is arrested on a felony charge

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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:

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I'm only against it because elections should be free and fair.

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Aerlinthian posted:

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In New York non driver ID fees are as follows:

Currently $9 to $10 for the 4 to 5 year ID
$13 to $14 for the 8 to 9 year ID
$6.50 for the 10 year ID issued to seniors over 62 and for those under 62 but receiving social security.


So spare me the tears that ID costs are prohibitive.

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Groucho48 posted:

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Again. Convince me with reality.

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Groucho48 posted:

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Meanwhile, the true measure of Republican interest in voter fraud is in my OP.

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Tych2 posted:

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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:

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I'm only against it because elections should be free and fair.

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Make the cards free. I've always said that and that in turn makes it fair.

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Because voter fraud is essentially irrational, it is not surprising that no credible evidence suggests a voter fraud epidemic. There is no documented wave or trend of individuals voting multiple times, voting as someone else, or voting despite knowing that they are ineligible. Indeed, evidence from the microscopically scrutinized 2004 gubernatorial election in Washington State actually reveals just the opposite: though voter fraud does happen, it happens approximately 0.0009% of the time. The similarly closely-analyzed 2004 election in Ohio revealed a voter fraud rate of 0.00004%. National Weather Service data shows that Americans are struck and killed by lightning about as often.

Many vivid anecdotes of purported voter fraud have been proven false or do not demonstrate fraud. Although there are a few scattered instances of real voter fraud, many of the vivid anecdotes cited in accounts of voter fraud have been proven false or vastly overstated. In Missouri in 2000, for example, the Secretary of State claimed that 79 voters were registered with addresses at vacant lots, but subsequent investigation revealed that the lots in question actually housed valid and legitimate residences. Similarly, a 1995 investigation into votes allegedly cast in Baltimore by deceased voters and those with disenfranchising felony convictions revealed that the voters in question were both alive and felony-free.

Many of the inaccurate claims result from lists of voters compared to other lists - of deceased individuals, persons with felony convictions, voters in other states, etc. These attempts to match information often yield predictable errors. In Florida in 2000, a list of purged voters later became notorious when it was discovered that the “matching” process captured eligible voters with names similar to - but decidedly different from - the names of persons with felony convictions, sometimes in other states entirely. A 2005 attempt to identify supposed double voters in New Jersey mistakenly accused people with similar names but whose middle names or suffixes were clearly different, such as “J.T. Kearns, Jr.” and “J.T. Kearns, Sr.,” of being the same person. Even when names and birthdates match across lists, that does not mean there was voter fraud. Elementary statistics students are often surprised to learn that it is more likely than not that among just 23 individuals, two will share a birthday. Similar statistics show that for most reasonably common names, it is extremely likely that at least two people with the same name in a state will share the same date of birth. The ostensible “matches” may not represent the same person at all.

Other allegations of fraudulent voting often turn out to be the result of common clerical errors, incomplete information, or faulty assumptions. Most allegations of voter fraud simply evaporate when more rigorous analysis is conducted.

In Kansas, the secretary of state, Kris Kobach (who also wrote Arizona’s notorious anti-immigrant law), pushed for an ID law on the basis of a list of 221 reported instances of voter fraud in Kansas since 1997. Even if that were true, it would be an infinitesimal percentage of the votes cast during that period, but it is not true.

When The Wichita Eagle looked into the local cases on the list, the newspaper found that almost all were honest mistakes: a parent trying to vote for a student away at college, or signatures on mail-in ballots that didn’t precisely match those on file. In one case of supposed “fraud,” a confused non-citizen was asked at the motor vehicles bureau whether she wanted to fill out a voter registration form, and did so not realizing she was ineligible to vote.

Some of the desperate Republican attempts to keep college students from voting are almost comical in their transparent partisanship. No college ID card in Wisconsin meets the state’s new stringent requirements (as lawmakers knew full well), so the elections board proposed that colleges add stickers to the cards with expiration dates and signatures. Republican lawmakers protested that the stickers would lead to — yes, voter fraud.

Groucho48 posted:

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Clearly, you guys have no legitimate counter-argument.

