Ashmaele
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Subject:
Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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Say you're at a poker game with a group of friends. The poker game is being played at your friend's house (we will call him Sam), and you have all agreed that whoever 'hosts' the game is responsible for paying for pizza. Sam, who is hosting this game, has lost quite a bit during this session and is unable to afford the cost of pizza this time so he asks you to cover it, assuring you that he will "pay you back" at some point (though he does not specify 'when'). So you pull $50 out of your wallet and pay for the pizza.
The following week you are at another friend's house for a party and you run into Sam. You ask your buddy to repay the $50 he now owes you, but he says that he can't, complaining that he has had a "run of bad luck" and really cannot afford it right now. You take it in stride.
The following week, the two of you are at a third friend's house (we will call him "Bob") preparing to go out for an evening on the town. Sam gives his wallet to Bob while he (Sam) goes into the bathroom to change clothes. Bob looks in Sam's wallet and sees $200 in cash. Bob notifies you of the existence of this cash and, knowing that Sam owes you $50, urges you to take 'your' $50 from Sam's wallet since 'it is your money anyway.'
1. Do you take the money?
2. If you take the money, is it stealing?
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Elocism
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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no
yes
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you are broken now
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Tych2
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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Yes that is stealing. It's not yours until he hands it to you. You loaned him the money and agreed with the ambiguous pay you back whenever terms.
1) You don't take the money.
2) Yes it is stealing.
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theredkay1
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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Elocism posted:
no
yes
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Cawlin
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Subject:
Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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Elocism posted:
no
yes
This.
When you loan money, you assume the risk of it being paid back (or not).
That $200 in the guy's wallet could be his child support payment he's going to make tomorrow, you don't know, and it's not for you to say without a court order.
Neither a borrower, nor a lender be.
It's $50 bud. Is it worth your friendship with this guy?
If $50 is that important to you, I will give you the money and you can send me the $50 when your friend pays you back, if ever. (and I mean no offense there, just making a point about things)
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paulg_68
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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No I wouldn't take it. If I did, it would not be stealing.
I'm not sure why people imagine the ambiguity of the loan only works in favor of your friend. There's no reason it can't work in your favor as well.
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Cawlin
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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paulg_68 posted:
No I wouldn't take it. If I did, it would not be stealing.
I'm not sure why people imagine the ambiguity of the loan only works in favor of your friend. There's no reason it can't work in your favor as well.
The law says that you cannot come and take peoples' property if they owe you money without an order of repossession. There are rules for debt collection.
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paulg_68
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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Cawlin posted:
That $200 in the guy's wallet could be his child support payment he's going to make tomorrow, you don't know, and it's not for you to say without a court order.
There is legal and there is moral. It is probably stealing under the law. Not morally though.
A court order has no effect on the moral nature of the situation.
Moral > Legal
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If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc "Everyone has a chance to become rich." - Groucho48 "Most of the human wealth on earth exists between the ears of live human beings." - theredkay1
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Cawlin
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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paulg_68 posted:
Cawlin posted:
That $200 in the guy's wallet could be his child support payment he's going to make tomorrow, you don't know, and it's not for you to say without a court order.
There is legal and there is moral. It is probably stealing under the law. Not morally though.
A court order has no effect on the moral nature of the situation.
Fair point, but I would argue morally that it's still theft (and legally it pretty clearly would be theft/stealing so the semantics probably favor my argument).
Again: you assume the risk when you loan money. That's what interest is all about and all that stuff.
Morality is subjective to a degree. I think that morally, you as the lender, should have discussed terms of repayment with the borrower if you had some expectation of it.
You can make all the arguments in the world about whether or not the guy should have been playing poker or whatever else, but the fact remains, you did not seek such arrangements for repayment upon making the loan and that's your bag as the lender to hold.
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Ashmaele
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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Tych2 posted:
Yes that is stealing. It's not yours until he hands it to you. You loaned him the money and agreed with the ambiguous pay you back whenever terms.
What if he had given you a specific time that he would pay you back, such as, "I will pay you back tomorrow after I have had a chance to run by an ATM." Does your answer change?
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Tych2
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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paulg_68 posted:
No I wouldn't take it. If I did, it would not be stealing.
I'm not sure why people imagine the ambiguity of the loan only works in favor of your friend. There's no reason it can't work in your favor as well.
Don't you ever watch Judge Judy? Yes it is stealing. Ask one of our many lawyers here.
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Cawlin
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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Ashmaele posted:
Tych2 posted:
Yes that is stealing. It's not yours until he hands it to you. You loaned him the money and agreed with the ambiguous pay you back whenever terms.
