__Bonk__
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Was it really necessary for liberals to nuke Japan
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TWICE?
I dont think so!
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reesescups
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__Bonk__ posted:
Was it really necessary for the US to nuke Japan
Yes, and twice on rainy days and Sundays.
/Get over it!
On a related note...
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__Bonk__
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That arch is made of unobtainium!
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Manegarm
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Photoshopped, in the second pic..
aaand Nagasaki wasn't affected by the earthquake to that degree..
fail.
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the_great_intex
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It was the best option at the time, so yes. I know blah blah it didn't save as many lives as it would have based on blah blah statistics, still the best option at the time
We *knew* that the war would end when we dropped them. People underestimate the massive amount of force and damage a nuke can do and what sort of statement that comes with it
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Bonzoboy1
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Okinawa scared the hell out of the Americans from Truman down, they decided better Japanese lives than U.S. marines and soldiers. Not to mention we wanted to scare the Russians, of course they knew most of what we knew thanks to the socialists and fellow travelers in the Roosevelt administration and the Manhattan Project itself.
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reesescups
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Bonzoboy1 posted:
of course they knew most of what we knew thanks to the socialists and fellow travelers in the Roosevelt administration and the Manhattan Project itself.
Seeing as how they got just as many of the jewish scientists as we did during/after WW2, of course they knew as much as we did...
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paulg_68
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Japan started the war and refused to surrender when they were beaten.
Had we not used the bombs, we could have saved tens of thousands of Japanese lives at the cost of thousands of American lives. Why should we make that tradeoff? We weren't responsible for the war and we weren't responsible for protecting Japanese lives.
They could have quit anytime. The fact that they didn't quit after Hiroshima is proof of just how irrational they were.
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reesescups
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paulg_68 posted:
We weren't responsible for the war
That's a semantic - oh NM it's you making that claim...
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Groucho48
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Harry Truman was not a liberal. A moderate, I'll grant you.
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Blue_arrow
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you can say liberals really good at bombing brown people and spare no expense
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paulg_68
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Groucho48 posted:
Harry Truman was not a liberal. A moderate, I'll grant you.
He's at least as much of a liberal as you.
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Groucho48
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paulg_68 posted:
Groucho48 posted:
Harry Truman was not a liberal. A moderate, I'll grant you.
He's at least as much of a liberal as you.
See, conservatives are even fighting to bring back an archaic definition of liberal.
As to Truman. I'm not an expert on him. As I recall, he was pretty decent on civil rights, especially considering the times. And, I'd say his foreign policy slanted liberal. In giving it more thought, and considering the times, I'd move him from dead center to center left.
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paulg_68
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Groucho48 posted:
paulg_68 posted:
Groucho48 posted:
Harry Truman was not a liberal. A moderate, I'll grant you.
He's at least as much of a liberal as you.
See, conservatives are even fighting to bring back an archaic definition of liberal.
I'm a liberal and I use the definition the rest of the world uses. I have no doubt the liberals of Europe would approve of me in much the way that totalitarian socialists would approve of you.
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Groucho48
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paulg_68 posted:
Groucho48 posted:
paulg_68 posted:
[quote=Groucho48] Harry Truman was not a liberal. A moderate, I'll grant you.
He's at least as much of a liberal as you.
See, conservatives are even fighting to bring back an archaic definition of liberal.
I'm a liberal and I use the definition the rest of the world uses. I have no doubt the liberals of Europe would approve of me in much the way that totalitarian socialists would approve of you.
[/quote]
Another post full of no information. What makes Truman more of a "liberal" than me?
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paulg_68
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You yourself called him a moderate. That is much closer to being liberal than a totalitarian socialist is.
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Groucho48
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Totalitarian socialist? Your the one pushing eugenics and taking away the right to vote from people.
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smellymotor
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Truman wanted to march through Germany killing man woman and child at the end of WW1 too.
the fire bombings killed a hell of a lot of civilians too
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Rhint
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The actual use of the bomb on a legitimate target gave respect for its power. It would have happened sooner or later.
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paulg_68
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Groucho48 posted:
Totalitarian socialist? Your the one pushing eugenics and taking away the right to vote from people.
I'm for voluntary eugenics. Funny how the meaning changes a lot when you intentionally leave out one word.
