feelips
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I've been in the air force since 1991 and I have seen a lot of changes. Some for the better, most for the worse. By the look of things, it is going to get a lot worse. Over the last 20 years, I have seen the number of aircraft and uniformed personnel cut drasticaly. Today the air force has about half the number of permanent bases, uniformed personnel, and aircraft as it had 20 years ago.
Would it be reasonable to presume that our airforce would now be operating at half the cost before considering the inflated cost of more advanced weapon systems? Yes, but is it? No.
Here's one reason why, and I think many other people who have served a long time would agree with me on this. Civilian contractors. Consider the cost of recruiting, training, and deploying an army or airforce supply specialist to any base in the middle east then compare that cost to a civilian contractor working for the Department of Defense making hundreds of thousands of dollars PER YEAR doing the same thing there now. I think the tax payers would prefer to have two or more uniformed personnel available to perform a specific job for the price of one civilian personnel.
Civil Engineers. In the military, a uniformed civil engineer digs ditches, erects buildings and shelters, is an electrician, or plumber, etcetera. In the early 1950's air force civil engineers built an air force base in greenland. It was nuclear powered, most of the facilities were built under the ice sheet. This air force base was fully operational in only six freaking months!!!
Not too long ago, a civilian contractor was paid tens of thousands of dollars to dig a small water runoff retention pond on our base. It took them over a year to dig a 20' by 30' by 4' deep pond that collected rain water from our parking lot. This pond was supposed to be built to prevent any possible fuel spills from polluting a creek. We (our base) wanted this retention pond to be concrete and completely leak proof. They put a plastic tarp down, taped some seams, then left with the money they were paid. It does not hold water. The off base DOD organization that paid for this work does not seem to care at all. The latest word from them(over a year ago) was that the same contractor will be paid again to build a concrete retention pond.
These are few examples of a tremendous amount of money wasted by our government each year. Why, over the last 20 years, have we heard from our government that the number of uniformed personnel will be cut to save money, only to have those uniformed personnel replaced with much more expensive civilian contractors?
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feelips
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Recently, a person in my shop who used to work in supply, applied for a civilian contract job in the middle east doing the same supply job he used to do in the military at over 4 times the pay. A uniformed army or air force supply specialist had his job cut in the name saving money, only to be replaced by a civilian contractor doing the same job at four times the cost to us tax payers. WTF??
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Thugoneous
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Well said. It was always sad watching someone getting paid 3x what a sailor was getting paid to install evaps on my last ship, then deploying with 100 less people than the same ship would have 10 years ago.
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__Bonk__
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The US spends more than most of the world. It seriously needs to cut its military budget stop having so many costly wars.
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sweeny_comodore
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private business = good
capitalism = good
you people just need to get used to it and realise that the corporate raping and fleecing of america is here to stay.
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Eternal_Midnight
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Our military is in serious trouble.
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feelips posted:
These are few examples of a tremendous amount of money wasted by our government each year. Why, over the last 20 years, have we heard from our government that the number of uniformed personnel will be cut to save money, only to have those uniformed personnel replaced with much more expensive civilian contractors?
Because everyone has been sold on the idea that our so-called free market capitalism should apply to everything. Why let the government do it inefficiently, when the free market obviously does it better? They've privatized many former functions of the military because everyone was told it was more efficient.
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NuEM
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Our military is in serious trouble.
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feelips posted:
These are few examples of a tremendous amount of money wasted by our government each year. Why, over the last 20 years, have we heard from our government that the number of uniformed personnel will be cut to save money, only to have those uniformed personnel replaced with much more expensive civilian contractors?
Because the purpose of your military is not to defend you (well that too) but to make rich people more rich. Duh.
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__Bonk__
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The funny thing is when the US finally spends way less on its military in response US allies will have to spend way, way more on theirs
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Testerion
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Outsource your wars to India or China...You can get like zillion angry chinese to do your bidding with tenth of the costs!
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eodoll
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You have to also realize if a contractor (translator, ditch digger, etc..) is paid a 150k, thats not by the govt. the govt is paying another contracting company to source these people in. That contracting company helps with paying for security clearance.
Thats means - based on what i know about 3rd party consulting- the company getting the real contract is getting 60% minimum of the cost. So a 150k pay means the government is paying 320k or more .
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ZigmundZag
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Unpossible. We've been told that the invisible hand of the private market would correct such balances.
The 4x rule for private contractors isn't a universal truth, by the way. A former Army buddy of mine just interviewed for a job as a radiology specialist (his military and civilian job) in Afghanistan. He was interested in taking the position as his hours with his current employer have been cut. Turns out that the job was going to be for less pay / hour than he was currently earning once he did the math.
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Bjorvald
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The US spends about as much on defense as the rest of the world COMBINED. We can make very very VERY large defense cuts and be no less secure.
edit: quoted wrong reply.. oh well 
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Voodoo-Dahl
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feelips posted:
By the look of things, it is going to get a lot worse. Over the last 20 years, I have seen the number of aircraft and uniformed personnel cut drasticaly. Today the air force has about half the number of permanent bases, uniformed personnel, and aircraft as it had 20 years ago.