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Sea_of_inK posted:

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If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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In 2007, the Bush administration decided to conduct a study to prove once and that voter fraud is a serious problem. An investigative group combed though years of records all over the country. Sure enough, they eventually found what they were looking for. There turned out actually to be cases of possible voter fraud involving impersonation, which is the sort that Photo IDs are intended to prevent. The total number of possible cases over several years came up with:

Nine. That's nine. Nationwide. Nine. Over several years, and several elections, all over the country. Nine. Did I mention 9?

It is broke.. Everyone admits and knows it's broke.

Groucho48 posted:

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But, of course, you will provide no evidence of this because you think you are in the majority, so, who cares if you are right or not.

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Tych2 posted:

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Sea_of_inK posted:

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If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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It is broke.. Everyone admits and knows it's broke.

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Sea_of_inK posted:

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Really? Who's that?

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Groucho48 posted:

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I care about real honest to goodness fraud...like in my original post.

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Sea_of_inK posted:

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You really believe that voter fraud is a big problem that requires addressing?

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Tych2 posted:

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Thugoneous posted:

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He should go to jail.

You should have to show your ID before voting.

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Thugoneous posted:

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He should go to jail.

You should have to show your ID before voting.

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AzureTyger posted:

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Even though the Indiana Supreme Court found no constitutional violation in the Voter ID law, they stated that it solved no known problems and was a transparently partisan tool for suppressing Democrat turn out.

I say go ahead and support it if you want to. Just be aware that: A) The facts don't support the need for it and B) It is an acknowledged method of suppressing voter turn out of one party. Then smack yourself in the face with your irony board every time you whine about partisanship.

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Moe_Nox posted:

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Voting regulation needs to be revamped at every stage.
You are correct, there is absolutely no evidence to warrant modernization of our procedures, aside from hanging chads, dead voters, voting multiple times, Florida, Supreme Court decisions, etc.

Ofcourse the liberal answer to any improvement is always "well this is just a drop in the bucket and won't solve everything!1!"

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Groucho48 posted:

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Moe_Nox posted:

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Voting regulation needs to be revamped at every stage.
You are correct, there is absolutely no evidence to warrant modernization of our procedures, aside from hanging chads, dead voters, voting multiple times, Florida, Supreme Court decisions, etc.

Ofcourse the liberal answer to any improvement is always "well this is just a drop in the bucket and won't solve everything!1!"

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Modernize? Sure. Fraud is most likely to occur behind the scenes. The owner of Diebold, who makes voting machines, guaranteed victory for Republicans. When Democrats went...Uh..wat?!?, Republicans laughed and mocked Democrats for being paranoid about fraud. But, yeah, all forms of recording the votes should have a paper trail that can be checked, if necessary, by an outside authority.

If someone or some organization really wanted to steal an election, the kind of fraud that could be prevented by picture IDs would be their last choice. It requires lots and lots of people, is very risky, is almost impossible to do in large enough numbers to actually make a difference, subjects everyone involved to felony charges and is very difficult to pull off.

In Florida, for example, in 2000, shortly before the election, Republican officials purged about 10000 black voters from the voting lists, claiming they were all felons. Turns out, well after the election, that 90% were perfectly legitimate voters. THAT'S the kind of thing that needs to be addressed.

As for dead folks voting, just update the rolls closer to the election. No reason for there to be a 2 or 4 week lag. Not that this is much of a problem, anyway.

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Tych2 posted:

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Problem: There is NO voter fraud
Solution:

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theredkay1 posted:

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Tych2 posted:

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Problem: There is NO voter fraud
Solution:

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Its always curious to see this response. People are sure there is voter fraud. THey cant prove anything. There is no evidence there is a problem with voter fraud. Yet they demand a fix...even without any evidence there is a problem. Tych's response is pretty classic in this case.....there is no response...we just have to assume there is a problem.

Raising hurdles to voting will suppress legitimate voting. If you are going to do something that suppresses voting, you should have an argument why we will be better off. Few even try to make this argument. I dont expect Tych to have a huge study drawn up...but you would expect someone proposing legislation to have some evidence.