As to taking away the right to vote, so what? I'm for small non intrusive government. You are for tyranny of the majority and massive government.
Me = liberal
You = totalitarian socialist
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Coriolus
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Clearly..
Not seriously though it was a perfect chance to test their new toy in action..
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the_great_intex posted:
It was the best option at the time, so yes. I know blah blah it didn't save as many lives as it would have based on blah blah statistics, still the best option at the time
We *knew* that the war would end when we dropped them. People underestimate the massive amount of force and damage a nuke can do and what sort of statement that comes with it
This is the great lie.
The truth of it is, Japan surrendered to the u.s. over a week before the bombs were dropped and the u.s. refused the surrender.
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Coriolus
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Sgian_Dubh posted:
the_great_intex posted:
It was the best option at the time, so yes. I know blah blah it didn't save as many lives as it would have based on blah blah statistics, still the best option at the time
We *knew* that the war would end when we dropped them. People underestimate the massive amount of force and damage a nuke can do and what sort of statement that comes with it
This is the great lie.
The truth of it is, Japan surrendered to the u.s. over a week before the bombs were dropped and the u.s. refused the surrender.
Exactly, because they didn't want to miss the opportunity to use their new toy.
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Scarne
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Sgian_Dubh posted:
This is the great lie.
The truth of it is, Japan surrendered to the u.s. over a week before the bombs were dropped and the u.s. refused the surrender.
Japan knew what the conditions for surrender were. They didn't surrender under terms the US would accept.
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paulg_68
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Sgian_Dubh posted:
This is the great lie.
The truth of it is, Japan surrendered to the u.s. over a week before the bombs were dropped and the u.s. refused the surrender.
Pfft! They asked us to stop kicking their asses. They did not surrender.
If we'd have taken their terms they'd have been back raping and murdering in China within 3 years. They'd have been back on the offensive in the Pacific within 10.
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Yukishiro1
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Of course it wasn't necessary and the people killed obviously had no choice in whether to surrender or not.
The idea that it's legitimate to slaughter civilians to get a government to surrender has thankfully gone out of fashion. Although there are still plenty of people willing to defend it apparently.
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Eager_Igraine
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Scarne posted:
Sgian_Dubh posted:
This is the great lie.
The truth of it is, Japan surrendered to the u.s. over a week before the bombs were dropped and the u.s. refused the surrender.
Japan knew what the conditions for surrender were. They didn't surrender under terms the US would accept.
Right, the US demanded unconditional surrender and Japan wanted some protections for the Emperor.
otoh, we had two bombs. Why not drop one just off the coast and suggest if they didn't surrender unconditionally we would bomb every major city in 48 hours? I've never been ok with how that slaughter played out.
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Yukishiro1
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Because we wanted to show the Russians we were willing to vaporize whole cities full of hundreds of thousands of people.
There is no other convincing answer for how it was done.
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Eager_Igraine
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Because we wanted to show the Russians we were willing to vaporize whole cities full of hundreds of thousands of people.
There is no other convincing answer for how it was done.
Well based on the next 50 or so years, I'd say they were convinced we were dangerously crazy. So gratz, I guess?
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Groucho48
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paulg_68 posted:
Groucho48 posted:
Totalitarian socialist? Your the one pushing eugenics and taking away the right to vote from people.
I'm for voluntary eugenics. Funny how the meaning changes a lot when you intentionally leave out one word.
As to taking away the right to vote, so what? I'm for small non intrusive government. You are for tyranny of the majority and massive government.
Me = liberal
You = totalitarian socialist
Voluntary eugenics? You want the government to let poor kids die.
And point out any position of mine that is totalitarian. I am absolutely against the tyranny of the majority. I'm not especially in favor of massive government, either. I prefer the government to be non-intrusive. I am against the war on drugs, many provisions of the Patriot Act, forcing voters to jump through more hoops in order to exercise their constitutional right to vote, against any government intervention in the bedroom, etc.
You understand me as poorly as you understand the rest of reality.
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Fist_de_Yuma
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paulg_68 posted:
Japan started the war and refused to surrender when they were beaten.
Had we not used the bombs, we could have saved tens of thousands of Japanese lives at the cost of thousands of American lives. Why should we make that tradeoff? We weren't responsible for the war and we weren't responsible for protecting Japanese lives.
