GrilledCheez
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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The law isn't meant to protect criminals. FYI.
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Mag-Galahad
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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They can. Its called obtaining a warrant.
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PhillsburyBandit
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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And if they don't find anything illegal they can just plant something so you can be found guilty anyway!
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AzureTyger
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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GrilledCheez posted:
The law isn't meant to protect criminals. FYI.
Yes it is.
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Ptilk
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Anyone who thinks the "cops" are there to help or protect them...is a god damned mod idiot.
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Mastara
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Are you talking former criminals? Like random searches? Or just going to someones house and searching at random? This is a serious invasion of privacy.
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GrilledCheez
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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AzureTyger posted:
GrilledCheez posted:
The law isn't meant to protect criminals. FYI.
Yes it is.
No. The protections in criminal law are intended to protect those who would be unjustifiably detained, inconvenienced, or oppressed by the state.
But the thing that cracks me up here is when people get all mad that a criminal was caught due to a perceived procedural overstep by the state. Assuming they are actually criminals, why would you mind that the state overstepped if the only result was to catch a criminal? The reason I mind is because we can't reward the state for overstepping. because then they might overstep other times when they shouldn't. believing the person shouldn't have been caught or that they didn't deserve to be punished because of the overstep is retarded. And shows the kind of shallow thinking that causes most of our problems. For you to deserve to rule yourself you should have given sufficient thought to these issues not to look like an idiot.
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__Bonk__
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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The only thing would be a few links on my computer, browsing history, and probably stuff in my internet cache.
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the_great_intex
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Laws against having "illegal stuff" shouldn't exist anyways. A criminal, to me, is someone who commits an act that hurts or impacts someone else.
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GrilledCheez
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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the_great_intex posted:
Laws against having "illegal stuff" shouldn't exist anyways. A criminal, to me, is someone who commits an act that hurts or impacts someone else.
If you have child porn your collection has hurt others. I find your simplistic world view frightening.
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the_great_intex
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Absolutely, I think it has hurt others too. It is a total breach in privacy.
I don't have a simplistic view of the world, only a structured one. I wouldn't take "illegal things" as literal, it was only meaning things like drugs.
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Friarspam
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Subject:
The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Ptilk posted:
Anyone who thinks the "cops" are there to help or protect them...is a god damned fucking idiot.
This is true. I know that every morning while putting on my jack boots I would look forward to the early roll call. We would discuss which of the civil rights that we would violate, just so that we could feel better about ourselves.
We had a giant wheel with all the people in the county listed and we would spin it to see what person got treated like jews in Nazi Germany that day. We even had a railroad system so that we could ship the people to jail and force them into labor.
I know that we got a sweet discount from Remington on bullets if we just sent in enough ears to show that we were actually using their bullets on innocent citizens. We had to add extra springs to our patrol cars so that the weight of the drop guns and baggies of dope we carried to frame folks wouldn't cause the car to drag.
We got promoted based upon how many people we beat down. It was a sliding scale of course, more points for the brown man, less for elderly white Christian Republican women, but you get the idea.
There is actually a super secret National Police Olympics where we would all go to compete on things like arm breaking, dope planting, using hypnosis to make a normal citizen act like a freak and try to attack.
You know, I don't think that I EVER in 11 years on the job thought about helping anyone. Why, if someone had been beaten I didn't suggest an Ex Parte or assist someone into housing. No, I just slapped them and told them if they didn't want to get beaten and raped they should learn karate and wear a welded on chastity belt.
Ptilk, you sir are a true reflection of all that you declare "idiot" on such a frequent basis. /grow up son
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Thugoneous
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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The way you describe it Friar I think I want to be a cop.
Is 31 to old to join up?
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MayorShade
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Crooq_Lionfang
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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You know, Friar, you had me until you didn't mention anything about a donut eating contest at those National Police Olympics. Then it just became too unrealistic.
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Friarspam
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Crooq_Lionfang posted:
You know, Friar, you had me until you didn't mention anything about a donut eating contest at those National Police Olympics. Then it just became too unrealistic.
I guess it's too late to add that in for the /believable factor, huh?
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Voodoo-Dahl
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Considering how, former pig, Friardonut, represents himself on The Outpost. I'd say, all pigs must die.
edit: MORE COMMAS
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vn_nnanji
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Ptilk posted:
Anyone who thinks the "cops" are there to help or protect them...is a god damned fucking idiot.
Oh come now you are smarter than that. It depends on the context. There are lots of policemen and women out there who would indeed protect you if the situation called for it.
Well, maybe not you but they would do so for the rest of us.
