ikkoikki posted:

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Yeah well 98% of Christians aren't Christians at all, they're faux-Christians who only pretend to be Christians when its convenient but sin like crazy whenever the they fancy.

My work colleague never has sex, and has a girlfriend who he won't live with and won't have sex with until they're married. THAT'S a christian.

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ikkoikki posted:

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Good point, but as far as I'm aware, there is disagreement amongst theologians about whether or not one must actually follow the tenets of Christ to be Christian or whether simply accepting Christ as your savior is enough to qualify. After all, there are rapists and murderers in prisons right now who profess to be Christian. I don't consider them so.

There are warmongers, liars and thieves on Capitol Hill who say they're Christian but by their actions prove time and time again how un-Christian they are.

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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I figure, if there really is an omnipotent god, that he has created the ability to cure disease and protect reproductive health through the use of drugs. Since these things are designed to prolong life, they can't be of the Devil, which is all about destroying life.

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ikkoikki posted:

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Says who? Cuz I know Jesus has several quotes in the bible where he strongly suggests that actions alone will guarantee man a spot in heaven.

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Rhodoman posted:

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Christians can damn well buy their own contraceptives.

Rho

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Rhodoman posted:

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Christians can damn well buy their own contraceptives.

Rho

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JoAyanami posted:

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ikkoikki posted:

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Says who? Cuz I know Jesus has several quotes in the bible where he strongly suggests that actions alone will guarantee man a spot in heaven.

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Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.
-Jo

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levgre posted:

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. But in the case of contraception, you have a few higher ups in the church refusing basic medical access to the majority, both Christians and non-Christians alike.

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Brother_Tempus posted:

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levgre posted:

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. But in the case of contraception, you have a few higher ups in the church refusing basic medical access to the majority, both Christians and non-Christians alike.

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Now you know how most us feel about what government does when it suppresses our basic liberties

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Brother_Tempus posted:

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levgre posted:

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. But in the case of contraception, you have a few higher ups in the church refusing basic medical access to the majority, both Christians and non-Christians alike.

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Now you know how most us feel about what government does when it suppresses our basic liberties

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-Abysmal- posted:

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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I figure, if there really is an omnipotent god, that he has created the ability to cure disease and protect reproductive health through the use of drugs. Since these things are designed to prolong life, they can't be of the Devil, which is all about destroying life.

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yet many who have taken the wonder pill found themselves unable to conceive.

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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-Abysmal- posted:

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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I figure, if there really is an omnipotent god, that he has created the ability to cure disease and protect reproductive health through the use of drugs. Since these things are designed to prolong life, they can't be of the Devil, which is all about destroying life.

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yet many who have taken the wonder pill found themselves unable to conceive.

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there are many things that cause infertility, and secondary infertility as well. You still have to consider what is best for YOU in any case. Just because god says its ok to kill pain doesn't mean you should take an entire bottle of tylenol either.

contraception is not just a pill, it's many devices and drug options.

but still, you don't know that those people weren't already unable to conceive.

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-Abysmal- posted:

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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-Abysmal- posted:

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[quote=Jezza_Belle]I figure, if there really is an omnipotent god, that he has created the ability to cure disease and protect reproductive health through the use of drugs. Since these things are designed to prolong life, they can't be of the Devil, which is all about destroying life.

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yet many who have taken the wonder pill found themselves unable to conceive.

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there are many things that cause infertility, and secondary infertility as well. You still have to consider what is best for YOU in any case. Just because god says its ok to kill pain doesn't mean you should take an entire bottle of tylenol either.

contraception is not just a pill, it's many devices and drug options.

but still, you don't know that those people weren't already unable to conceive.

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ikkoikki posted:

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JoAyanami posted:

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ikkoikki posted:

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Says who? Cuz I know Jesus has several quotes in the bible where he strongly suggests that actions alone will guarantee man a spot in heaven.

