THE REPUBLICAN presidential candidates claim to abhor debt, yet propose tax cuts that would add trillions more.

Yes, trillions.

The case for continuing the George W. Bush tax cuts, at a cost of $3.7 trillion over 10 years (including interest), is shaky enough. The cuts for the wealthy alone, which President Obama would end, would cost with interest about $1 trillion over the next decade. But the GOP candidates want to continue all those cuts — and add many more, the vast bulk of which would again go to the wealthiest taxpayers.

Former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney proposes additional cuts that would drain $180 billion from the treasury in 2015 alone, according to calculations by the Urban Institute-Brookings Institution Tax Policy Center. The nonpartisan center has not calculated the 10-year cost of the plan. But merely multiplying by 10 illustrates that Romney is talking trillions.

And Mr. Romney’s is the most modest of the GOP proposals. Former House speaker Newt Gingrich’s plan would cost an astonishing $850 billion in 2015 on top of the Bush tax cuts. Former Pennsylvania senator Rick Santorum’s would cost $900 billion in 2015 alone.

Cawlin posted:

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Are you trying to say that you don't think there are $370bn/year in legit spending cuts possible from our present budget? That's about 10% of the budget.

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Cawlin posted:

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What's funny is how hard libs bite on terribly skewed article titles and articles like the one in the OP.

What's funny is how liberals don't get the concept that failing to tax someone is not the same as spending more money.

There are a lot of funny things about the whole budget issue, from both parties. There are a lot more funny (and by funny I mean blindingly stupidly fcuking absurd) things that partisan douches try to make into arguments about it.

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Cawlin posted:

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For the record, tax cuts don't drain the treasury. SPENDING does.

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ineenia posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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For the record, tax cuts don't drain the treasury. SPENDING does.

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For the record,ignorance doesn't produce statements like that,STUPID does.

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Cawlin posted:

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For the record, tax cuts don't drain the treasury. SPENDING does.

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Cawlin posted:

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Are you trying to say that you don't think there are $370bn/year in legit spending cuts possible from our present budget? That's about 10% of the budget.

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GrilledCheez posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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Are you trying to say that you don't think there are $370bn/year in legit spending cuts possible from our present budget? That's about 10% of the budget.

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republicans spent more each year than they did the year before when they controlled everything. You are either making a specious argument or are a complete retard. You can choose.

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Cawlin posted:

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GrilledCheez posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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Are you trying to say that you don't think there are $370bn/year in legit spending cuts possible from our present budget? That's about 10% of the budget.

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republicans spent more each year than they did the year before when they controlled everything. You are either making a specious argument or are a complete retard. You can choose.

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No, you just can't see past the partisanship and stupidity of the statements made in the article.

Libs are bitching for more taxes when they (AND EVERY OTHER AMERICAN) should be bitching for LESS government spending.

It's laughably transparent the vindictiveness of some of you when it comes to these topics.

There is almost as much money in the budget for "discretionary" spending as there is for defense spending and defense spending is beyond absurdly ridiculously high.

Tell the truth, do you really think that if the government has more tax dollars from "the rich" that they will put some more money into your pockets or do you think that the government will simply find more pork to spend it on?

Don't be willfully ignorant about this GC because you think you're making a point by doing so. The only point you're making is that you're a jackass.

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Groucho48 posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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For the record, tax cuts don't drain the treasury. SPENDING does.

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They both do.

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cabbyman posted:

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Bush hasn't been President for over 3 years.

These are the Obama tax cuts now!

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paulg_68 posted:

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Groucho48 posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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For the record, tax cuts don't drain the treasury. SPENDING does.

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They both do.

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Walk me through it. You've got money in the treasury. Then you cut taxes.

How does that result in there being less money in the treasury without spending?

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Groucho48 posted:

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keep the same budget

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paulg_68 posted:

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Groucho48 posted:

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keep the same budget

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Like the man said, it's spending that drains the treasury. Cutting taxes didn't result in one single dollar removed.

There would be no deficits if I was in charge. Of course I wouldn't cut taxes either until there was a budget surplus because I do care about deficits. Libtards though will take every tax increase and just increase spending by twice as much.

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Elkad posted:

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LOL. Stop with the 10year plan crap. Especially since the cuts are always projected to get bigger at the end, and never happens.

It's 370billion a year. We need to cut about 5x that just to break even.

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Elkad posted:

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LOL. Stop with the 10year plan crap. Especially since the cuts are always projected to get bigger at the end, and never happens.

It's 370billion a year. We need to cut about 5x that just to break even.

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Ptilk posted:

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Liberals like to cut spending just as much as conservatives do. They just like to cut different things. No liberal I know wants to tax everyone down to poverty. That's just stupid. Many of us do want higher taxes though...on everyone, not just the rich. Many of us also want a uniform corporate tax rate that has no loopholes and no deductions.