They could have quit anytime. The fact that they didn't quit after Hiroshima is proof of just how irrational they were.
Minor point. An invasion of Japan would have killed far more Japanese than the two bombs did. They were shooting civilians who refused to toss themselves off a cliff for God sake. This was the best way to end the war. I wish we did not have to do it but I'm glad we did.
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Yukishiro1
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There was no need to invade Japan either way. The alternative to the atomic bombings was shutting up shop and waiting for a surrender, not a full scale ground invasion.
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__Bonk__
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Yep no need to invade. The US just needed to say the emperior could stay on his throne. We didnt say that but after the war we did just that.
The thing was the US had to give them face but the US and Ally policy because of WW1 was only unconditional surrender was acceptable. This is because in WW1 the allies didnt ask for this and this caused WW2
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Yukishiro1
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__Bonk__ posted:
Yep no need to invade. The US just needed to say the emperior could stay on his throne. We didnt say that but after the war we did just that.
That's the perverse part.
If the U.S. had actually got rid of the existing power structure at least those lives wouldn't have been completely in vain. But as soon as the U.S. got its unconditional surrender it decided to let the emperor stay, which was the only real issue stopping a surrender earlier.
As is there was no point at all except pride. 250,000 civilians died because the leaders of both nations cared more about pride than lives.
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__Bonk__
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The more I think of it the more I now believe it was the ally policy of unconditional surrender. I believe that the allies all met and they all agreed that this was the only option. Dont know why more people dont focus on this aspect.
FDR I believe was the one that really believed that this was the only way. Truman followed his lead.
The US didnt care about the emperor. IT only wanted unconditional surrender which the Japanese refused to offer
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Clackdor
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Maybe they shouldn't have started a war with the US. 
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Yukishiro1
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They could have easily worked something out then. All they had to do was tell the Japanese "psst, we promise to let you keep the emperor if you surrender 'unconditionally'" and that would have done it without killing 250k innocent civilians.
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Yukishiro1
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Clackdor posted:
Maybe they shouldn't have started a war with the US.
I'm sure all those dead civilians regretted voting for the war and felt like they had been taught a good lesson.
Ohwait.
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__Bonk__
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So true Yuki. I also believe that the goal was to use the bomb to send a post war message to the soviets and to also prevent the soviets from getting half of Japan like they did with other countries. The US wanted Japan totally under its control after the war. Its a complex issue I think.
I think that the nuking of japan and the firebombing of the japanese cities and the bombing of german cities were war crimes.
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Yukishiro1
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I think part of it was Truman's insecurity, too.
I'm not sure FDR would have used the bombs if he had still been alive. But Truman was living in FDR's shadow and felt he had to overcompensate. He didn't want to lose his chance to use the bomb.
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__Bonk__
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Wish FDR lived. He was much wiser than Truman. Such a shame. The world wouldve been a better place if he lived a few more years.
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Groucho48
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Personally, I think it was a bad call, but, I can't really condemn Truman for making it. There were good arguments for and against.
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Yukishiro1
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__Bonk__ posted:
Wish FDR lived. He was much wiser than Truman. Such a shame. The world wouldve been a better place if he lived a few more years.
I dunno if that would have been better or worse overall but clearly FDR wouldn't have felt as much need to overcompensate or as much need to try to impress Stalin.
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ZigmundZag
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Yukishiro1 posted:
They could have easily worked something out then. All they had to do was tell the Japanese "psst, we promise to let you keep the emperor if you surrender 'unconditionally'" and that would have done it without killing 250k innocent civilians.
I thought they tried this, but it was taken as a sign of weakness and the Japanese opted to press onward.
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Hell I'll nuke it today if you show me the button.
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people are worthless. that is all
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Yukishiro1
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ZigmundZag posted:
I thought they tried this, but it was taken as a sign of weakness and the Japanese opted to press onward.
That's the first I've heard of it. And "press forward" with what? At that point Japan had no navy and no air force and the army in asia was being rolled up like a carpet by the soviets in korea.
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War makes rattling good history; but Peace is poor reading.
THOMAS HARDY, The Dynasts
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It was an appropriate action in its time and context and no morally worse than other firebombings and civilian massacres.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
I thought they tried this, but it was taken as a sign of weakness and the Japanese opted to press onward.
