-Mithan-
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Reposted from another forum. duh.
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-Mithan-
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I reposted this since it brings up an interesting debate. Can any conservatives actually dispute this point for point?
Also, I remember when I first got onto the internet and started talking with American's and found out that some of you guys actually believe that companies SHOULD BE ALLOWED to dump toxic waste into lakes, as if it was some sort of right.
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Dark_EternalFF
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Isn't trolling against the ToS?
WHY ARE YOU ABOVE THE LAW
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Axispipe
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^lol
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-Mithan-
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What have Conservatives done for the world?
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Dark_EternalFF posted:
Isn't trolling against the ToS?
WHY ARE YOU ABOVE THE LAW
This is not trolling, this is debate.
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Allmightybob_MLF
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I think we have a disagreement over what liberalism should be about. I want absolute liberty for all, while other "liberals" want absolute equality for all.
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Brandun
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Conservatives have kept libtards from making us a complete and total socialist country
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Dark_EternalFF
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What have Conservatives done for the world?
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-Mithan- posted:
Dark_EternalFF posted:
Isn't trolling against the ToS?
WHY ARE YOU ABOVE THE LAW
This is not trolling, this is debate.
You'd be debating if you started your premise with an idea or a concept, rather than an inflammatory statement.
I think you should ban yourself.
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KonorLc
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What have Conservatives done for the world?
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Dark_EternalFF posted:
-Mithan- posted:
Dark_EternalFF posted:
Isn't trolling against the ToS?
WHY ARE YOU ABOVE THE LAW
This is not trolling, this is debate.
You'd be debating if you started your premise with an idea or a concept, rather than an inflammatory statement.
I think you should ban yourself.
Seconded.
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NeoKarnak
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You can't refute it if you are using the Liberal/Conservative tags.
Democrat/Republican is different entirely, as their platforms have changed quite a bit over the decades.
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Asheron-
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bitch id dump toxic waste in your backyard all day long
liberal snot nosed prick
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Ex-remlocke
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"Liberals created Social Security..... "
And look where it will take us over the next 30-40 years. The basic idea of social security is definitely a good thing for a nation to strive for, but the actual implementation of SS in the US was pretty bad.
I view traditional fiscal conservatism as having a practical view of how we spend our money due to the fact that we have a finite amount of resources at our disposal at any given time (though modern politicians and policies certainly don't view it this way).
That's why traditional conservatives would be cautious about the number of social programs that are offered at the National level. Social programs aren't free and they have to be paid for somehow. With a nation as large as the US that presents unique challenges due to diseconomies of scale. That's why I suspect many Conservatives are for stronger immigration standards, because people immigrating on a mass scale puts a burden on the rest of the taxpayers.
Of course, this all idealistically speaking- hardly any true Conservatives exist anymore that represent these ideals. The majority of our congress is composed of selfish idiots on both sides of the aisle who are swayed by lobbyists and special interests.
In theory, being a conservative also means as having the minimum amount of government in our day-to-day lives. That's why I laugh at modern Republicans who refer themselves as Conservative but then they wholeheartedly support the War on Drugs.
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Elmador_MoK
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Lincoln saved the republic and ended slavery. I know modern liberals believe that he is nothing like the conservatives of today, as he fought to keep the federal power, but you have to look at the means for change that define conservatism versus liberalism in political theory: the issues of the day and positions shift along with the culture, and conservatism isn't about obstructionism (current partisan politics not withstanding, and liberals are just as much to blame for this team vs. team mentality[take such a polemic and inflamatory baiting like this very thread for example]). Lincoln would have freed ALL the slaves immediately, not just the ones in the south, if he was a liberal and not a conservative. True conservatism can be noted by the paramount focus on pragmatism and measured pace for social change. Take Edmund Burke for example. Anyway:
Eisenhower built the highway and interstate system.
Patrick Henry, James Monroe, and Samuel Adams and all the others conservative founding fathers were there beside their liberal counter parts to make America.
