Sin_of_Onin
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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I think it is that sustaining trade imbalances through capital flows will eventually lead to harm done to both countries. The one importing the capital will be carrying more and more debt to the point that eventually cuts have to be made and the country exporting the debt will have to take losses on their investments.
Meanwhile the problem will likely be blamed on things like social programs which are present in both nations and is a largely immaterial issue to the crisis.
Even debt by the government is a different issue when capital flows are balanced versus when they are not.
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paulg_68
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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Whenever libtards spend more money than they are making, they call it an "investment".
Very few social programs are an investment. Many of the ones that are are bad investments.
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Sin_of_Onin
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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paulg_68 posted:
Whenever libtards spend more money than they are making, they call it an "investment".
Very few social programs are an investment. Many of the ones that are are bad investments.
What a stupid post. The investment in question is mostly into government debt. From the investor's standpoint it has been used to not only invest in government bonds but also as a way to increase consumption in areas your country plans to export to.
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paulg_68
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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The Eurozone crisis is from the government spending wayyy more than they take in. They call that spending an "investment".
It's not. It's just unjustified consumption.
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Manegarm
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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paulg_68 posted:
Whenever libtards spend more money than they are making, they call it an "investment".
Very few social programs are an investment. Many of the ones that are are bad investments.
Proof that Paulsie is wrong: Sweden, Norway, Finland, Germany, Denmark etc etc
Like everything else if a state is governed right it will be successful, what social programs do is that they keep the lowest rung of society from hitting rock bottom, rock bottom creates nothing but crime and social problems which makes it harder for the individuals on that rung to rise above.
More proof; Most of Sweden was impoverished some hundred years ago, considered one of the poorest countries in Europe until what Paulsie says are "Libtards" was voted into power.
The same Libtard planning and Libtard regulation kept much of the harm of the last economic brouhaha to a minimum.
Paulsie is a blind idealist, Social Democracy is however always taking the best from capitalism and socialism and forming a functioning society built upon hard labour, solidarity with the poor and a pragmatic stance on capitalism.
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Sin_of_Onin
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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paulg_68 posted:
The Eurozone crisis is from the government spending wayyy more than they take in. They call that spending an "investment".
It's not. It's just unjustified consumption.
Germany has similar government debt levels and social programs.
Your position is stupid and factually wrong.
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Eager_Igraine
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
paulg_68 posted:
The Eurozone crisis is from the government spending wayyy more than they take in. They call that spending an "investment".
It's not. It's just unjustified consumption.
Germany has similar government debt levels and social programs.
Your position is stupid and factually wrong.
What a shocker!
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theredkay1
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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I think the lesson is the danger of denominating your debt in a currency controlled by a foreign bank. This always ends badly.
Additionally the danger of creating a monetary union between areas that have big social seperations. Workers moving from Ohio to Texas is much more likely than workers moving from Germany to Spain or vice versa. If you are working in one big coordinated economy, workers need to be able to move around. Those capital flows would have had different results if lots of Germans had responded to exploding wages and low unemployment in Spain by moving there.
These are probably not the lessons that will be taken away from this event...but they should be.
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Bonzoboy1
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I thought the lesson of the Eurozone is that joining Germany doesn't make you a member of the master race?
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Sin_of_Onin
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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theredkay1 posted:
I think the lesson is the danger of denominating your debt in a currency controlled by a foreign bank. This always ends badly.
Additionally the danger of creating a monetary union between areas that have big social seperations. Workers moving from Ohio to Texas is much more likely than workers moving from Germany to Spain or vice versa. If you are working in one big coordinated economy, workers need to be able to move around. Those capital flows would have had different results if lots of Germans had responded to exploding wages and low unemployment in Spain by moving there.
These are probably not the lessons that will be taken away from this event...but they should be.
There is no doubt that the lack of different currencies changes the equation in terms of how the economy can respond to the changes but I think Greece is still up crap creek without a paddle.
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NuEM
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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That you can't have a financial union without also having a political, economical and social union.
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illmyrin
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"There will be a global, engineered, economic collapse used to bring in a one world currency and one world government." Illmyrin, 2002 The Economy Is Great Land.
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Friarspam
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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Here is a great example of why the US is in deep crap that a friend sent me.
* U.S. Tax revenue: $2,170,000,000,000
* Fed budget: $3,820,000,000,000
* New debt: $ 1,650,000,000,000
* National debt: $14,271,000,000,000
* Recent budget cuts: $ 38,500,000,000
It's hard to keep track of all those zeros, so let's remove 8 of them and pretend it's a household budget:
* Annual family income: $21,700
* Money the family spent: $38,200
* New debt on the credit card: $16,500
* Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710
* Total budget cuts: $385.. (Doesn't even come close to covering the interest on the debt of $5,000+.)
