Hyperimiator
Title: Maximus Probus
Posts:
55,497
Registered:
Jul 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 54,624
User ID: 266,347
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
|
I have a sibling that I think is ready for a forced stay to get herself together, any advice from the real world?
-----signature-----
The Hyperimiator song http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=1639&starttime=1:40:35 "You are never going to be able to vote for the revolution. Get that hope out of your mind" -Jerry Rubin http://www.youtube.com/user/Hyperimiator#p/u
|
|
Link to this post
|
Fallen_daemon
Posts:
54,593
Registered:
Jul 28, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 53,783
User ID: 285,476
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
|
in nyc i think you need two friends or family and a doctor to get them committed.
-----signature-----
Fight white guilt and injustice by going to a Native American casino and gamble your money away. me pic http://acf.curbjaw.com/armchair.htm Formerly known as :armchair warrior, sysphus, fallen_deamon http://www.facebook.com/help/contact.php?show_form
|
|
Link to this post
|
RavofMT
Posts:
3,034
Registered:
May 24, '08
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 3,018
User ID: 1,300,167
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
|
You think or the Family/Friends?
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Hyperimiator
Title: Maximus Probus
Posts:
55,497
Registered:
Jul 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 54,624
User ID: 266,347
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
|
Husband is going divorce route, sibling is potentially suicidal.
-----signature-----
The Hyperimiator song http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=1639&starttime=1:40:35 "You are never going to be able to vote for the revolution. Get that hope out of your mind" -Jerry Rubin http://www.youtube.com/user/Hyperimiator#p/u
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
|
Hook her up with an ACFer, she'll feel better
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
RavofMT
Posts:
3,034
Registered:
May 24, '08
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 3,018
User ID: 1,300,167
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
|
to me it would be kinda harsh for the sibling. first a divorce then family thinks your nuts?
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
purplehugmonkey
Posts:
12,787
Registered:
May 16, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 12,662
User ID: 1,049,746
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
It's state law regulated so you will need to look up the laws for your state. It will vary based on the type of illness that she has and probably with what kind of medical history she has on record. If it is a public state hospital rather than private it will also be affected by the amount of state funding and available space.
In a lot of states they have to at least pass the "poses imminent harm to self or others" test and/or have a police report filed based on such behavior already.
-----signature-----
College women are as unstable as free radicals. Thanks college.
-Anebriated
He was a jedi before he was a father and everyone knows how much jedi love to chop off hands.
-Kigaro
|
|
Link to this post
|
Tipztoe
Posts:
26,665
Registered:
Mar 1, '04
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 23,788
User ID: 900,300
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
definitely commit her instead of offering her to stay at your place.
same as the dog.. it crapped, kill it.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Hyperimiator
Title: Maximus Probus
Posts:
55,497
Registered:
Jul 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 54,624
User ID: 266,347
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
Tipztoe posted:
definitely commit her instead of offering her to stay at your place.
same as the dog.. it crapped, kill it.
So what is your problem, maybe I can help?
-----signature-----
The Hyperimiator song http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=1639&starttime=1:40:35 "You are never going to be able to vote for the revolution. Get that hope out of your mind" -Jerry Rubin http://www.youtube.com/user/Hyperimiator#p/u
|
|
Link to this post
|
Tipztoe
Posts:
26,665
Registered:
Mar 1, '04
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 23,788
User ID: 900,300
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
Hyperimiator posted:
Tipztoe posted:
definitely commit her instead of offering her to stay at your place.
same as the dog.. it crapped, kill it.
So what is your problem, maybe I can help?
sounds like you should be offering this "help" to your blood.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Hyperimiator
Title: Maximus Probus
Posts:
55,497
Registered:
Jul 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 54,624
User ID: 266,347
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
|
sound like you can't read, and just want to be a jerk
-----signature-----
The Hyperimiator song http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=1639&starttime=1:40:35 "You are never going to be able to vote for the revolution. Get that hope out of your mind" -Jerry Rubin http://www.youtube.com/user/Hyperimiator#p/u
|
|
Link to this post
|
Tipztoe
Posts:
26,665
Registered:
Mar 1, '04
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 23,788
User ID: 900,300
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
it sounds like you're someone who doesn't want to help his family.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Hyperimiator
Title: Maximus Probus
Posts:
55,497
Registered:
Jul 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 54,624
User ID: 266,347
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
I already moved my Mother into my house, any other questions, maybe I should let her off herself, huh is that what you want to hear?