Reagan won the cold war, and peacefully.
Teddy Roosevelt busted up the trusts.
Henry Kissinger established relations with China and is one of the most noted statesmen of the 20th century.
Mostly we just work hard and smile, conducting business and providing and protecting the country.
This is just off the top of my head, and just from America. Think outside of politics too: many of the best conservatives shun politics and focus on business instead and have been a great part of what has made America great, not just her ideals and values, but her ingenuity, enterprise, and determination. Innovators like Henry Ford that provided this generation with unprecedented levels of material comfort. Conservatives are well represented in the sciences too, particularly the physical and material sciences.
It's easy to claim responsibility for the advancements in cultural maturity because liberals were pushing for them faster and less warily than conservatives. We've been there the whole time, providing a necessary guardianship to keep the liberal dreamers accountable and rooted in the real world, remembering that you need to understand things are the way they are, not the way they ought to be yet. If left alone, liberals always go off the deep end. Just like you need us to keep you honest, we need liberals to keep us from accepting ruts and institutionalize 'good-enoughs'. Lots of talking and little action is the essence of the democratic process. If you want swift and decisive action you need consensus, or a King.
The TLDR: Democracy needs both liberals and conservatives both to push ideas through the crucible. Laying a claim to any of America's successes by any party--alone--is little more than political rooting for one's favored team.
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Caoilin
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Ex-remlocke posted:
"Liberals created Social Security..... "
And look where it will take us over the next 30-40 years. The basic idea of social security is definitely a good thing for a nation to strive for, but the actual implementation of SS in the US was pretty bad.
I view traditional fiscal conservatism as having a practical view of how we spend our money due to the fact that we have a finite amount of resources at our disposal at any given time (though modern politicians and policies certainly don't view it this way).
That's why traditional conservatives would be cautious about the number of social programs that are offered at the National level. Social programs aren't free and they have to be paid for somehow. With a nation as large as the US that presents unique challenges due to diseconomies of scale. That's why I suspect many Conservatives are for stronger immigration standards, because people immigrating on a mass scale puts a burden on the rest of the taxpayers.
Of course, this all idealistically speaking- hardly any true Conservatives exist anymore that represent these ideals. The majority of our congress is composed of selfish idiots on both sides of the aisle who are swayed by lobbyists and special interests.
In theory, being a conservative also means as having the minimum amount of government in our day-to-day lives. That's why I laugh at modern Republicans who refer themselves as Conservative but then they wholeheartedly support the War on Drugs.
no. ss was fine for years and years because it had a trust with billions in it. it covered everyone and was not a drain on anything. then someone passed a law or something that would allow that trust to be pilfered for other things. that's why ss is the drain it is today.
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Caoilin
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Dark_EternalFF posted:
-Mithan- posted:
Dark_EternalFF posted:
Isn't trolling against the ToS?
WHY ARE YOU ABOVE THE LAW
This is not trolling, this is debate.
You'd be debating if you started your premise with an idea or a concept, rather than an inflammatory statement.
yeah like mithan is gonna censor anything he does because others get in trouble for doing the same thing. 
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Dark_EternalFF
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HE'LL DO IT BECAUSE I'M DE AND I'M FKING TELLING HIM TO
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Ex-remlocke
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Caoilin posted:
Ex-remlocke posted:
"Liberals created Social Security..... "
And look where it will take us over the next 30-40 years. The basic idea of social security is definitely a good thing for a nation to strive for, but the actual implementation of SS in the US was pretty bad.
I view traditional fiscal conservatism as having a practical view of how we spend our money due to the fact that we have a finite amount of resources at our disposal at any given time (though modern politicians and policies certainly don't view it this way).