Now, can someone tell me how doing the same old stuff is viable?
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Ptilk
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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Calls for austerity are stupid.
Actually going thru with austerity measures is suicidal.
Debt isn't the problem, listening to the idiots who loaned you the money you spent is.
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Bjorvald
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For me the overriding lesson is that governments will never do the right things and they will always find the most expensive way possible to fail.
All while ensuring the maximum possible long-term pain for their people.
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Sin_of_Onin
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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Friarspam posted:
Here is a great example of why the US is in deep crap that a friend sent me.
* U.S. Tax revenue: $2,170,000,000,000
* Fed budget: $3,820,000,000,000
* New debt: $ 1,650,000,000,000
* National debt: $14,271,000,000,000
* Recent budget cuts: $ 38,500,000,000
It's hard to keep track of all those zeros, so let's remove 8 of them and pretend it's a household budget:
* Annual family income: $21,700
* Money the family spent: $38,200
* New debt on the credit card: $16,500
* Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710
* Total budget cuts: $385.. (Doesn't even come close to covering the interest on the debt of $5,000+.)
Now, can someone tell me how doing the same old stuff is viable?
The thing with debt is that if you are borrowing from other Americans then you are crowding out investment and other consumption. If you are borrowing from a foreign nation you are not crowding out that investment but you are proping up short term consumption (and investment) while hurting production.
The equation of government debt changes drastically once foreign investment is considered.
I think it is pretty clear that Greece is struggling in large part because their consumption was so inflated beyond their production and the economy can't respond and make the correction.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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Ptilk posted:
Calls for austerity are stupid.
Actually going thru with austerity measures is suicidal.
Debt isn't the problem, listening to the idiots who loaned you the money you spent is.
Deficit spending beyond your annual income or ability to repay all outstanding debts within 1-2 years is stupid.
Digging a hole of 50... 90... 120% of your GDP is suicidal.
Asking others to let you dig the hole EVEN DEEPER is murderously stupid and should be punishable as treason.
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Koneg
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Meanwhile the problem will likely be blamed on things like social programs which are present in both nations and is a largely immaterial issue to the crisis.
Right, because spending way more money then you take in has absolutely no effect on your debt burden. 
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theredkay1
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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Friarspam posted:
It's hard to keep track of all those zeros, so let's remove 8 of them and pretend it's a household budget:
* Annual family income: $21,700
* Money the family spent: $38,200
* New debt on the credit card: $16,500
* Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710
* Total budget cuts: $385.. (Doesn't even come close to covering the interest on the debt of $5,000+.)
Total Assets - $1,800,000
Chance of ever running short of cash - 0%
Now, can someone tell me how doing the same old stuff is viable?
http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/Current/
You forgot two important things.
The 7 billion people involved in the debt markets dont share your outlook either.
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theredkay1
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Digging a hole of 50... 90... 120% of your GDP is suicidal.
The plethora of countries with high debt/GDP ratios and low interest rates should impact your opinion. The actual world just doesnt agree with you.
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Friarspam
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theredkay1 posted:
Friarspam posted:
It's hard to keep track of all those zeros, so let's remove 8 of them and pretend it's a household budget:
* Annual family income: $21,700
* Money the family spent: $38,200
* New debt on the credit card: $16,500
* Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710
* Total budget cuts: $385.. (Doesn't even come close to covering the interest on the debt of $5,000+.)
Total Assets - $1,800,000
Chance of ever running short of cash - 0%
Now, can someone tell me how doing the same old stuff is viable?
http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/Current/
You forgot two important things.
The 7 billion people involved in the debt markets dont share your outlook either.
Ok, I guess I'll try here...
First, I'd like to see where the return on all this "investment" is. Now, if you were going to a bank with a business plan, they'd like to know the percentage of return expected and in what time frame. I'm still waiting to hear that little nugget from ANYONE in the government. I'm sure all you "spend spend" cheerleaders have the answer, though.
Second. The "federal" reserve is in the business of making and controlling wealth. It is NOT the government. They are just another version of an old scam artist. I would not cite them as a credible source if you're looking to prove this system is plausible.
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Sin_of_Onin
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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Koneg posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Meanwhile the problem will likely be blamed on things like social programs which are present in both nations and is a largely immaterial issue to the crisis.
Right, because spending way more money then you take in has absolutely no effect on your debt burden.
lol, you are stupid. Please try and keep up.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Friarspam posted:
Ok, I guess I'll try here...
First, I'd like to see where the return on all this "investment" is. Now, if you were going to a bank with a business plan, they'd like to know the percentage of return expected and in what time frame. I'm still waiting to hear that little nugget from ANYONE in the government. I'm sure all you "spend spend" cheerleaders have the answer, though.