What if he had given you a specific time that he would pay you back, such as, "I will pay you back tomorrow after I have had a chance to run by an ATM." Does your answer change?
My answer doesn't change.
I would consider $50 a fairly inexpensive lesson in such a case, about the trustworthiness of the person involved.
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Tych2
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Ashmaele posted:
Tych2 posted:
Yes that is stealing. It's not yours until he hands it to you. You loaned him the money and agreed with the ambiguous pay you back whenever terms.
What if he had given you a specific time that he would pay you back, such as, "I will pay you back tomorrow after I have had a chance to run by an ATM." Does your answer change?
He would be in default of your agreement and you'd be within your rights to take him to small claims and you would win. It wouldn't change my answer. You cannot take the money from his wallet. That is stealing no matter how you cut it.
Sucks but words I give both my kids and my niece. Never loan money you aren't willing to lose.
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paulg_68
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Cawlin posted:
Fair point, but I would argue morally that it's still theft
Taking the money is merely calling in the loan.
Just because the terms of the loan have not been made explicit doesn't mean that each party didn't have something in mind. If you took the money back, it's because you considered that to be within the terms of the loan in your mind. Personally, I think the default terms of such a loan are that the loan is due as soon as your friend has the money. He had the money. If anything, his failure to pay voluntarily makes him a thief.
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Ashmaele
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paulg_68 posted:
Cawlin posted:
Fair point, but I would argue morally that it's still theft
Taking the money is merely calling in the loan.
Just because the terms of the loan have not been made explicit doesn't mean that each party didn't have something in mind. If you took the money back, it's because you considered that to be within the terms of the loan in your mind. Personally, I think the default terms of such a loan are that the loan is due as soon as your friend has the money. He had the money. If anything, his failure to pay voluntarily makes him a thief.
No. You gave Sam the money willingly.
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Tych2
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 Jesus Christ Paul the mental hoops you jump through is astounding.
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paulg_68
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Ashmaele posted:
No. You gave Sam the money willingly.
So what? If I write you a bad check and you willingly give me cash does that mean I'm not a thief because you gave it to me voluntarily?
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If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc "Everyone has a chance to become rich." - Groucho48 "Most of the human wealth on earth exists between the ears of live human beings." - theredkay1
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Eager_Igraine
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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Elocism posted:
no
yes
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Kjarhall
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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Tych2 posted:
Jesus Christ Paul the mental hoops you jump through is astounding.
Paul posted:
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You're a crazy moron*
*http://vnboards.ign.com/outpost/b22180/115147923/r115151508/
hah! true story tho i'm a woman an i even love boobs..how can you not??- HallowEve
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Taliesihne
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1) No.
2) Yes.
Also, just because he has $200 in cash doesn't mean it's disposable income. I'm not defending him (and don't know all the facts), I'm just noting that the cash could have been there to pay a bill.
Imo, I'd freeze him out of the poker game until the debt is repaid. Kinda BS to me that he's had a 'run of bad luck' but can still afford to show up at Poker games and nights on the town.
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Modeeb
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Just looking through the wallet is a breach of friendship etiquette. Getting repaid is another task. You may never get repaid.
Once as a very young man, I left a hundred dollar bill on a table in my house. A friend was visiting. I took a shower and when we left i noticed my hundred dollar bill was gone. What did I do?
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ZigmundZag
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I'm guessing Paul doesn't have a lot of friends that ask him for money.
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Taliesihne
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ZigmundZag posted:
I'm guessing Paul doesn't have a lot of friends
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paulg_68
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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ZigmundZag posted:
I'm guessing Paul doesn't have a lot of friends that ask him for money.
I said I wouldn't take the money out of his wallet.
I have lent money to friends on many occasions and been paid back no more than 60% of the time.
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Cawlin
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paulg_68 posted:
Ashmaele posted:
No. You gave Sam the money willingly.
So what? If I write you a bad check and you willingly give me cash does that mean I'm not a thief because you gave it to me voluntarily?
In that case, the person writing the bad check did so fraudulently. There is a reasonable expectation that the check is "valid" and there are funds to back it at the moment it's written unless there is some sort of arrangement such as "don't cash this until next Friday OK?"
Your legal recourse in such a situation is to sue them in court for the money.
Any other recourse you might take against them physically or by taking possession against his will of any of his other belongings or property is illegal.
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Ashmaele
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Modeeb posted:
Just looking through the wallet is a breach of friendship etiquette. Getting repaid is another task. You may never get repaid.
Once as a very young man, I left a hundred dollar bill on a table in my house. A friend was visiting. I took a shower and when we left i noticed my hundred dollar bill was gone. What did I do?
You took another shower and it reappeared?