I am concerned which is why I am 5000 miles from home, looking into it.
-----signature-----
The Hyperimiator song http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=1639&starttime=1:40:35 "You are never going to be able to vote for the revolution. Get that hope out of your mind" -Jerry Rubin http://www.youtube.com/user/Hyperimiator#p/u
|
|
Link to this post
|
Tipztoe
Posts:
26,665
Registered:
Mar 1, '04
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 23,788
User ID: 900,300
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
Hyperimiator posted:
I already moved my Mother into my house, any other questions, maybe I should let her off herself, huh is that what you want to hear?
I am concerned which is why I am 5000 miles from home, looking into it.
so from 5k away, you feel you can make an informed decision to have her committed because her husband wants a divorce.
who doesn't feel like crap in that situation
much easier to commit her then help her
One night I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord.
Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky.
In each scene I noticed footprints in the sand.
Sometimes there were two sets of footprints,
other times there were one set of footprints.
This bothered me because I noticed
that during the low periods of my life,
when I was suffering from
anguish, sorrow or defeat,
I could see only one set of footprints.
So I said to the Lord,
"You promised me Lord,
that if I followed you,
you would walk with me always.
But I have noticed that during
the most trying periods of my life
there have only been one
set of footprints in the sand.
Why, when I needed you most,
you have not been there for me?"
The Lord replied,
"The times when you have
seen only one set of footprints,
is when I carried you."
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Hyperimiator
Title: Maximus Probus
Posts:
55,497
Registered:
Jul 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 54,624
User ID: 266,347
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
I just left their house. She has stated het intent. They have children.
It is pretty ugly over there, I am not going into details with you, for you obviously have your own problems as evidenced by your lack of reading comprehension.
-----signature-----
The Hyperimiator song http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=1639&starttime=1:40:35 "You are never going to be able to vote for the revolution. Get that hope out of your mind" -Jerry Rubin http://www.youtube.com/user/Hyperimiator#p/u
|
|
Link to this post
|
-Darkfire-
Posts:
28,927
Registered:
Apr 21, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 27,982
User ID: 670,830
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
|
5150 her
-----signature-----
|
|
Link to this post
|
purplehugmonkey
Posts:
12,787
Registered:
May 16, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 12,662
User ID: 1,049,746
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
If she's stated an intention to take her own life you can probably call the police and request to file a report for records purposes in order to begin the involuntary committment process, if that is what you want to do.
I have participated in the process several times, so I will say be prepared for her to hate you and possibly hold a grudge for years(assuming she hasn't been hospitalized before and in the system, then it might be less of a big betrayal to her). It may not even start until she has stabilized and wants out, but has trouble because she'll have to wait on a psychiatrist opinion(complete with liability) to let her leave. It's still the right thing to do if she is a danger to herself, preferably with the majority of the drama out of the children's earshot.
Sorry to hear it.
-----signature-----
College women are as unstable as free radicals. Thanks college.
-Anebriated
He was a jedi before he was a father and everyone knows how much jedi love to chop off hands.
-Kigaro
|
|
Link to this post
|
Hyperimiator
Title: Maximus Probus
Posts:
55,497
Registered:
Jul 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 54,624
User ID: 266,347
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
That is what I am worried about, she told her 11 year old daughter that when she kills herself it will be her fault.
She is mommie dearest with her oldest, the 11 year old, and now her daughter has a whole host of mental problems herself, though she is a very bright kid, and I think young enough to recover from them.
I have already told her husband, my brother in law, that I would support whatever he decides, the kids can be salvaged my sister I am afraid is a lost soul. She is just like my father, her unresolved issues have morphed to her now being a huge ogre to her kids.
I am considering all this over the sake of the kids, but man it is hard, I only have one sister and we were very tight as kids.
