paulg_68
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Subject:
Another stealing hypothetical
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You are waiting for a bus and notice your wallet is missing. You try to think of where it might be and then you remember that a guy bumped into you just a minute before. You suspect he may have lifted your wallet. You find him a block away. He's standing with his back to you and his backpack is partially unzipped. Inside, you can see your wallet. You know it's yours because you can even see your drivers license peaking out.
If you say something to the guy, you know he will bolt. You don't have your cell phone so you can't call the cops. You're fairly certain you could just reach in and take it.
Based on your personal definition of stealing (not the legal definition, yours personally), would it be stealing to take the wallet?
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Modeeb
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Take the wallet and anything of value within grasp. Insert post it note which says Futz you!
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IMHO
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Who cares? I bat the guy in the back of the head, when he hits the ground I would kick him a couple of times and then grab my wallet.
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Yukishiro1
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Subject:
Another stealing hypothetical
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No.
And that example is not the same as the other one.
Repossesing stolen property is not the same as stealing money from someone who owes you money but who didn't steal it in the first place.
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paulg_68
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Subject:
Another stealing hypothetical
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Yukishiro1 posted:
No.
And that example is not the same as the other one.
Repossesing stolen property is not the same as stealing money from someone who owes you money but who didn't steal it in the first place.
Because your friend defrauded you instead of stealing? That makes a difference?
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Yukishiro1
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Another stealing hypothetical
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I'm not sure "defraud" is really a good word. It didn't sound like he never intended to pay you back in the first place.
But regardless, yes, it is different. Taking back stolen property forcibly from the thief is not morally equivalent to taking money someone owes you from them forcibly.
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IMHO
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God help us if Paul ever becomes a vegan. 
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You're Right ~ Koneg
He's [Manegarm] like the Fred Phelps of atheism. ~Bubbledude
many of you are in the Republican boat, aka the ship of fools. ~Modeeb
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Clackdor
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Another stealing hypothetical
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paulg_68
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Subject:
Another stealing hypothetical
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Yukishiro1 posted:
But regardless, yes, it is different. Taking back stolen property forcibly from the thief is not morally equivalent to taking money someone owes you from them forcibly.
I don't see a moral difference between theft and fraud.
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If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc "Everyone has a chance to become rich." - Groucho48 "Most of the human wealth on earth exists between the ears of live human beings." - theredkay1
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Yukishiro1
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Another stealing hypothetical
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The other hypotehtical didn't involve fraud.
If you want to make a third dumb hypothetical and debate whether fraud changes the issue feel free I guess but I'm not sure people are going to let you have another bite at the apple when you failed the first time.
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Cawlin
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Agree with Yuki here. There are clear differences.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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How did this suddenly go moral... from the 'lawyer' no less?
Is it LEGALLY stealing to repossess the wallet in this scenario?
If it is NOT stealing here, why would it LEGALLY be stealing in the case of fraud, instead?
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Cawlin
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Another stealing hypothetical
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
How did this suddenly go moral... from the 'lawyer' no less?
Is it LEGALLY stealing to repossess the wallet in this scenario?
If it is NOT stealing here, why would it LEGALLY be stealing in the case of fraud, instead?
It went "moral" when Paul argued in the other thread that morally he felt justified in taking money from the guy's wallet without the guy's permission (or even awareness that he was in the wallet to begin with).
The addition of the morality issue was Paul's. Paul asserts that in these cases morality > law.
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Yukishiro1
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Another stealing hypothetical
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He asked about morality, not legality. Try to keep up fatty.
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vn_nnanji
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Another stealing hypothetical
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Who ordered the paul minimelt?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Another stealing hypothetical
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Yukishiro1 posted:
He asked about morality, not legality. Try to keep up fatty.
But we KNOW where he's going with this. He just telegraphed it a couple posts up.
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paulg_68
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Subject:
Another stealing hypothetical
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Yukishiro1 posted:
The other hypotehtical didn't involve fraud.
Of course it did.
Loans of that nature are to be paid back as soon as the money is available. It's implied and it's common knowledge.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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IMHO posted:
God help us if Paul ever becomes a vegan.
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Cawlin
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Another stealing hypothetical
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paulg_68 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
The other hypotehtical didn't involve fraud.
Of course it did.
Loans of that nature are to be paid back as soon as the money is available. It's implied and it's common knowledge.
Your definition of "common knowledge" is precisely why written SPECIFIC agreements are created for lending serious money. It is actually NOT common knowledge at all what you're saying, hence the reason for defined terms and contractual arrangements.
One person's definition of "available" is not the same as another's.
To YOU "available" might mean "as soon as he has 50 bucks in his hands to give back.
To the other guy it might mean "as soon as I have 50 bucks after I take care of all my bills and my routine recreational spending".
THIS is common knowledge and THIS is why it's common knowledge that unless you discuss specific terms of the repayment of a loan and seek some guarantee of understanding of and agreement to these terms, that you should consider any loan a gift, ESPECIALLY if it's between friends and/or acquaintances.
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Tych2
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IMHO posted:
God help us if Paul ever becomes a vegan.
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paulg_68
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Cawlin posted:
One person's definition of "available" is not the same as another's.
The guy was playing poker. The money was available.
You're beaten if you have to imply otherwise.
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If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc "Everyone has a chance to become rich." - Groucho48 "Most of the human wealth on earth exists between the ears of live human beings." - theredkay1
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Yukishiro1
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Subject:
Another stealing hypothetical
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paulg_68 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
The other hypotehtical didn't involve fraud.
Of course it did.
Loans of that nature are to be paid back as soon as the money is available. It's implied and it's common knowledge.
No, and besides the point anyway. Fraud involves the mental state of the fraudster, not common knowledge.
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paulg_68
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The fraudster knew he was supposed to pay back the money and not use it for playing poker.
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If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc "Everyone has a chance to become rich." - Groucho48 "Most of the human wealth on earth exists between the ears of live human beings." - theredkay1
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Cawlin
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Subject:
Another stealing hypothetical
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paulg_68 posted:
Cawlin posted:
One person's definition of "available" is not the same as another's.
The guy was playing poker. The money was available.
You're beaten if you have to imply otherwise.
Beaten? What?
Dude, seriously...
This is why it is common knowledge that you don't lend money among friends unless you are willing to consider the money a gift. All sorts of things happen between friends and within casual (not business) relationships.
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Yukishiro1
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What you are claiming is fraud is not fraud. HTH.
Fraud would be him saying "I'll pay you back when I can" with the intent NOT to do it.
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Kjarhall
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I can't believe you are actually entertaining a SECOND post of Pauls stupid.
The only correct answer should be:
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vn_nnanji
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So the takaway is that Kjar is a brony?
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GrilledCheez
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WTF is going on here?
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paulg_68
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Another stealing hypothetical
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Yukishiro1 posted:
What you are claiming is fraud is not fraud. HTH.
Fraud would be him saying "I'll pay you back when I can" with the intent NOT to do it.
So you don't accept the concept of implied terms of an agreement, or are you merely arguing that paying the money back soon wasn't one of the implied terms of this agreement?
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