That's why traditional conservatives would be cautious about the number of social programs that are offered at the National level. Social programs aren't free and they have to be paid for somehow. With a nation as large as the US that presents unique challenges due to diseconomies of scale. That's why I suspect many Conservatives are for stronger immigration standards, because people immigrating on a mass scale puts a burden on the rest of the taxpayers.
Of course, this all idealistically speaking- hardly any true Conservatives exist anymore that represent these ideals. The majority of our congress is composed of selfish idiots on both sides of the aisle who are swayed by lobbyists and special interests.
In theory, being a conservative also means as having the minimum amount of government in our day-to-day lives. That's why I laugh at modern Republicans who refer themselves as Conservative but then they wholeheartedly support the War on Drugs.
no. ss was fine for years and years because it had a trust with billions in it. it covered everyone and was not a drain on anything. then someone passed a law or something that would allow that trust to be pilfered for other things. that's why ss is the drain it is today.
While that legislation certainly made the problem worse, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't sustainable even if those dollars hadn't of been touched. Because of medical advances increasing our life span and the sheer number of boomers who will be retiring soon, the model really doesn't work long-term. I don't have the numbers handy for this right now but I'm pretty sure this is the case.
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Caoilin
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the banked money was enough to support that though. that's the problem. besides that, we could have ended ss with the banked money covering the people who are paying into it now, and not requiring the younger generations to pay into it to support the older generations w/o getting it themselves. taking that money out of the trust for it is one of the stupidest things congress has allowed to happen.
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cabbyman
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Liberals like poop sex.
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Ex-remlocke
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Caoilin posted:
the banked money was enough to support that though. that's the problem. besides that, we could have ended ss with the banked money covering the people who are paying into it now, and not requiring the younger generations to pay into it to support the older generations w/o getting it themselves. taking that money out of the trust for it is one of the stupidest things congress has allowed to happen.
From what I remember through drunken conversations I've had with my roommate who is heavily involved in politics, there never was a big supply of banked money that they were withdrawing from. Younger generations have always been paying directly for older people's SS money since its inception (e.g. the people who were retirement age when SS enacted didn't pay into it their whole life like everyone else has done). I may be wrong but I think the money that was dipped into was surplus money from the baby boomers paychecks (the same people responsible for these terrible politicians of late).
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Aerlinthian
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What does any of that have to do with Canada?
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Ah-Schoo
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Aerlinthian posted:
What does any of that have to do with Canada?
The butthurt is strong in this one.
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Allmightybob_MLF posted:
I think we have a disagreement over what liberalism should be about. I want absolute liberty for all, while other "liberals" want absolute equality for all.
Thats kind of how I view it in a way.
True liberals seem to think it is also their liberty to take as much of my money as they want, in order to fund projects for the "common good".
I am not a conservative at all, so dont get me wrong...I just hate overtaxation, and the whole communist point of view. Everyone is not equal.
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Onslaught.
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Wicked-Warlock posted:
Allmightybob_MLF posted:
I think we have a disagreement over what liberalism should be about. I want absolute liberty for all, while other "liberals" want absolute equality for all.
Thats kind of how I view it in a way.
True liberals seem to think it is also their liberty to take as much of my money as they want, in order to fund projects for the "common good".
I am not a conservative at all, so dont get me wrong...I just hate overtaxation, and the whole communist point of view. Everyone is not equal.
You sound like a libertarian. People like Ron Paul, BT and Aerlinthian give us a bad rap.
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If you think my opinion is idiotic, re-read yours.
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They saved the world from Communism.
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Second_Chance
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Reagan getting credit for winning the cold war is the same as giving Obama credit for the fall of Libya.
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JD_HOGG
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Conservatives brought us the republic so that we could have liberals.
Oh, and surprised no one has referenced this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
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JD_HOGG
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What else have liberals brought us?
The Trail of Tears (Jackson)
Japanese internment camps (Roosevelt)
Detonated two nuclear bombs (Truman)
Marijuana prohibition (Roosevelt)
Vietnam war (Kennedy & Johnson)
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