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Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.
-Jo

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That's why I said there's disagreement amongst theologians, the bible apparently is unclear on the matter

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone," James 2:24

" . . . so also faith without works is dead," James 2:26

"In case some one of your brothers becomes poor among you in one of your cities, in your land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not harden your heart or be closefisted toward your poor brother. For you should generously open your hand to him and by all means lend him on pledge as much as he needs, which he is in want of... You should by all means give to him, and your heart should not be stingy in your giving to him, because on this account Jehovah your God will bless you in every deed of yours and in every undertaking of yours. For someone poor will never cease to be in the midst of the land. That is why I am commanding you, saying, 'You should generously open up your hand to your afflicted and poor brother in your land." Deuteronomy 15:7

"My brothers, what use is it for a man to say he has faith when he does nothing to show it? Can that faith save him? Suppose a brother or a sister is in rags with not enough food for the day, and one of you says, 'Good luck to you, keep yourselves warm, and have plenty to eat', but does nothing to supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So with faith; if it does not lead to action, it is in itself a lifeless thing." James 2:14

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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Like I said, they have to take personal responsibility for what is best for them.

if I put a drug in my body for 20 years and expect that it's not going to have any kind of side affect, I'd be effing stupid.

Now take into consideration how likely it is that those women who were on birth control for 10 or 20 years before they decided to start a family, were with just one person, or were they likely with multiple partners that could have easily given her HPV that affected her reproductive health? Since the HPV test is only recently been developed, and it's a disease that comes resolves itself on it's own in most cases. There might not be any trace of it by the time the woman decided to stop taking the pill and have a baby.

You see, 10 or 20 years is a long LONG time for lots of other things to go wrong that their contraception really had nothing to do with, but of course is blamed for it because they can't be personally responsible for their own actions.

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Burning_DT5 posted:

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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Like I said, they have to take personal responsibility for what is best for them.

if I put a drug in my body for 20 years and expect that it's not going to have any kind of side affect, I'd be effing stupid.

Now take into consideration how likely it is that those women who were on birth control for 10 or 20 years before they decided to start a family, were with just one person, or were they likely with multiple partners that could have easily given her HPV that affected her reproductive health? Since the HPV test is only recently been developed, and it's a disease that comes resolves itself on it's own in most cases. There might not be any trace of it by the time the woman decided to stop taking the pill and have a baby.

You see, 10 or 20 years is a long LONG time for lots of other things to go wrong that their contraception really had nothing to do with, but of course is blamed for it because they can't be personally responsible for their own actions.

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Timothy 2:12

I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet.

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JoAyanami posted:

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At any rate I'll leave it at that.
Dang work interfering with posting stuff
-Jo

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Mangler_SC posted:

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More harm has come from religion than anything else.

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ikkoikki posted:

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JoAyanami posted:

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At any rate I'll leave it at that.
Dang work interfering with posting stuff
-Jo

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Interesting stuff, I don't exactly agree with the overall message there but interesting anyway

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ikkoikki posted:

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Just wondering, but do you consider hypocrites to be true Christians?

I don't believe most Christians in this country actually are Christians. One the one hand they profess to be but on the other hand they do things such as support wars and support spending cuts that would directly hurt the poorest and most downtrodden amongst us. I believe to be Christian one must be Christ-like, which is very, very hard...which is why there are so few true Christians imo.

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levgre posted:

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The reasoning is a judgement by the Institute of Health, which states "...birth control is not just a convenience but is medically necessary “to ensure women’s health and well-being.”"

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ikkoikki posted:

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Just wondering, but do you consider hypocrites to be true Christians?

I don't believe most Christians in this country actually are Christians. One the one hand they profess to be but on the other hand they do things such as support wars and support spending cuts that would directly hurt the poorest and most downtrodden amongst us. I believe to be Christian one must be Christ-like, which is very, very hard...which is why there are so few true Christians imo.