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Ashmaele
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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GrilledCheez posted:
The law isn't meant to protect criminals. FYI.
True but someone who hasn't (or hasn't yet) been convicted of a crime isn't a criminal fyi
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B_Shinkicker
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Wow Friar!!
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Manegarm
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Stupid.
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Taliesihne
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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According to our law, everyone, and I do mean everyone, is innocent until proven guilty.
To say 'our law wasn't meant to protect criminals' is moot. Even hardened thugs are to be given the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
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Brother_Tempus
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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GrilledCheez posted:
The law isn't meant to protect criminals. FYI.
Yes it is .....your statement makes everyone a criminal
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Eager_Igraine
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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The law is meant to protect private citizens from the government. There is a process for which the police can already search someone's house if they know they will find illegal stuff. I'm not sure what the butt hurt is about.
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eodoll
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Cant trust the police. There are a lot of dirty cops out there.
Rodney king, that was a guy spying on the police that got the footage. None of those cops appeared to be a first timer or in shock at the scene.
If a cop comes into your house looking for drugs and doesnt find them, then he will plant them on you.
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Desnoxvu
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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In the land where everything is a crime.
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GrilledCheez
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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If you have committed a crime then the right to avoid search has already been compromised. now it's just about whether the police have the evidence, but either way you deserve to be searched and arrested. The idea that american criminals don't deserve to be caught because of the constitution is monumentally retarded. Why would anyone feel that way?
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Eager_Igraine
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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GrilledCheez posted:
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I know what you're trying to do but you're just sailing another failboat over the falls. - imaloon1
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GrilledCheez
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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False. I have heard people bemoan the cops searching houses and catching criminals because the cops shouldn't have been able to search. You make the argument that they are making then. I made the only one that seemed reasonable to me.
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NuEM
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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I don't understand this. If they already know they will find illegal stuff they should have the right to look and find out if there's illegal stuff? 
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sweeny_comodore
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Subject:
The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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so since you no longer wish the right of privacy, we will all be over to your house to paw through your things, eat your cookies, break you empty bottles and throw trash all over your house, break a few holes in your walls since im sure youve got a secret hidey hole there somewhere....
in fact, just leave your door unlocked since you never know when one of us, or the cops, might drop by and go through your junk.
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Yukishiro1
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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GrilledCheez posted:
If you have committed a crime then the right to avoid search has already been compromised. now it's just about whether the police have the evidence, but either way you deserve to be searched and arrested. The idea that american criminals don't deserve to be caught because of the constitution is monumentally retarded. Why would anyone feel that way?
I don't think it's about deserving.
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GrilledCheez
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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NuEM posted:
I don't understand this. If they already know they will find illegal stuff they should have the right to look and find out if there's illegal stuff?
wat?
No. I am saying if the cops searched your house and found illegal stuff, then your house deserved to be searched. Whether the cops had the right to search beforehand is obviously different. But what people are retarded about is that piece.
You will hear people say that a guy didn't deserve to get caught or go to jail because the cops shouldn't have searched his house. That line of reasoning is illogical. We have the laws we do about searches and even let some criminals go, not because they didn't deserve to be caught or searched, but because we can't reward the cops for doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. Otherwise they will just always do the wrong things and hope the ends justify the means.
but letting the guilty go on an illegal search is not about their guilt obviously. They didn't deserve to be let go. They deserved to be found guilty. And they didn't deserve to not have their house searched. They deserved to have their house searched. That's why the title says what it says.
In a perfect world cops would be able to search your house as soon as you have done something illegal that they will find evidence of, and cops should never be able to search your house otherwise. the idea that it's a cagey chess match between criminals and the police and those that don't make a mistake shouldn't be caught is tardy.
Yukishiro1 posted:
I don't think it's about deserving.
agreed. but many people think it is.
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sweeny_comodore
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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letting them go on a technicality over not having a search warrant is what prevents the cops from kicking in your door and rummaging through your junk.
if the courts just let it slide because, well, he was guilt of something, then they have just overthrown the need for a search warrant, ever.
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Yukishiro1
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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GrilledCheez posted:
but letting the guilty go on an illegal search is not about their guilt obviously. They didn't deserve to be let go. They deserved to be found guilty. And they didn't deserve to not have their house searched. They deserved to have their house searched. That's why the title says what it says.
In a perfect world cops would be able to search your house as soon as you have done something illegal that they will find evidence of, and cops should never be able to search your house otherwise. the idea that it's a cagey chess match between criminals and the police and those that don't make a mistake shouldn't be caught is tardy.