I don't think the claim has any basis in reality whatsoever.
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ZigmundZag
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Bjorvald posted:
The US spends about as much on defense as the rest of the world COMBINED. We can make very very VERY large defense cuts and be no less secure.
edit: quoted wrong reply.. oh well
Don't we spend something like 5x as much? Maybe those numbers were just NATO.
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eodoll
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Europe and other parts of the world would probably fall into a deeper recession if we cut our spending too much because they'd have to bump up their spending.
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Ptilk
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Why?
Who exactly are they defending Europe from?
On that same subject, who exactly is the US military defending the USA from?
Back to the original topic, The US military needs to go thru a drastic realignment. The number of standing troops needs to be slashed deeply. The number of bases and the amount of equipment needs to be cut by orders of magnitude. It's god damn obscene the amount of money we spend each year on a bloated, unwieldy, obsolete, and pointless military.
The civilian contractor situation is an even bigger problem, I agree with the OP in some measure on that point. It's where the real cash that is being stolen from us each year by connected and politically powerful corporations is funneled into their pockets. That isn't to say we should replace civilian contractors with military personnel, it's to say we should do away with the vast majority of the stuff those civilians do entirely.
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Elocism
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we have military personnel in over 150 countries on this planet
ridiculous
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Thugoneous
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But to be fair there's someone in the military in every Embassy so those numbers are inflated.
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eodoll
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If our military is not stationed in another country then most likely the russian military is stationed there. Yet we still spend way more than the Russians.
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NuEM
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Ptilk posted:
Why?
Who exactly are they defending Europe from?
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Thugoneous
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NuEM posted:
Ptilk posted:
Why?
Who exactly are they defending Europe from?
Themselves.
You're welcome.
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eodoll
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Well it's more than defense I guess... I think it's a question of monopolozing the war market. If you can have the monopoly on all things war, then you're pretty safe - everyone else is at risk.
Like with any product, if you dont allow any competition to exist or make sure all your competition is too small to really be an obstacle then you get to remain top dog.
It's not a bad place to be if you're an American.
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__Bonk__
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The US needs to seriously cut the size of its military. It cant afford it any longer.
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Sgian_Dubh
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eodoll posted:
Well it's more than defense I guess... I think it's a question of monopolozing the war market. If you can have the monopoly on all things war, then you're pretty safe - everyone else is at risk.
Like with any product, if you dont allow any competition to exist or make sure all your competition is too small to really be an obstacle then you get to remain top dog.
It's not a bad place to be if you're an American.
What you've just described is the natural evolution of any capitalist market.
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PackHunter
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Ptilk posted:
On that same subject, who exactly is the US military defending the USA from?
You own poor.
Without the military, where do you think most would end up? Yale?
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feelips
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Voodoo-Dahl posted:
feelips posted:
By the look of things, it is going to get a lot worse. Over the last 20 years, I have seen the number of aircraft and uniformed personnel cut drasticaly. Today the air force has about half the number of permanent bases, uniformed personnel, and aircraft as it had 20 years ago.
I don't think the claim has any basis in reality whatsoever.
We have 400 less F-16 fighter jets and 400 less F-15s today, and we retired 650 F-4s. The air force just announced that it is retiring 1/3 of our A-10 fleet. Our bomber fleet is also less than half of what it was 20 years ago.
Our 187th and final F-22 just came off the assembly line. F-35s are.... who knows? Then our numbers were over 500,000. Now our numbers are 325,000 with promises to cut it even more.
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MatrexMistwalker
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Been a very long day but I read something recently where a lot of DoD organizations are not allowed to shop around for a better price they are told so and so contracting will do job X for Y dollars... or you must purchase product X for Y dollars even though you can find a dozen places to get Product X for half the price.
This wasnt a DoD thing Congress worked this into a bill a few years back.
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Thugoneous
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The navy is bragging about using "green fuel" that cost a lot more than regular diesal or jet fuel. While at the same time cutting sailors who want to serve.
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smellymotor
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I often wondered about this too. It's not just an American problem. At the firm inwork for We have whole lines of business set up to advise the government on not just military but health, infrastructure etc
We recruit these people that used to be military of work for the dept of health/transport etc and then charge stupid amounts of money ($1300+ per hour if it's a partner) for advising on the work the work they had been doing in the first place.
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Yukishiro1
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Military contracting work has been, since the beginning of time, a very good way to line the pockets of politically connected favorites.
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Colwynne
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What?? Toilet seats cost 20,000$, deal with it!
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illmyrin
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feelips posted:
I've been told what to do and think for so long I can't figure out why my generals let the companies they plan to go work for rape the US tax payer.
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poetkiosk
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feelips posted:
Voodoo-Dahl posted:
feelips posted:
By the look of things, it is going to get a lot worse. Over the last 20 years, I have seen the number of aircraft and uniformed personnel cut drasticaly. Today the air force has about half the number of permanent bases, uniformed personnel, and aircraft as it had 20 years ago.