I am going to send my Mom back here to see her for herself, I think my Mom (a nutcase in her own right) needs to be in on this too.
I can't wait to get back on that plane to Hawaii in 10 hours or so.
I can't stand the insanity anymore.
-----signature-----
The Hyperimiator song http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=1639&starttime=1:40:35 "You are never going to be able to vote for the revolution. Get that hope out of your mind" -Jerry Rubin http://www.youtube.com/user/Hyperimiator#p/u
|
|
Link to this post
|
FineYoungCannibals
Title: Top of the food chain
Posts:
74,939
Registered:
Jul 14, '03
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 73,108
User ID: 822,330
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
Hyperimiator posted:
she told her 11 year old daughter that when she kills herself it will be her fault.
wow
just wow
-----signature-----
 FYC
|
|
Link to this post
|
Caoilin
Title: Instigator
Posts:
56,728
Registered:
Nov 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 54,027
User ID: 513,313
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
|
death is better than what happens to you when you're put on a psychiatric hold. esp if they, for no reason most of the time, feel that you need to be strapped down to the bed.
-----signature-----
"Cao is really an asexual cricket from outer space" - Bernion
"I just wish you had man bits" - ShalisR
"i'll be your dirty ignorant redneck if you will be my drugged out cripple bitch" - shaggynuts24
"again, I'm stupid" - Brandun
|
|
Link to this post
|
FunTak
Posts:
19,779
Registered:
Jan 29, '03
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 19,258
User ID: 764,614
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
Heres what you do. Call the precinct local to her and explain the situation. The police will do a well check. If they feel she is an EDP they will have her txp'ed to a hospital and the doctors there will take it into their own hands.
In NY (including NYC) all it takes is 2 doctors signatures (2PC) to have someone forcibly taken into psychiatric care.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Hyperimiator
Title: Maximus Probus
Posts:
55,497
Registered:
Jul 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 54,624
User ID: 266,347
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
I am not making this decision. I can't do it to her, though I am begging her so seek some help and offered to take her daugther to Hawaii with me to live with me and my Mom, at least for the summer.
She wants the daughter to be punished and put into a military school.
The girl is an A student and ver active, she also reads about 300 books a year, (since she harldy ever allowed to watch television).
My sister is on her case from the moment she wakes up till she goes to bed, it is a livnig hell.
I had a lot of talks with the daughter to help her cope with her nutcase Mom (my sister) all week.
I hope it helps, I know some of it got to her.
If nothing changes I see some bloddy violence up ahead between them.
-----signature-----
The Hyperimiator song http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=1639&starttime=1:40:35 "You are never going to be able to vote for the revolution. Get that hope out of your mind" -Jerry Rubin http://www.youtube.com/user/Hyperimiator#p/u
|
|
Link to this post
|
FineYoungCannibals
Title: Top of the food chain
Posts:
74,939
Registered:
Jul 14, '03
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 73,108
User ID: 822,330
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
i have to ask
is she hot? the sister
-----signature-----
FYC
|
|
Link to this post
|
Hyperimiator
Title: Maximus Probus
Posts:
55,497
Registered:
Jul 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 54,624
User ID: 266,347
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
|
I need to take a few pills to get some rest or I will be a basket case during my all day travels to Hawaii in 10 hours or so.
-----signature-----
The Hyperimiator song http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=1639&starttime=1:40:35 "You are never going to be able to vote for the revolution. Get that hope out of your mind" -Jerry Rubin http://www.youtube.com/user/Hyperimiator#p/u
|
|
Link to this post
|
purplehugmonkey
Posts:
12,787
Registered:
May 16, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 12,662
User ID: 1,049,746
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
Hyperimiator posted:
she told her 11 year old daughter that when she kills herself it will be her fault.
Oh, well that's pleasant. But then it's not a real vacation to a merciful death without leaving your child tormented with a lifetime of guilt, I suppose.
The interesting thing about seeing high dysfunction in its natural habitat is how easy it is to forget quite how much of it doesn't live with you at your house until you encounter it again at someone else's.
-----signature-----
College women are as unstable as free radicals. Thanks college.
-Anebriated
He was a jedi before he was a father and everyone knows how much jedi love to chop off hands.