The basic idea of giving criminals a "sporting chance" goes back a long way in the Anglo-American legal system and popular culture as a whole. People have been railing against it since Bentham, so that gives you some idea.
I agree it is stupid but it's pretty deeply ingrained.
edit: So basically some fat guy 300 years ago beat you to this post, GC.
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GrilledCheez
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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sweeny_comodore posted:
letting them go on a technicality over not having a search warrant is what prevents the cops from kicking in your door and rummaging through your junk.
if the courts just let it slide because, well, he was guilt of something, then they have just overthrown the need for a search warrant, ever.
correct.
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sweeny_comodore
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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saying its ok that they illegally searched criminals place since they found stuff is the same as saying they should be allowed to search anyones house they want at any time because they might find stuff.
might as well just leave your doors unlocked and post a welcome sign.
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GrilledCheez
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
GrilledCheez posted:
but letting the guilty go on an illegal search is not about their guilt obviously. They didn't deserve to be let go. They deserved to be found guilty. And they didn't deserve to not have their house searched. They deserved to have their house searched. That's why the title says what it says.
In a perfect world cops would be able to search your house as soon as you have done something illegal that they will find evidence of, and cops should never be able to search your house otherwise. the idea that it's a cagey chess match between criminals and the police and those that don't make a mistake shouldn't be caught is tardy.
The basic idea of giving criminals a "sporting chance" goes back a long way in the Anglo-American legal system.
I agree it is stupid but it's pretty deeply ingrained.
it's just another example of general stupidity. I am trying to combat this with sexiness and pointing out stupidity. So far the sexiness has completely turned around a couple people. Jury is still out on the pointing.
the thing that most aggravates me in real life is DUI hate from my buddies. "That cop shouldn't even have pulled him over." is pretty much a one hundred percent defense in their minds. The fact that he actually he was driving drunk is tangential at best.
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NuEM
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I still don't get your point. The police should randomly search houses and the ones where they find something deserved to be searched?
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Sgian_Dubh
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Subject:
The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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NuEM posted:
I still don't get your point. The police should randomly search houses and the ones where they find something deserved to be searched?
That's the gist of it.
Basically, everyone is a criminal until proven otherwise.
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Sea_of_inK
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Subject:
The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Mag-Galahad posted:
They can. Its called obtaining a warrant.
thread should've ended at post 2.
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Orwyn_Blackheart
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Subject:
The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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GrilledCheez posted:
If you have committed a crime then the right to avoid search has already been compromised. now it's just about whether the police have the evidence, but either way you deserve to be searched and arrested. The idea that american criminals don't deserve to be caught because of the constitution is monumentally retarded. Why would anyone feel that way?
you are punching beyond your IQ 'weight'
please shut up
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RHWarrior
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The law is meant to protect non-criminals. FYI.
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Eager_Igraine
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Subject:
The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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GrilledCheez posted:
False. I have heard people bemoan the cops searching houses and catching criminals because the cops shouldn't have been able to search. You make the argument that they are making then. I made the only one that seemed reasonable to me.
So you are simply making a moral judgement that people who do illegal things deserve to be caught? Ok.
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GrilledCheez
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Subject:
The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Eager_Igraine posted:
GrilledCheez posted:
False. I have heard people bemoan the cops searching houses and catching criminals because the cops shouldn't have been able to search. You make the argument that they are making then. I made the only one that seemed reasonable to me.
So you are simply making a moral judgement that people who do illegal things deserve to be caught? Ok.
no. your complaint was that I gae voice to an argument from the other side that you thought was a strawman. I should have known you would puss out when I asked you to correct my argument then.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Subject:
The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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GC posted:
the thing that most aggravates me in real life is DUI hate from my buddies. "That cop shouldn't even have pulled him over." is pretty much a one hundred percent defense in their minds. The fact that he actually he was driving drunk is tangential at best.
I think theres a contradiction here in your theory and the actual practice. I just found out a friend was busted for driving with a .03 BAC which is well within legal limits. He was acquitted, the charges thrown out, but a website now has his name and is insinuating that he drove drunk. This does not sound like the innocent are being protected. It sounds like people with your mindset getting overzealous in their pursuit of "justice" and throw innocents under the bus.
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GrilledCheez
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
GC posted:
the thing that most aggravates me in real life is DUI hate from my buddies. "That cop shouldn't even have pulled him over." is pretty much a one hundred percent defense in their minds. The fact that he actually he was driving drunk is tangential at best.