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Aerlinthian posted:

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levgre posted:

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The reasoning is a judgement by the Institute of Health, which states "...birth control is not just a convenience but is medically necessary “to ensure women’s health and well-being.”"

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So what happened between now and since primates first appeared on Earth?

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Rhodoman posted:

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COVERAGE denied.

These folks are whining because they can't get it for FREE.

Move along.

Rho

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Rhodoman posted:

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Christians can damn well buy their own contraceptives.

Rho

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levgre posted:

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Aerlinthian posted:

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levgre posted:

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The reasoning is a judgement by the Institute of Health, which states "...birth control is not just a convenience but is medically necessary “to ensure women’s health and well-being.”"

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So what happened between now and since primates first appeared on Earth?

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Primates didn't use toothbrushes or treat infections, either. Using even the 19th century as a measurement of what is "medically necessary" is retarded.

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AliHajiSheik posted:

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I like the idea that people who have a certain value actually behave in line with that value. I don't have to agree with it, though.

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Mangler_SC posted:

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More harm has come from religion than anything else.

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Brother_Tempus posted:

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Mangler_SC posted:

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More harm has come from religion than anything else.

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Government is worse ...

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Brother_Tempus posted:

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Mangler_SC posted:

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More harm has come from religion than anything else.

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Government is worse ...

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levgre posted:

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So Christians are going crazy because Hospitals, Schools, Colleges, etc. are being mandated to have their health insurance cover contraception, despite religious objections. The reasoning is a judgement by the Institute of Health, which states "...birth control is not just a convenience but is medically necessary “to ensure women’s health and well-being.”"

Yet 98% of sexually active Christians in the US use contraceptives, so who's religion exactly are they fighting for?

Not to mention Birth Control and other contraceptives are not only used to prevent unwanted births.

"One recent Georgetown law graduate, who asked not to be identified for reasons of medical privacy, said she had polycystic ovary syndrome, a condition for which her doctor prescribed birth control pills. She is gay and had no other reason to take the pills. Georgetown does not cover birth control for students, so she made sure her doctor noted the diagnosis on her prescription. Even so, coverage was denied several times. She finally gave up and paid out of pocket, more than $100 a month. After a few months she could no longer afford the pills. Within months she developed a large ovarian cyst that had to be removed surgically — along with her ovary."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/30/health/policy/law-fuels-contraception-controversy-on-catholic-campuses.html?_r=1

I could see not covering abortion because so many Christians are opposed to it. But in the case of contraception, you have a few higher ups in the church refusing basic medical access to the majority, both Christians and non-Christians alike.

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ikkoikki posted:

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Yeah well 98% of Christians aren't Christians at all, they're faux-Christians who only pretend to be Christians when its convenient but sin like crazy whenever the they fancy.

My work colleague never has sex, and has a girlfriend who he won't live with and won't have sex with until they're married. THAT'S a christian.

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levgre posted:

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Primates didn't use toothbrushes or treat infections, either. Using even the 19th century as a measurement of what is "medically necessary" is retarded.

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Aerlinthian posted:

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levgre posted:

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Primates didn't use toothbrushes or treat infections, either. Using even the 19th century as a measurement of what is "medically necessary" is retarded.

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What does that have to with birth control? Their statement doesn't make sense given the fact that only abstinence can guarantee no bodily fluid exchange. And again, how is it that for millions of years primates advanced their species to the point of being the dominate species on the planet without contraceptives if sex is so dangerous?

Here is the simple politically incorrect fact, contraceptives are a luxury. You can only elevate them to a requirement if the goal is causal sex on demand that is reduced risk of consequences. If you accept their claim that it is a medical necessity for women then the same rational holds up for men who have a requirement for sex for their health and well being.

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levgre posted:

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*[i]This post would like those scientists who developed the tech and theory and an early working model for the internet before it was confiscated and used by government

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Brother_Tempus posted:

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levgre posted:

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*[i]This post would like those scientists who developed the tech and theory and an early working model for the internet before it was confiscated and used by government

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Fixed for accuracy

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levgre posted:

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The Bible does not contain scripture which bans the use of birth control. Nor could the writers have foreseen and taken into account (effective) condoms and birth control pills back then.