-Kigaro
|
|
Link to this post
|
FineYoungCannibals
Title: Top of the food chain
Posts:
74,939
Registered:
Jul 14, '03
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 73,108
User ID: 822,330
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
|
hook her up with Ptilk
-----signature-----
FYC
|
|
Link to this post
|
Hyperimiator
Title: Maximus Probus
Posts:
55,497
Registered:
Jul 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 54,624
User ID: 266,347
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
FineYoungCannibals posted:
i have to ask
is she hot?
She was the American Express model in Europe when she lived in Vienna, she looks like the woman that was the wife of the king in the 300 movie.
I think she has the Spartan disease, always in a simmering state of rage.
My father had it, and so did his mother, my only memory of my Grandmother is when I was 3 or 4 and she made me sit in a rocking chair for several hours, if I moved she hit me with a fly swatter.
The last time my Mom set foot in her house she threw her out and pushed her out the door and down a few steps (my Mom was 77 then)
I am serious about the Spartan disease, the people where I am from have this problem, they do nothing but fight with each other, and are descended from the last of the Spartans, she looks like my father and grandmother, while I look like my Mom and her father (not from the Mani).
from wikipedia...
The Maniots or Maniates (Greek: ?a???te?) are the Greek inhabitants of the Mani Peninsula (the middle leg of the Peloponnese south of Sparta) located in the southern Peloponnese in the Greek prefecture of Laconia and prefecture of Messinia. They were also formerly known as Mainotes and the peninsula as Maina. The Maniots are the direct descendants of the Spartans and through the Spartans the Dorians. The terrain is mountainous and inaccessible (until recently many Mani villages could be accessed only by sea), and the regional name "Mani" is thought to have meant originally "dry" or "barren." Etymologically, the name "Maniot" is a diminutive implying "of Mani". Geographically, the peninsula itself is an extension of the Taygetus mountain range. Throughout history, the Maniots have been known by their neighbors and their enemies as fierce warriors,proudly independent, who practice blood feuds - so fierce and savage, in fact, that they have been compared to the Nordic Berserkers. At times they were even referred to as the "super soldiers" of the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th and early to mid 19th centuries. Napoleon Bonaparte addressed to them as "Spartan descendants" and Theodoros Kolokotronis (leader of the Greek war of Independence) called them "The Spartans".
this is a pretty interesting read and it explains much... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniots
-----signature-----
The Hyperimiator song http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=1639&starttime=1:40:35 "You are never going to be able to vote for the revolution. Get that hope out of your mind" -Jerry Rubin http://www.youtube.com/user/Hyperimiator#p/u
|
|
Link to this post
|
-Foxy-
Title: Moderator
Ãœber Brat
Posts:
110,094
Registered:
May 29, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 107,357
User ID: 683,944
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
the father needs to get those kids away from her and this is the way to do it. she is giving him all the ammo he needs, i would think, by claiming she wants to kill herself and by the mental abuse to the kids.
-----signature-----
Long suffering vassal to Xarkath, U.P. - Forever and ever
|
|
Link to this post
|
lady_selene
Posts:
82
Registered:
Jun 22, '08
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 82
User ID: 1,305,501
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
|
Has she ever been checked for bipolar? my sister was a very rage filled person, to the point where family dinners at holidays generally had her going after at least one person with a knife because they irritated her, until she got diagnosed and on meds. I would definitely try and get the daughter away from her though, that is not a healthy environment, any mother that would say something like that to their child deserves to be horsewhipped, I don't care how bad your depression is!
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Cuttlery
Title: Wanna see what you missed?
Posts:
76,924
Registered:
Jan 9, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 72,785
User ID: 62,026
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
|
Tag for reference for my MIL.
-----signature-----
0.o
Bored and Useless
|
|
Link to this post
|
murron2
Title: Bloom where you are planted!
Posts:
18,309
Registered:
Jan 6, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 18,004
User ID: 595,429
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
-Foxy- posted:
the father needs to get those kids away from her and this is the way to do it. she is giving him all the ammo he needs, i would think, by claiming she wants to kill herself and by the mental abuse to the kids.