A simple progressive tax code with zero exemptions and zero caps and no different rates based upon marital status for individuals would be a great step for getting our economic system back in order.

There are literally thousands of government programs that should be eliminated. Food stamps, EITC, the vast majority of the standing military, our current public education system, medicare and medicaid, all those state and local programs for childrens health insurance, welfare and housing vouchers, DEA, ICE, CIA, most of the criminal justice system, the list is almost endless.

Of course, when many of the above are eliminated, something else will have to be created to take it's place. All the health and medical programs replaced with single payer, public education system with one that is more uniform and funded differently, most federal law enforcement and criminal justice consolidated and much, much smaller....but more efficient systems will save tons of money, as well as providing a better service for that money.

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Ptilk posted:

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Liberals like to cut spending just as much as conservatives do. They just like to cut different things. No liberal I know wants to tax everyone down to poverty. That's just stupid. Many of us do want higher taxes though...on everyone, not just the rich. Many of us also want a uniform corporate tax rate that has no loopholes and no deductions.

A simple progressive tax code with zero exemptions and zero caps and no different rates based upon marital status for individuals would be a great step for getting our economic system back in order.

There are literally thousands of government programs that should be eliminated. Food stamps, EITC, the vast majority of the standing military, our current public education system, medicare and medicaid, all those state and local programs for childrens health insurance, welfare and housing vouchers, DEA, ICE, CIA, most of the criminal justice system, the list is almost endless.

Of course, when many of the above are eliminated, something else will have to be created to take it's place. All the health and medical programs replaced with single payer, public education system with one that is more uniform and funded differently, most federal law enforcement and criminal justice consolidated and much, much smaller....but more efficient systems will save tons of money, as well as providing a better service for that money.

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Cawlin posted:

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Ptilk posted:

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Liberals like to cut spending just as much as conservatives do. They just like to cut different things. No liberal I know wants to tax everyone down to poverty. That's just stupid. Many of us do want higher taxes though...on everyone, not just the rich. Many of us also want a uniform corporate tax rate that has no loopholes and no deductions.

A simple progressive tax code with zero exemptions and zero caps and no different rates based upon marital status for individuals would be a great step for getting our economic system back in order.

There are literally thousands of government programs that should be eliminated. Food stamps, EITC, the vast majority of the standing military, our current public education system, medicare and medicaid, all those state and local programs for childrens health insurance, welfare and housing vouchers, DEA, ICE, CIA, most of the criminal justice system, the list is almost endless.

Of course, when many of the above are eliminated, something else will have to be created to take it's place. All the health and medical programs replaced with single payer, public education system with one that is more uniform and funded differently, most federal law enforcement and criminal justice consolidated and much, much smaller....but more efficient systems will save tons of money, as well as providing a better service for that money.

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Like I said in another thread:

we need a reboot.

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SoBaKi posted:

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In other words, meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

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SoBaKi posted:

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Ptilk posted:

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Liberals like to cut spending just as much as conservatives do. They just like to cut different things. No liberal I know wants to tax everyone down to poverty. That's just stupid. Many of us do want higher taxes though...on everyone, not just the rich. Many of us also want a uniform corporate tax rate that has no loopholes and no deductions.

A simple progressive tax code with zero exemptions and zero caps and no different rates based upon marital status for individuals would be a great step for getting our economic system back in order.

There are literally thousands of government programs that should be eliminated. Food stamps, EITC, the vast majority of the standing military, our current public education system, medicare and medicaid, all those state and local programs for childrens health insurance, welfare and housing vouchers, DEA, ICE, CIA, most of the criminal justice system, the list is almost endless.

Of course, when many of the above are eliminated, something else will have to be created to take it's place. All the health and medical programs replaced with single payer, public education system with one that is more uniform and funded differently, most federal law enforcement and criminal justice consolidated and much, much smaller....but more efficient systems will save tons of money, as well as providing a better service for that money.

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Wait...what?

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theredkay1 posted:

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Its always amazing to watch the mental gymnastics the right tries to pull when this topic comes up.

Does anyone look at their own household budget and insist that their income doesnt affect the balance?

If the government collects money and then turns around and mails out checks to people....thats budget busting spending!

But if the government decides to save time and effort and tells people to just send in less.....thats totally different and doesnt affect the budget.

Welfare = drains the treasury
EITC = no impact

Section 8 housing = drains the treasury
mortgage interest deduction = no impact

medicaid = drains the treasury
medical insurance/spending tax deductions = no impact

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Cawlin posted:

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Meanwhile, if you want to stick to the analogy, the government is NOT telling us about cuts to its spending. One party is telling us about cuts it wants to make to taxes, while the other party is telling us about increases it wants to make to taxes... conspicuously absent is a discussion of spending cuts. That is the very definition of fiscally irresponsible behavior.