Second. The "federal" reserve is in the business of making and controlling wealth. It is NOT the government. They are just another version of an old scam artist. I would not cite them as a credible source if you're looking to prove this system is plausible.
Actually one way the government tries to encourage investment is to borrow instead of tax based on their capacity to borrow money at low rates. The revenue side of the government equation has favored borrowing over taxation since Reagan started the trend in the 80s.
It probably would have worked better if the US didn't also try and carry hundreds of billions in trade deficit every year for decades.
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smellymotor
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NuEM posted:
That you can't have a financial union without also having a political, economical and social union.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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theredkay1 posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Digging a hole of 50... 90... 120% of your GDP is suicidal.
The plethora of countries with high debt/GDP ratios and low interest rates should impact your opinion. The actual world just doesnt agree with you.
 Hello? Reality calling.
A plethora of irresponsible governments burying to the hilt and praying  nothing negative happens to disrupt their little folly has put us into a global recession/depression.
Prayer is not a responsible fiscal policy.
PS: If you're thinking of breeding... please don't.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Hello? Reality calling.
A plethora of irresponsible governments burying to the hilt and praying nothing negative happens to disrupt their little folly has put us into a global recession/depression.
Prayer is not a responsible fiscal policy.
PS: If you're thinking of breeding... please don't.
Reality is actually significantly different. It is not simply debt that is driving the crisis but the erosion of production and the inability of the local economy to correct for it due to the impact of how they interact with other economies and nations.
I know any issue that is more complicated than yes or no is beyond you but I can hope.
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theredkay1
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
theredkay1 posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Digging a hole of 50... 90... 120% of your GDP is suicidal.
The plethora of countries with high debt/GDP ratios and low interest rates should impact your opinion. The actual world just doesnt agree with you.
Hello? Reality calling.
Oh...so you are going to talk about actual real world events? This is a change.
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
A plethora of irresponsible governments burying to the hilt and praying nothing negative happens to disrupt their little folly has put us into a global recession/depression.
Oh...I guess not. Just more speechifying about the immorality of debtors.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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A government without debt renders themselves invulnerable to attacks, criticism, undue influence or manipulation of their policies vis a vis government debt.
Fact.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
A government without debt renders themselves invulnerable to attacks, criticism, undue influence or manipulation of their policies vis a vis government debt.
Fact.
Which is basically meaningless.
Congratulations on being an idiot.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
A government without debt renders themselves invulnerable to attacks, criticism, undue influence or manipulation of their policies vis a vis government debt.
Fact.
Which is basically meaningless.
Only to you and the Goldfish Brigade.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
but but but if our government has debt people can criticize that debt. OH NO!
AA you are hopeless.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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And round and round we go...
Anyone got a mulberry bush handy?
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dae_trist
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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Friarspam posted:
Here is a stupid example of why the US is in deep crap that a stupid friend sent me.
* U.S. Tax revenue: $2,170,000,000,000
* Fed budget: $3,820,000,000,000
* New debt: $ 1,650,000,000,000
* National debt: $14,271,000,000,000
* Recent budget cuts: $ 38,500,000,000
* Total national net worth: $60,000,000,000,000
It's hard to keep track of all those zeros, so let's remove 8 of them and pretend it's a household budget:
* Annual family income: $21,700
* Money the family spent: $38,200
* New debt on the credit card: $16,500
* Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710
* Total budget cuts: $385.. (Doesn't even come close to covering the interest on the debt of $5,000+.)
* Total home value and assets: $600,000
Now, can someone tell me how doing the same old stuff is viable?
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Sin_of_Onin
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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There is no round and round, there is just reality and your distorted world view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_public_debt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate
Compare Spain and Germany and get back to me. Find other measurements if you must.
The facts support my position and not yours.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
I R Xpert!
<wikipedia linkage>
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Sin_of_Onin
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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Are you denying the fact that spain has a lower debt to GDP ratio than Germany and significantly higher unemployment?
You can confirm this fact any way you choose but the fact remains.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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How does any of this drivel contradict what I said?
The differing degrees to which cancer patients feel pain or have their freedom-of-choice and range-of-motion limited doesn't concern my statement. They're still both cancer patients with a self-inflicted cancer and compromised immunity, foolishly daring the next virus to come along and stomp them.
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In the immortal words of Socrates - "I drank what?"
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Sin_of_Onin
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
How does any of this drivel contradict what I said?
The differing degrees to which cancer patients feel pain or have their freedom-of-choice and range-of-motion limited doesn't concern my statement. They're still both cancer patients with a self-inflicted cancer and compromised immunity, foolishly daring the next virus to come along and stomp them.
I am sorry I was expecting that your argument was somehow tied to facts and not just the emo BS you kept spewing.
Carry on.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Somehow you imagine what you're posting merits "argument"?