Agree 1000%! Does the Father WANT to take responsibility for the children or with this divorce in the works does he become 'free'? Not sure if he has expressed his intentions. In any case you and your family have my best thoughts and prayers Hyper. Truly...
~Murron~
-----signature-----
PEACE...
it means to be in the midst
of noise, trouble and strife
and still be calm
in your heart.
|
|
Link to this post
|
deadcactus
Posts:
38,266
Registered:
Dec 27, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 37,437
User ID: 577,555
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
Commitment is different from what you want.
If she is threatening to kill or hurt herself and you are concerned, call the police. The exact laws vary by state, but the police should have the right to detain her in some sort of protective custody for a day or two. They'll take her to the ED for medical clearance and then to a psychiatric facility to be evaluated. The psychiatric facility will take care of the paperwork to detain her as an in-patient if they feel it's needed after the evaluation.
I would push for getting her to seek care as an out-patient though. Psychiatric wards are not fun places for the relatively sane, but it is better than her hurting herself or her children...
-----signature-----
'member dat?
True dat.
|
|
Link to this post
|
BritonGuy
Title: Serious Business
Posts:
45,939
Registered:
Mar 4, '04
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 45,256
User ID: 901,272
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
Caoilin posted:
death is better than what happens to you when you're put on a psychiatric hold. esp if they, for no reason most of the time, feel that you need to be strapped down to the bed.
especially when the gremlins start crawling around on the ceiling and they won't do anything about it
-----signature-----
Briton Guy...persnickety...NEVER!  -Murron (truly) Hawkson is the greatest. -Hawkson Britonguy is usually right. -Onslaught on BT “Do or do not... there is no try.†- Yodazami Do you expect me to remember what I put in my mouth? -NSMachi
|
|
Link to this post
|
JD_HOGG
Posts:
19,975
Registered:
Mar 18, '08
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 19,893
User ID: 1,285,011
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
BritonGuy posted:
Caoilin posted:
death is better than what happens to you when you're put on a psychiatric hold. esp if they, for no reason most of the time, feel that you need to be strapped down to the bed.
especially when the gremlins start crawling around on the ceiling and they won't do anything about it
They told me that everything would be fine. Well it was NOT fine those gremlins stayed there all night and they stole my spork.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
-Accident-
Title: Waiting to happen
Posts:
16,541
Registered:
Aug 24, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 16,161
User ID: 41,169
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
murron2 posted:
-Foxy- posted:
the father needs to get those kids away from her and this is the way to do it. she is giving him all the ammo he needs, i would think, by claiming she wants to kill herself and by the mental abuse to the kids.
Agree 1000%! Does the Father WANT to take responsibility for the children or with this divorce in the works does he become 'free'? Not sure if he has expressed his intentions. In any case you and your family have my best thoughts and prayers Hyper. Truly...
~Murron~
I can't say better than this. My heart goes out to you and especially to those kids...they need to understand that whatever is wrong with their mother, this is no way their fault.
-----signature-----
I realize now I do not fear death. I fear my daughter will not be free when I die.
- NR, #iranelection
|
|
Link to this post
|
Hyperimiator
Title: Maximus Probus
Posts:
55,497
Registered:
Jul 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 54,624
User ID: 266,347
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
Dad only is looking at divorce as last resort and it is the treatment of his eldest daughter by my sister that has all of us worried.
He does not want out, he just wants his wife, my sister, to not be so damm insane.
She will not go therapy unless it is court ordered I am certain of that. If you just bring it up, she goes berserk.
-----signature-----
The Hyperimiator song http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=1639&starttime=1:40:35 "You are never going to be able to vote for the revolution. Get that hope out of your mind" -Jerry Rubin http://www.youtube.com/user/Hyperimiator#p/u
|
|
Link to this post
|
lady_selene
Posts:
82
Registered:
Jun 22, '08
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 82
User ID: 1,305,501
|
Subject:
Anyone ever had anyone committed?
|
|
As her husband he can probably have her involuntarily committed for a psych evaluation. I had to do it with my ex, its not fun for anyone involved but then neither is planning a funeral and explaining to the kids why their parent is dead.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