Without evidence of a problem, its hard to support actions that make it harder for people to vote. We need more people voting. This country tries really hard already to make it a challenge to vote.

I saw a story about this Indiana situation. The GOP was pressed to provide support for a problem. They presented a long list of names of voters with fraudulent activity. All of them turned out to be clerical errors by the voting staff...except for the one guy who died after the election and showed up as voting and dead. So again...no actual fraud. Yet that has no impact on the discussion. Makes you wonder why that is.

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AzureTyger posted:

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Even though the Indiana Supreme Court found no constitutional violation in the Voter ID law, they stated that it solved no known problems and was a transparently partisan tool for suppressing Democrat turn out.

I say go ahead and support it if you want to. Just be aware that: A) The facts don't support the need for it and B) It is an acknowledged method of suppressing voter turn out of one party. Then smack yourself in the face with your irony board every time you whine about partisanship.

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Bobvillas posted:

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Why do ID cards hurt Dems and not Reps?

Who is it going to hamper from voting?

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Dorothy Cooper is 96 but she can remember only one election when she's been eligible to vote but hasn't.

The retired domestic worker was born in a small North Georgia town before women had the right to vote. She began casting ballots in her 20s after moving to Chattanooga for work. She missed voting for John F. Kennedy in 1960 because a move to Nashville prevented her from registering in time.

So when she learned last month at a community meeting that under a new state law she'd need a photo ID to vote next year, she talked with a volunteer about how to get to a state Driver Service Center to get her free ID. But when she got there Monday with an envelope full of documents, a clerk denied her request.

That morning, Cooper slipped a rent receipt, a copy of her lease, her voter registration card and her birth certificate into a Manila envelope. Typewritten on the birth certificate was her maiden name, Dorothy Alexander.

"But I didn't have my marriage certificate," Cooper said Tuesday afternoon, and that was the reason the clerk said she was denied a free voter ID at the Cherokee Boulevard Driver Service Center.

Sea_of_inK posted:

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Around 10 percent of eligible voters don't have a government issued ID.

In Texas, I can vote if I show my gun permits, but they recently disallowed school ID to vote.

Obviously most of these laws are to keep people who vote a certain way out of the political discourse. Since there is no evidence of widespread voter fraud, this is the only explanation. We've go serious problems and the GOP is coming up with ways to limit VOTING! Besides being a waste of time, it's incredibly obvious of them.

Don't buy into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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Cawlin posted:

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That's (the bold) not true. Your gun permits are a state or county issued legal identification document.

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Ashmaele posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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That's (the bold) not true. Your gun permits are a state or county issued legal identification document.

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What about voter ID cards?

Seriously, I voted last week and was not even asked for my voter registration card. All they wanted to see before they would hand me a ballot was a state issued picture ID.

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Fist_de_Yuma posted:

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AzureTyger posted:

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Even though the Indiana Supreme Court found no constitutional violation in the Voter ID law, they stated that it solved no known problems and was a transparently partisan tool for suppressing Democrat turn out.

I say go ahead and support it if you want to. Just be aware that: A) The facts don't support the need for it and B) It is an acknowledged method of suppressing voter turn out of one party. Then smack yourself in the face with your irony board every time you whine about partisanship.

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I get it. People afraid to show their ID are assumed to be Democrats, likely black. Typical Liberals assuming that all blacks are criminals. I wish the Democrats would get away from their racism. That would be like asking a blind man do see.

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A survey by the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law found that 11 percent of citizens, 21 million people, do not have a current photo ID. That fraction increases to 15 percent of low-income voting-age citizens, 18 percent of young eligible voters and 25 percent of black eligible voters.

Cawlin posted:

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Ashmaele posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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That's (the bold) not true. Your gun permits are a state or county issued legal identification document.

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What about voter ID cards?

Seriously, I voted last week and was not even asked for my voter registration card. All they wanted to see before they would hand me a ballot was a state issued picture ID.

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I would presume that this was because the could correlate your true identity with their roles of registered voters.

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Thugoneous posted:

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He should go to jail.

You should have to show your ID before voting.

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Thugoneous posted:

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He should go to jail.

You should have to show your ID before voting.

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