I think theres a contradiction here in your theory and the actual practice. I just found out a friend was busted for driving with a .03 BAC which is well within legal limits. He was acquitted, the charges thrown out, but a website now has his name and is insinuating that he drove drunk. This does not sound like the innocent are being protected. It sounds like people with your mindset getting overzealous in their pursuit of "justice" and throw innocents under the bus.
That's a different issue. There is really nothing you can do about something like that, because they aren't an gov't entity. On the plus side though if they keep it up they will lose most of their reputation.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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You could keep the names sealed until conviction. You could not charge someone under the limit in the first place.
Hell, you could not automatically assume the person is drunk and treat them like a criminal when they haven't done anything wrong.
Edit: and how many people have to have their reputations ruined before the organization ruins theirs?
That's kind of like saying, well, we don't have enough evidence to catch the serial kiler, but the good news is he could kill again and again until eventually he slips up and we get him.
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GrilledCheez
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how people respond to due process that results in a not guilty conclusion is really a flaw of those people.
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imaloon1
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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GrilledCheez posted:
the_great_intex posted:
Laws against having "illegal stuff" shouldn't exist anyways. A criminal, to me, is someone who commits an act that hurts or impacts someone else.
If you have child porn your collection has hurt others. I find your simplistic world view frightening.
You just can't read right.
His simplistic world view takes that directly into consideration.
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DemonicXH
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Just because someone "thinks" they are a criminal doesn't mean that they are not entitled to owning property or constant harassment.
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Yukishiro1
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
You could not charge someone under the limit in the first place.
Uh the laws arn't usually set up so that you can drive drunk as long as you're under the limit. If you're above the limit that's sorta per se drunk driving but it isn't a requirement.
If someone is impaired they're impaired. I don't think I would want a system where the cops said "well, this person is clearly driving drunk and a danger to everyone around them, but they're under the limit, so have at it!"
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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So if we're going to allow cops to arbitrarily decide whether someone is drunk or not, why even have a BAC test? It seems to me that the BAC is the fair standard we use today. If that wasn't the case, my friends charges wouldn't have been thrown out in court.
If you're worried the driver is too drunk to drive, there are plenty of tools in the cops arsenal to prevent someone from driving at that moment without destroying their reputation on a "hunch."
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Yukishiro1
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I am not going to mince words. I think that's an extraordinarily stupid thing to say.
If someone is driving drunk they are driving drunk. The BAC is an easy way to identify people who are definitely driving drunk but it isn't the real point. We don't care about drunk drivers because of their BAC level. We care because they are driving unsafely.
Now in practice most people think like you do and so it's going to be rare to actually get a conviction if their BAC wasn't above the limit. But the idea we should say it's not a crime to drive drunk if you were under the limit - even if you were totally impaired - strikes me as totally insane.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Our society defines "drunk" as being over the legal limit for blood alcohol content. It doesn't leave it up to an individual to say, 'this guy is acting like a moron, I don't care if he's had a drop, he is certainly drunk!'
Further, .08 is an intentionally low standard because no one acts, feels, reacts, or thinks drunk at such low levels. So in practice, that .03 my friend blew is a ridiculously low amount that at most indicates the alcohol he metabolized was on par with cough medicine.
In theory you're wrong and in practice you're doubly wrong.
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Yukishiro1
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I think that's hillarious. You are fine with someone who is totally impaired driving as long as they're under the limit? Because that isn't really driving drunk even though they are drunk and driving? That just seems crazy to me.
Also, the idea that the limit is set irrationally low is also pretty silly. You have strange notions of what "impaired" means. Most people are feeling a large "buzz" at .08. They may not be falling-down-while-walking drunk but they're definitely feeling the affect of the alcohol.
Do you actually know what you're talking about? Have you ever got a breathalyzer and drunk alcohol and tested yourself to see what you're really like at .08? I have, with friends who were regular drinkers. I certainly felt buzzed and they all said they did too. Many of them were people like you who bought into the "oh, 0.08 isn't actually anything at all, that's such crap" line of thinking and were surprised to find out how wrong they were.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
I think that's hillarious. You are fine with someone who is totally impaired driving as long as they're under the limit? Because that isn't really driving drunk even though they are drunk and driving? That just seems crazy to me.
Oh, that's because you're being intentionally obstinate.
Who is totally impaired at .08? I've blown a.02 off of acceptable use of cough syrup.
Again, why would the court throw out the case if the officer testified he observed my friend driving drunk? Society says over .08 = drunk. under .08 = not drunk.
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Yukishiro1
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Do you have the record of the dismissal?
