eodoll
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It bums me out ...
We know how the system works but its no surprise why the gap between the ultra wealthy and the working class is always widening. They legislate this stuff.
http://news.yahoo.com/romney-reports-tax-bill-6-2-million-2010-050445144.html
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Bowlartz
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Capital gains are from investments in....companies. Companies that provide jobs.
His earned income tax rates from previous years when he was amassing his fortune were higher.
He also risked the chance that every penny he invested, some 43 million dollars could have disappeared overnight if a company went bankrupt which happens all the time.
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B_Shinkicker
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We demand only the elite run for president, allow wealthy corporations to control elections, and then we shake our tiny fists at the sky in feigned outrage that only the ultra wealthy thrive under these conditions.
We Americans sure are hypocritical  's.
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Sea_of_inK
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Once again, income inequality is front and center.
It has become a recurring theme. That should be a hint for some of you.
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Allstarslacker
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We live in a system that glorifies wealth.
We are reaping what we've sown for generations. As long as our culture revolves around money we will not be free of it's influence in politics.
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I don't consider his tithe to the Mormon church charity.
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eodoll
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Bowlartz posted:
Capital gains are from investments in....companies. Companies that provide jobs.
His earned income tax rates from previous years when he was amassing his fortune were higher.
He also risked the chance that every penny he invested, some 43 million dollars could have disappeared overnight if a company went bankrupt which happens all the time.
Working for companies results in productivity.. Productivity is what returns real results.
Investing and getting back a return can also come from moving jobs overseas, taking companies apart, downsizing, buying distressed properities (kickng people out oftheir homes). Its not always from angel investing and creatng jobs. I simply think like with mortgage deductions, there should be caps on these incentivized tax rates. If you get back over s mil then youre taxed at the regular rate.
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Rhint
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Bowlartz posted:
Capital gains are from investments in....companies. Companies that provide jobs.
His earned income tax rates from previous years when he was amassing his fortune were higher.
He also risked the chance that every penny he invested, some 43 million dollars could have disappeared overnight if a company went bankrupt which happens all the time.
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Afio
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B_Shinkicker posted:
We demand only the elite run for president, allow wealthy corporations to control elections, and then we shake our tiny fists at the sky in feigned outrage that only the ultra wealthy thrive under these conditions.
We Americans sure are hypocritical 's.
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reesescups
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Bowlartz posted:
Capital gains are from investments in....companies. Companies that provide jobs.
His earned income tax rates from previous years when he was amassing his fortune were higher.
He also risked the chance that every penny he invested, some 43 million dollars could have disappeared overnight if a company went bankrupt which happens all the time.
You do realize the majority of his income is from buying and sellign businesses, right? Meaning he would go in sell off assets, cut jobs, close down plants and repackage and sell the company right?
Pretty much the opposite of providing jobs - he destroyed jobs.
Also the article says his capitol gains (investment) income was only:
$12.5 million for 2010 and an estimated $10.7 million for 2011.
And further more - when he was amassing his fortune it was more capitol gains, so he was paying less - not more.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Capital that is used to "create jobs" is rewarded greatly in the market. That is why Romney is so rich. We are either taxing those jobs directly or taxing those investing in them. To act like it makes more economic sense to tax the job than tax the capital is nonsense.
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__Bonk__
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Romney is like Gordon Gekko
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Grymlo
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Good thing we have a dirt poor president in the white house right now or we might all be ruined 
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vn_nnanji
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What is wrong about this is when this douche ultimately loses he will walk away with millions of taxpayer matching campaign contributions.
One term 6 year President. No re-elections.
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Bowlartz posted:
Capital gains are from investments in....companies. Companies that provide jobs.
With the unemployment rate so high it's hard to believe anyone still drinks this kool-adie.
/boggle
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Modeeb
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These are the tax brackets for 2011
Tax Brackets 2011 Single Married Filing Jointly Head of Household
10% Bracket $0 – $8,500 $0 – $17,000 $0 – $12,150
15% Bracket $8,500 – $34,500 $17,000 – $69,000 $12,150 – $46,250
25% Bracket $34,500 – $83,600 $69,000 – $139,350 $46,250 – $119,400
28% Bracket $83,600 – $174,400 $139,350 – $212,300 $119,400 – $193,350
33% Bracket $174,400 – $379,150 $212,300 – $379,150 $193,350 – $379,150
35% Bracket $379,150+ $379,150+ $379,150+
Capital gains is a graduate level taxation topic in Masters programs.