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Wouldn't it be simpler to just say, "Hey Sam, I need that 50 you owe me, I'm a broke douchebag who loaned you money when I couldn't afford to."
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Modeeb
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I accused him of taking the money. It really ended our friendship.
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paulg_68
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Modeeb posted:
I accused him of taking the money. It really ended our friendship.
Your accusation isn't what ended the friendship.
Unless of course you were wrong that is.
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IMHO
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ZigmundZag posted:
I'm guessing Paul doesn't have a lot of friends.
fixt
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Modeeb
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Me being wrong is always a possibility.
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paulg_68
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Cawlin posted:
Any other recourse you might take against them physically or by taking possession against his will of any of his other belongings or property is illegal.
I agreed from the start that it was illegal.
No need to beat that dead horse.
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vn_nnanji
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Reaching into someone's wallet without permission is stealing.
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Yukishiro1
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vn_nnanji posted:
Reaching into someone's wallet without permission is stealing.
Yep. Unless maybe they just stole some money from you and then put it in their wallet.
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Clackdor
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Paul plays both sides against the middle worse than anybody I know.
Confront him. Tell him you know how much he has in his wallet and ask for yours back.
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Cawlin
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paulg_68 posted:
Cawlin posted:
Any other recourse you might take against them physically or by taking possession against his will of any of his other belongings or property is illegal.
I agreed from the start that it was illegal.
No need to beat that dead horse.
So you don't see the moral obligation to obey the law under this circumstance?
By disobeying the law you establish a VERY clear slippery slope for the kind of behavior which is the primary reason for the law in the first place.
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paulg_68
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Subject:
Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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Cawlin posted:
So you don't see the moral obligation to obey the law under this circumstance?
There is no moral obligation to obey the law unless you granted the lawmakers the authority to make the laws.
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Ptilk
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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I wouldn't have lent him the 50 in the first place.
I would have given it to him.
If he somehow managed to owe me 50 bucks, I wouldn't ever expect it back, care if I got it back, or thought about it again.
I would have also punched the asshole that was going thru his wallet.
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Cawlin
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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paulg_68 posted:
Cawlin posted:
So you don't see the moral obligation to obey the law under this circumstance?
There is no moral obligation to obey the law unless you granted the lawmakers the authority to make the laws.
That's called a social contract and it is bespoke, or assumed.
When you get down to it, law is only a subjective discrimination based on what a (presumably) majority of people agree is "right".
Granted in some cases it gets very grey and fuzzy, but this is not such a case and to be honest, it's a little simplistic to argue that because SOME laws are grey, all are - this is not an "in for a penny, in for a pound" argument.
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paulg_68
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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Cawlin posted:
paulg_68 posted:
Cawlin posted:
So you don't see the moral obligation to obey the law under this circumstance?
There is no moral obligation to obey the law unless you granted the lawmakers the authority to make the laws.
That's called a social contract and it is bespoke, or assumed.
I just made a law that you owe me $100. I'll PM you my paypal info.
Cawlin posted:
When you get down to it, law is only a subjective discrimination based on what a (presumably) majority of people agree is "right".
Granted in some cases it gets very grey and fuzzy, but this is not such a case and to be honest, it's a little simplistic to argue that because SOME laws are grey, all are - this is not an "in for a penny, in for a pound" argument.
The guy has $50 that is yours and you take it. That doesn't even qualify as fuzzy?
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Cawlin
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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paulg_68 posted:
Cawlin posted:
paulg_68 posted:
There is no moral obligation to obey the law unless you granted the lawmakers the authority to make the laws.
That's called a social contract and it is bespoke, or assumed.
I just made a law that you owe me $100. I'll PM you my paypal info.
Oh really? I thought that was a gift. Sorry, when we discussed that money, I was under the impression that it was a gift. I will loan you $100 but I'm going to need a contract of repayment terms or some collateral before I do so though.
paulg_68 posted:
Cawlin posted:
When you get down to it, law is only a subjective discrimination based on what a (presumably) majority of people agree is "right".
Granted in some cases it gets very grey and fuzzy, but this is not such a case and to be honest, it's a little simplistic to argue that because SOME laws are grey, all are - this is not an "in for a penny, in for a pound" argument.
The guy has $50 that is yours and you take it. That doesn't even qualify as fuzzy?
It's not yours. You loaned him the money. He owes you $50 because he asked to borrow it for an undisclosed period of time. You sought no clarification of the terms, thus you tacitly agreed to whatever his terms were. You can take the money back without his permission or even knowledge and he will likely not press charges against you, but you would be legally in the wrong, and you would be morally in the wrong too imo.