I don't think the claim has any basis in reality whatsoever.
We have 400 less F-16 fighter jets and 400 less F-15s today, and we retired 650 F-4s. The air force just announced that it is retiring 1/3 of our A-10 fleet. Our bomber fleet is also less than half of what it was 20 years ago.
Our 187th and final F-22 just came off the assembly line. F-35s are.... who knows? Then our numbers were over 500,000. Now our numbers are 325,000 with promises to cut it even more.
Good!
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AzureTyger
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Everyone knows that our military has more or less become corporate America's global profit enforcement arm.
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feelips
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poetkiosk posted:
feelips posted:
Voodoo-Dahl posted:
[quote=feelips] By the look of things, it is going to get a lot worse. Over the last 20 years, I have seen the number of aircraft and uniformed personnel cut drasticaly. Today the air force has about half the number of permanent bases, uniformed personnel, and aircraft as it had 20 years ago.
I don't think the claim has any basis in reality whatsoever.
We have 400 less F-16 fighter jets and 400 less F-15s today, and we retired 650 F-4s. The air force just announced that it is retiring 1/3 of our A-10 fleet. Our bomber fleet is also less than half of what it was 20 years ago.
Our 187th and final F-22 just came off the assembly line. F-35s are.... who knows? Then our numbers were over 500,000. Now our numbers are 325,000 with promises to cut it even more.
Good!
[/quote]
Good? not really. I get that one stealth bomber today can do the job of many aircraft of yesterday. The real problem is that uniformed personnel cuts are not really cuts. The uniformed personnel are replaced with much more expensive civilian contractors.
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feelips
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illmyrin posted:
feelips posted:
I've been told what to do and think for so long I can't figure out why my generals let the companies they plan to go work for rape the US tax payer.
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Fist_de_Yuma
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Funny that the people who hate business and love government cannot see that government is the problem here. Business will do whatever they can get away with. In the free market they cannot get away with much. Someone will take any mistake they make to drive them out of business. (At which point liberals will demand they be helped by the government.)
When government contracts for a job it is anything but free market. It is who know who. You can hardly blame business for government's failure. Well, no one with half a brain that is.
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reesescups
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feelips posted:
tl&dr
In summary - are you saying privatization is a bad thing?
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reesescups
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AzureTyger posted:
Everyone knows that our military has more or less become corporate America's global profit enforcement arm.
Obviously not everyone!
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illmyrin
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feelips posted:
illmyrin posted:
feelips posted:
I've been told what to do and think for so long I can't figure out why my generals let the companies they plan to go work for rape the US tax payer.
No really man  No offense. You've been busy for a while right? So it's no shocker that you're unaware of the racket our military has become. My fixing of your quote wasn't really meant as an insult just a humorous reflection of what people can get away with when they have the lower ranks distracted with wars.
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Clackdor
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Our military is in serious trouble.
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The military is overstretched. Not the same as what you are implying.
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Eager_Igraine
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Our military is in serious trouble.
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I've been entertained for years at the political trick of 'cutting defense spending' by spending ten times the money on private contracts.
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I know what you're trying to do but you're just sailing another failboat over the falls. - imaloon1
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Desnoxvu
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Our military is in serious trouble.
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It is actually worse than most people think. They are cutting back on benefits to vets. Ironically this is the one area that Obama is willing to cut yet Ron Paul with his trillion dollar cuts doesn't take one penny from Vets, SS or Medicare.
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Ron Paul 2012
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Voodoo-Dahl
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Our military is in serious trouble.
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Desnoxvu posted:
It is actually worse than most people think. They are cutting back on benefits to vets. Ironically this is the one area that Obama is willing to cut yet Ron Paul with his trillion dollar cuts doesn't take one penny from Vets, SS or Medicare.
source?
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Desnoxvu
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Our military is in serious trouble.
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Voodoo-Dahl posted:
Desnoxvu posted:
It is actually worse than most people think. They are cutting back on benefits to vets. Ironically this is the one area that Obama is willing to cut yet Ron Paul with his trillion dollar cuts doesn't take one penny from Vets, SS or Medicare.
source?
Source for what? Do I need to give you a lesson on the intraweb? Don't look for the source on Fox or MSNBC..
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Kjarhall
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feelips posted:
Good? not really. I get that one stealth bomber today can do the job of many aircraft of yesterday. The real problem is that uniformed personnel cuts are not really cuts. The uniformed personnel are replaced with much more expensive civilian contractors.
So we should get rid of them too.
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*http://vnboards.ign.com/outpost/b22180/115147923/r115151508/
hah! true story tho i'm a woman an i even love boobs..how can you not??- HallowEve
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Kjarhall
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
In the free market they cannot get away with much. Someone will take any mistake they make to drive them out of business.
You almost had a decent post until you added in this bit of stupid.
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*http://vnboards.ign.com/outpost/b22180/115147923/r115151508/
hah! true story tho i'm a woman an i even love boobs..how can you not??- HallowEve
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