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Sin_of_Onin
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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I am not under the impression you are capable of forming one.
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imaloon1
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The problem is that a long time ago sovereign currency gave way to fiat currency.
Anything else is just window dressing on a failed argument
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Sin_of_Onin
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imaloon1 posted:
The problem is that a long time ago sovereign currency gave way to fiat currency.
Anything else is just window dressing on a failed argument
There is a history of problems associated with gold backed currencies as well. One of the most powerful weapons at the disposal of Europe during the age of imperialism was mercantilism.
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theredkay1
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Without electricity there can be no electrocutions. Back to the stone ages!
FACT!
"I am terrified of debt" just isnt the winning argument against debt that you think it is.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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There's no sane stance you can take which denies my factual statement.
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Sin_of_Onin
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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theredkay1 posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Without electricity there can be no electrocutions. Back to the stone ages!
FACT!
"I am terrified of debt" just isnt the winning argument against debt that you think it is.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
There's no sane stance you can take which denies my factual statement.
Therefore...
you guys are...
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Sin_of_Onin
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The only factual statement you presented was meaningless drivel.
The factual nature of the statement was never in question.
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theredkay1
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What is the lesson of the Eurozone crisis?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
There's no sane stance you can take which denies my factual statement.
Nobody is denying it.
A country that has no water wont have to worry about drownings! A planet without oxygen wont have to worry about house fires!
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Crippling oneself and one's people with ongoing massive debt -- beyond short-term debt which you can easily rotate in 1-3 years -- is a self-destructive choice.
Water and air are not choices.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Crippling oneself and one's people with ongoing massive debt -- beyond short-term debt which you can easily rotate in 1-3 years -- is a self-destructive choice.
Water and air are not choices.
Your post stinks of circular logic and emo BS but you can try and save it by backing up your claim with specific mention of the 1-3 year rule.
As for the Eurozone crisis, I don't see how debt or social programs are the driver. To be clear I am arguing that debt is a major issue in the Eurozone but it is not a simple calculation of government debt but the nation's capital flow balance and how that impacts their production.
Spain has a lot of debt by the way but it isn't driven by government debt but private debt. Imagine that.
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__Bonk__
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I dont cheer when bad things happen in Europe. What happens there affects the US and Europe, all of it, is the US's cloest ally
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imaloon1
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
imaloon1 posted:
The problem is that a long time ago sovereign currency gave way to fiat currency.
Anything else is just window dressing on a failed argument
There is a history of problems associated with gold backed currencies as well. One of the most powerful weapons at the disposal of Europe during the age of imperialism was mercantilism.
I do not support a gold standard. Only the return to a non debt based currency system. Tally sticks would work just as well in my world view. They sufficed for nearly 700 years.
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Sin_of_Onin
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And what impact do you think that would have on the economy?
How would this tiddly wick currency work exactly?
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theredkay1
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Crippling oneself and one's people with ongoing massive debt -- beyond short-term debt which you can easily rotate in 1-3 years -- is a self-destructive choice.
Water and air are not choices.
You can certainly remove water and oxygen. Although usually we choose not to.
Certainly you can find examples of countries with debt in their own currency who self destructed.
This would be a very different conversation if the US had their debt in peso's and relied on the Central Bank of Mexico.
-----------
I have a checking account, a money market account and a brokerage account.
If I move $5,000 from checking into the money market account for 6 months with the plan to move it back into checking at the end of that term....have I crippled myself with debt? I dont think I have. But your understanding of national debt says so.
I owe myself $5,000. This is not a real bad situation. You are unable to view debt in the aggregate...you can only see it as if you owe the bank money. But thats not at all the situation with US debt.
For the most part, US taxpayers have lent the US government money. Eventually the US government will have to go to the US taxpayers to raise more money to pay back the US taxpayers. This gets all melty in your head....but its not the disaster situation you keep wanting it to be.
The debt may (and likely will) get passed on to a future generation of taxpayers, but the bond payments will also fall to a future generation of US taxpayers.
The ultimate trump card is the ability to create new dollars to pay back taxpayers. The negative consequence here is a fall in the value of the dollar....but the result of that is a large boost to US production and exports (and the associated job growth and wage growth)...so its not clear that the negative is really that bad.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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theredkay1 posted:
The ultimate trump card is the ability to create new dollars to pay back taxpayers...
Uhm... yyyyyyeah. Right.
I'm glad I'm a sight-reader so I didn't have to read that wall of stupid to pluck out this gem at first glance. Thereby saving myself the read.
As we've discussed. That shite works right up until you aren't one of the world's 2 or 3 superpowers. After that point, you're Zimbabwe, shunned, and probably invaded.
Waiter? Check, please. The stupid in this thread is getting overwhelming...
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