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paulg_68
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Cawlin posted:
paulg_68 posted:
I just made a law that you owe me $100. I'll PM you my paypal info.
Oh really? I thought that was a gift. Sorry, when we discussed that money, I was under the impression that it was a gift.
We didn't have a discussion. I just made a law. The law is the law and you are morally obligated to follow it because it is the law. Now pay up.
Cawlin posted:
It's not yours. You loaned him the money.
So if I lent you my car the car is morally yours?
I don't think so.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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If you loan me your car and I take it to Mexico to smuggle illegals across the border and get caught, do you think the police will just hand you your car back? So its not 100% yours when someone else has domain of it. Where are the lawyers to define Ownership when you need them?
Loans between friends are repaid at the earliest convenience. If you loan me money and then go out of town, do I have to follow you there the moment I have the money?
The only reason why him having the money on him matters is if you think its a sign he won't pay you back. If you don't trust him, why would you loan him money in the first place?
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Cawlin
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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paulg_68 posted:
Cawlin posted:
paulg_68 posted:
I just made a law that you owe me $100. I'll PM you my paypal info.
Oh really? I thought that was a gift. Sorry, when we discussed that money, I was under the impression that it was a gift.
We didn't have a discussion. I just made a law. The law is the law and you are morally obligated to follow it because it is the law. Now pay up.
Cawlin posted:
It's not yours. You loaned him the money.
So if I lent you my car the car is morally yours?
I don't think so.
So you don't understand how laws work either? First you have to have the authority to enforce a law. There are lots of ways to gain that authority, moral and otherwise, but I'm pretty sure you don't have any authority (or means) to enforce that law.
Also, scope/scale matter in the discussion.
Typically when a loan of a vehicle is discussed there are clear terms about the loan discussed such as: "hey could I borrow your truck on Sunday to move my siht back and forth, I would like to borrow it starting at 9am or so and should be done by 6pm."
Additionally there are legal prohibitions against loaning/borrowing certain types of property (namely firearms) as well.
Finally, I made no comment on the morality of not paying the loan back. I believe it would be immoral to not pay the loan back under the circumstances indicated, but I also believe that two wrongs don't make a right.
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Koneg
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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Elocism posted:
no
yes
This.
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Orwyn_Blackheart
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Subject:
Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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Ashmaele posted:
Say you're at a poker game with a group of friends. The poker game is being played at your friend's house (we will call him Sam), and you have all agreed that whoever 'hosts' the game is responsible for paying for pizza. Sam, who is hosting this game, has lost quite a bit during this session and is unable to afford the cost of pizza this time so he asks you to cover it, assuring you that he will "pay you back" at some point (though he does not specify 'when'). So you pull $50 out of your wallet and pay for the pizza.
The following week you are at another friend's house for a party and you run into Sam. You ask your buddy to repay the $50 he now owes you, but he says that he can't, complaining that he has had a "run of bad luck" and really cannot afford it right now. You take it in stride.
The following week, the two of you are at a third friend's house (we will call him "Bob") preparing to go out for an evening on the town. Sam gives his wallet to Bob while he (Sam) goes into the bathroom to change clothes. Bob looks in Sam's wallet and sees $200 in cash. Bob notifies you of the existence of this cash and, knowing that Sam owes you $50, urges you to take 'your' $50 from Sam's wallet since 'it is your money anyway.'
1. Do you take the money?
2. If you take the money, is it stealing?
no prolly coz the dude is lonely and he needs to pay 100 each to Moe and Tych for some buttsex..... (wearing wigs of course)
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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God damn you got trolled hard by those two. This is like the third thread I've seen in two days that you arglebargle about them for no reason.
/meltdown.
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paulg_68
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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Cawlin posted:
So you don't understand how laws work either? First you have to have the authority to enforce a law. There are lots of ways to gain that authority, moral and otherwise, but I'm pretty sure you don't have any authority (or means) to enforce that law.
There is only one way to have the authority and that is to have it granted to the lawmakers by those who will be subject to the laws. Otherwise it is merely an exercise of power.
Cawlin posted:
Typically when a loan of a vehicle is discussed there are clear terms about the loan discussed such as: "hey could I borrow your truck on Sunday to move my siht back and forth, I would like to borrow it starting at 9am or so and should be done by 6pm."
My neighbor once knocked on my door and said her car wouldn't start and she needed to pick up her kid. I gave her the keys to mine. There was no discussion of when I would get the car back.
The absence of a discussion did not mean she now owned my car until she deigned to give it back. The car was lent until she picked up her kid because that was an implied term of the loan. It was my right to take the car back anytime I wanted after that.
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smellymotor
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Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours?
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Elocism posted:
no
yes
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smellymotor
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