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Genesis 38:9-10 posted:

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And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

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legged posted:

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It'samazing how much history I ignore because it make my argument irrelevant

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Brother_Tempus posted:

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levgre posted:

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. But in the case of contraception, you have a few higher ups in the church refusing basic medical access to the majority, both Christians and non-Christians alike.

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I whine on the internet from the comfort of my own home with benefits awarded to me from my voluntary service to the government I hate and try to compare the influence of the church with the enforceable law of the US government. I have time to make these illogical, sympathy-garnering statements because my candidate was predictably curbstomped AGAIN, so I am going to pass the next few years by editing posts and trolling people. Have I mentioned what a good investment gold is?

Reporting to you live from the place I hate but would never consider leaving,
BT.

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notmforce2k posted:

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Brother_Tempus posted:

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levgre posted:

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. But in the case of contraception, you have a few higher ups in the church refusing basic medical access to the majority, both Christians and non-Christians alike.

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I whine on the internet from the comfort of my own home with benefits awarded to me from my voluntary service to the government I hate and try to compare the influence of the church with the enforceable law of the US government. I have time to make these illogical, sympathy-garnering statements because my candidate was predictably curbstomped AGAIN, so I am going to pass the next few years by editing posts and trolling people. Have I mentioned what a good investment gold is?

Reporting to you live from the place I hate but would never consider leaving,
BT.

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ftfy.

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BritonGuy posted:

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Abstinence works though. You can't argue that. No sex, no babies or STDs.

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faefrost posted:

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I love how you all once again jump all over religion in general and Catholics in particular, and yet somehow still fail to grasp the key issue here.

Can the government exert a direct level of control by executive fiat that it is both clearly and directly forbidden to do by the constitution, and that the SCOTUS has expressly said they cannot do (in several unanimous decisions).

Whether or not contraception is a good idea is somewhat irrelevant. The key question is whether or not the government. In particular un-elected bureaucratic portions of it, can simply override the constitutional protections and the limits on government in support of a "good idea", without following the full legislative procedure and getting the states to ratify such changes

Remember, what they are seeking to change or bypass by regulatory fiat is the same constitutional protection that grants you your guaranteed freedom of speech. So what next? The department of Health and Human Services declares stupid people can no longer talk or post on the internet in order to protect the health of the rest of us. (studies have shown that stupid internet trolls lead to elevated blood pressure, which in turn leads to heart attacks. THESE DEADLY STUPID PEOPLE MUST BE STOPPED!)

In our system of government it requires that something be more that simply a good idea in order for it to be imposed on an individual or a group. There are protections and these protections cannot be violated in that way that this rule is seeking to do.

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jonus156 posted:

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BritonGuy posted:

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Abstinence works though. You can't argue that. No sex, no babies or STDs.

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but..... you mean....... i have to stop f****** thats unpossible Im supposed to "pray on the alter of marriage 3-4 times a week"
i.... i cant afford to pay for 20 kids Im not the duggers.

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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ikkoikki posted:

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Yeah well 98% of Christians aren't Christians at all, they're faux-Christians who only pretend to be Christians when its convenient but sin like crazy whenever the they fancy.

My work colleague never has sex, and has a girlfriend who he won't live with and won't have sex with until they're married. THAT'S a christian.

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you seem to have forgotten that Jesus died for our sins.

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jonus156 posted:

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BritonGuy posted:

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Abstinence works though. You can't argue that. No sex, no babies or STDs.

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but..... you mean....... i have to stop f****** thats unpossible Im supposed to "pray on the alter of marriage 3-4 times a week"
i.... i cant afford to pay for 20 kids Im not the duggers.

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rabbitslayer posted:

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99.999999997% of statistics are made up, the other 0.000000003% are just wrong

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