That's the first I've heard of it. And "press forward" with what? At that point Japan had no navy and no air force and the army in asia was being rolled up like a carpet by the soviets in korea.
I'm trying to find where I heard this...I think it was in the BBC documentary on Hiroshima, which is on Netflix. And "press on" was just a poor choice of words.
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Yukishiro1
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AzureTyger posted:
and no morally worse than other firebombings and civilian massacres.
Well, sort of. I don't think there was anything inherently worse in using an atom bomb instead of massacring civilians some other way.
The worse thing about it was it was pretty much pointless. Killing civilians is always a bad thing but killing civilians when the enemy is already clearly beaten just to make them surrender faster is worse than firebombing a city in the middle of a war even if both are bad.
Sorta like how there's nothing really different between kicking someone and punching them, but kicking someone while they're down and already clearly beaten is worse.
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__Bonk__
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It is just as bad as the firebombing of Japanese cities and teh terror bombing of German cities. Its just two bombs vs thousands. The end result is the same. War crimes all
The war was full of war crimes on all sides. That doesnt make it right though
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Yukishiro1 posted:
The worse thing about it was it was pretty much pointless. Killing civilians is always a bad thing but killing civilians when the enemy is already clearly beaten just to make them surrender at all
Fixed that for you.
As a reminder, the Japanese were asked to surrender after the first bomb dropped, and specifically told that if they refused we would drop another one.
They still refused to surrender.
Derp?
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Bonzoboy1
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If we were to take out kings instead of killing the pawns it would save a lot of lives and might even be a lesson for the next king.
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The japanese fought a vile and evil campaign and the people at home cheered while they did it. I have no problem with using the bomb. plus it had the added bonus of letting people know not to eff with us.
I am shocked to learn that truman wasn't a liberal though.
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__Bonk__
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Truman wasnt really a liberal and Lincoln really was. Liberals like to try to rewrite history
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Truman wasn't a liberal compared to FDR, that's for certain. heh
That's a pretty tall order, though. LOL
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Groucho48
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Well, as I mentioned, I'm not an expert on Truman. I think he was good on civil rights but he also called in the military to bust a union. What did he do that makes you guys so convinced he's a liberal? I can be persuaded.
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They dropped the bomb a week before Truman's meeting with Hitler and Stalin. They rushed to get THEM ready. Hiroshima was hit with a Uranium bomb. The Plutonium bomb had to be tested and shown to Stalin too.
So the question is, did they save most of Europe from Stalin, at a cost of 250,000 Japanese? Did the EU say thank you?
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Groucho48
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Just did a quick google. I knew there was some reason I didn't consider Truman a liberal. Well, he instituted loyalty oaths for all Federal employees. The House UnAmerican Activities Committee also really took off on his watch. That sends the needle moving right, again.
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They had it coming.
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Z-Elder posted:
They dropped the bomb a week before Truman's meeting with Hitler and Stalin. They rushed to get THEM ready. Hiroshima was hit with a Uranium bomb. The Plutonium bomb had to be tested and shown to Stalin too.
So the question is, did they save most of Europe from Stalin, at a cost of 250,000 Japanese? Did the EU say thank you?
Damn, I said Truman meeting Hitler and Stalin? Well maybe they dragged him along.
Truman, Churchill and Stalin.
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__Bonk__
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Truman was in a position exactly like Teddy Roosevelt. The bosses put Teddy on the VP slot so they could get him out of the way because he was causing so much trouble. Nobody expected the president to die and him to become president. Same with Truman. He was being a troublemaker too and he was given the VP slot for the same exact reason and the exact same thing happened
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Allstarslacker
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Clearly the Japanese shouldn't have attacked Pearl Harbor.
When you pick a fight you don't get to cry uncle and end it if you start losing.
At least they learned their lesson.
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__Bonk__
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Yep Japan picked a fight with a country twice its size. Germany did that with Russia too
In the end the big country can just use its men and resources to grind the small country to the dust in a war of attrition.
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Allstarslacker posted:
When you pick a fight you don't get to cry uncle and end it if you start losing
Actually, you do.
That was the problem though - they flat out refused to cry uncle, even after the first bomb got dropped.
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