For all we know it was on 4th amendment grounds or a voluntary dismissal by the DA or something else. Or maybe your laws really are written so that you can be drunk and drive if you arn't over the limit. I don't know. Although if that were the case they presumably wouldn't have charged the guy in the first place.
Your thing about .02 being cough syrup is like a sweeney post it is so stupid. The relationship is not linear.
I have no idea whether your particular friend was driving drunk or not. I just think it's ridiculous to think it's ok to drive drunk - if you are really drunk and should not be driving - simply because you're under the limit.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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I think we have a definition of drunk driving that is commonly understood and if you're driving like you're drunk but under the limit, we have plenty of other charges that fit the offense more appropriately.
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Eager_Igraine
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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GrilledCheez posted:
Eager_Igraine posted:
GrilledCheez posted:
False. I have heard people bemoan the cops searching houses and catching criminals because the cops shouldn't have been able to search. You make the argument that they are making then. I made the only one that seemed reasonable to me.
So you are simply making a moral judgement that people who do illegal things deserve to be caught? Ok.
no. your complaint was that I gae voice to an argument from the other side that you thought was a strawman. I should have known you would puss out when I asked you to correct my argument then.
The strawman: "The idea that american criminals don't deserve to be caught because of the constitution is monumentally retarded."
Who has made that specific argument?
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Yukishiro1
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
I think we have a definition of drunk driving that is commonly understood and if you're driving like you're drunk but under the limit, we have plenty of other charges that fit the offense more appropriately.
If you are driving unsafely under the influence of alcohol you think there are better charges that fit the offense more appropriately than "driving under the influence"?
Great argument there, chief.
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paulg_68
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Uh the laws arn't usually set up so that you can drive drunk as long as you're under the limit.
You're not drunk if you're under the limit. In fact it's unlikely that you're drunk if you're at the limit. A lot of people can go way over the limit and not be drunk.
.08 is pretty much the minimum limit at which anyone can possibly be drunk.
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Eager_Igraine
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
I think we have a definition of drunk driving that is commonly understood and if you're driving like you're drunk but under the limit, we have plenty of other charges that fit the offense more appropriately.
If you are driving unsafely under the influence of alcohol you think there are better charges that fit the offense more appropriately than "driving under the influence"?
Great argument there, chief.
I imagine there are other charges available for people who are driving drunk, but are not over the legal limit. Inattentive driving, reckless driving, stuff like that?
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Yukishiro1
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The cops should be able to search your house if they will find illegal stuff.
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Eager_Igraine posted:
I imagine there are other charges available for people who are driving drunk, but are not over the legal limit. Inattentive driving, reckless driving, stuff like that?
Yes but that's not really the point. The offense is called "DUI" for a reason. I think it's silly that people think "reckless driving" would fit drunk driving better than "driving under the influence."
Now the real point may be that only having one grade of DUI is sort-of dumb, which I agree with. Driving while you are buzzed is bad and should be a crime but not as much of a crime as driving when you are falling on your ass drunk.
P.S. Paul is also wrong, as usual. In many (probably most) states you dono't have to have a BAC higher than the legal limit. If you do, that's just automatically drunk driving. It isn't a requirement. If you show signs of being drunk and have at least some BAC you can be charged with a DUI.
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Eager_Igraine
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But many prosecutors will not pursue a case that isn't the DUI-over-the-limit slam dunk because in most cases it is too easy for the Defense to make the case that this is over zealous harassment of the defendant which could easily be anyone on the jury next, which scares the jury enough to find for the defendant.
I don't believe it is unusual for prosecutors to work a plea down to something like inattentive driving if the BAC is anywhere even near the +/- tolerance of the machine because it is too much of a PITA to prosecute.
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Yukishiro1
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Eager_Igraine posted:
But many prosecutors will not pursue a case that isn't the DUI-over-the-limit slam dunk because in most cases it is too easy for the Defense to make the case that this is over zealous harassment of the defendant which could easily be anyone on the jury next, which scares the jury enough to find for the defendant.
I don't believe it is unusual for prosecutors to work a plea down to something like inattentive driving if the BAC is anywhere even near the +/- tolerance of the machine because it is too much of a PITA to prosecute.
That's all very true. As this thread had demonstrated, a very high % of the population refuses to accept you can be driving drunk if you arn't over the limit. So it's obviously going to be hard to get a conviction for someone who wasn't over the limit unless you have really good evidence they really were impaired, i.e. a video of them not being able to walk in a straight line and slurring their speech and all that.
I'm just pointing out that conceptually the views of those people make no sense.
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Eager_Igraine
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Yukishiro1 posted:
I'm just pointing out that conceptually the views of those people make no sense.
agreed.
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