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Cawlin posted:

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Ptilk posted:

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Liberals like to cut spending just as much as conservatives do. They just like to cut different things. No liberal I know wants to tax everyone down to poverty. That's just stupid. Many of us do want higher taxes though...on everyone, not just the rich. Many of us also want a uniform corporate tax rate that has no loopholes and no deductions.

A simple progressive tax code with zero exemptions and zero caps and no different rates based upon marital status for individuals would be a great step for getting our economic system back in order.

There are literally thousands of government programs that should be eliminated. Food stamps, EITC, the vast majority of the standing military, our current public education system, medicare and medicaid, all those state and local programs for childrens health insurance, welfare and housing vouchers, DEA, ICE, CIA, most of the criminal justice system, the list is almost endless.

Of course, when many of the above are eliminated, something else will have to be created to take it's place. All the health and medical programs replaced with single payer, public education system with one that is more uniform and funded differently, most federal law enforcement and criminal justice consolidated and much, much smaller....but more efficient systems will save tons of money, as well as providing a better service for that money.

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Like I said in another thread:

we need a reboot.

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Scarne posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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Meanwhile, if you want to stick to the analogy, the government is NOT telling us about cuts to its spending. One party is telling us about cuts it wants to make to taxes, while the other party is telling us about increases it wants to make to taxes... conspicuously absent is a discussion of spending cuts. That is the very definition of fiscally irresponsible behavior.

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Except the article is about tax cuts, not spending increases.

So from your example, if you have income of $5000 and expenses of $6000, you want the course of action to be to decrease your income to $4000.

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Rosaria posted:

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Instead we will get a choice between Romeny and Obama. Oh my effing God, they're so different!!1 On the one hand you have liberals crying and pissing that Obama is center right, too conservative, and gives in to Republicans yet on the other hand they can't wait to vote for him. My conclusion is that liberals are the effing conservatives they keep whining about.

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Cawlin posted:

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If you're income is already maxed, then you must cut expenses.

When your expenses outstrip your earnings and you're going into debt, a private citizen rarely has the option to just simply "increase their income" - ESPECIALLY in the current economy. We cannot typically go to our bosses and demand a raise. Your typical private citizen MUST cut their expenses.

Private citizens are admonished to be fiscally responsible and to examine their expenses and to live within their means and that debt is to be managed with the utmost of care.

Meanwhile, how is our government acting?

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Cawlin posted:

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Meanwhile, if you want to stick to the analogy, the government is NOT telling us about cuts to its spending. One party is telling us about cuts it wants to make to taxes, while the other party is telling us about increases it wants to make to taxes... conspicuously absent is a discussion of spending cuts. That is the very definition of fiscally irresponsible behavior.

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theredkay1 posted:

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Spending cuts are at the front of the conversation in both parties.

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paulg_68 posted:

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theredkay1 posted:

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Spending cuts are at the front of the conversation in both parties.

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Yes, you've got the Republicans saying we should do it even though they won't, and we have the Democrats saying if we cut even a little it will cause Armageddon.

That's not really a useful conversation.

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theredkay1 posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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If you're income is already maxed, then you must cut expenses.

When your expenses outstrip your earnings and you're going into debt, a private citizen rarely has the option to just simply "increase their income" - ESPECIALLY in the current economy. We cannot typically go to our bosses and demand a raise. Your typical private citizen MUST cut their expenses.

Private citizens are admonished to be fiscally responsible and to examine their expenses and to live within their means and that debt is to be managed with the utmost of care.

Meanwhile, how is our government acting?

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Most of the time private citizens can increase their income with a second job.

The government does not face the same income limitations that private citizens do, especially in a low tax country like the US. There is zero reason to think that the federal govt's income is maxed out.

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theredkay1 posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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Meanwhile, if you want to stick to the analogy, the government is NOT telling us about cuts to its spending. One party is telling us about cuts it wants to make to taxes, while the other party is telling us about increases it wants to make to taxes... conspicuously absent is a discussion of spending cuts. That is the very definition of fiscally irresponsible behavior.

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Spending cuts are at the front of the conversation in both parties. Im not sure how you have missed it.

The US is a very low tax country. It spends almost all of its money on military and health care. If you are talking about spending cuts outside of those two areas, you are mostly wasting everyone time.

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Cawlin posted:

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The government's income comes from the private citizens. If the private citizens are to pay the government more, you seem to be advocating that those of us who can and do work, should get a second job so that we can work more to afford to pay more to the government.

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Cawlin posted:

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Cut spending first. Earn Americans' trust that you can be fiscally responsible again, THEN we can talk about changing tax revenues.

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