What is hidden from most of you: Romney pays no social security or medicare on any of this money, too. In addition to the above brackets, the average wage earner also pays social security and medicare tax (payroll taxes).
Romney is paying less than someone in the lowest tax bracket! This guy is hopelessly out of touch with the average taxpayer. He is working a system designed to reward the ultra wealthy.
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Tych2
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Romney is following the rules/laws period. I have no problem with Romney on this. He gets no demerits from me on this.
If you don't like it support changing the laws.
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NuEM
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The Lords of old also always followed the law.
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Modeeb
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How do you change the laws? The lawmakers are owned by those with most capital.
When you use , the word, period, do you also bang a gavel? 
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Yukishiro1
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Grymlo posted:
Good thing we have a dirt poor president in the white house right now or we might all be ruined
Obama's money comes mainly from writing a book millions of people wanted to read.
Of all the things to attack Obama for you have to be a grade-A moron...oh wait.
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NuEM
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Why doesn't someone who actually works for his living, like a mechanic, become your president?
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Yukishiro1
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Also, capital gains is the biggest scam in the history of economics.
Inb4 someone brings up Grandma's portfolio. "Think of the old people" is almost always a sure fire sign someone is scamming you.
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Tych2
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Modeeb posted:
When you use , the word, period, do you also bang a gavel?
No I save that for Paul. He likes doing that.
I don't know how you change the laws. I mean I know how it works, but how do we do that? I am not sure, but I can't fault someone for following the rules that WE all have to follow. I would question someone sanity if they paid more in taxes than they had to by the law.
Kerry is broke (compared to other millionaire senators)if you follow the letter of the law. His wife has all the money and most of her money is in non taxed munis. I mean I understand why you guys are all on Romney's ass about this he is a republican. I totally get that. Be honest with yourselves. If he was a democrat you know you would be making excuses like they do with Kerry.
The point is the tax law is screwy and that needs to be fixed. Not Romney.
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Yukishiro1
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Well, sort of Tych. Last I checked Romney's economic platform is centered on cutting his own taxes even more.
I don't blame the guy for simply doing what the law is but I do blame him when he's done his best to get the law the way it is and keep it there or even to make it even more of a scam by cutting rates further.
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Tych2
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Well, sort of Tych. Last I checked Romney's economic platform is centered on cutting his own taxes even more.
Cutting taxes is a plus for me.
Yukishiro1 posted:
I do blame him when he's done his best to get the law the way it is and keep it there or even to make it even more of a scam by cutting rates further.
Also how has he done that? He was a one term governor.
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Yukishiro1
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So capital gains tax law is screwy but making it even more screwy is a plus in your book?
No wonder we elect douchebags and morons...
edit: Ok I looked it up and his plan isn't as bad as some of them because it only eliminates capital gains on income under 200k. But that's still ridicuolous. Why should someone making 200k in investment income pay less in taxes (not as a percent, but total) than someone working 40 hours a week at subway?
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Tych2
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Cutting taxes is a plus in my book. You do realize the insults aren't going to bother me right?
This isn't a issue we are going to agree on so if you want to just devolve into insults lets just cut to the chase and get there. 
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Yukishiro1
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Tych2 posted:
Cutting taxes is a plus in my book. You do realize the insults aren't going to bother me right?
This isn't a issue we are going to agree on so if you want to just devolve into insults lets just cut to the chase and get there.
No, I'm really floored. I thought you just said the tax code is screwy because it taxes capital gains at a lower rate and that needs to be fixed. Romney doesn't want to fix it - he wants to make the disparity even greater. But that is good because it's cutting taxes? Even though it makes the disparity you just identified as bad even worse?
I really am having trouble understanding.
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Sea_of_inK
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You can't blame him for paying the lowest taxes he can, but you can and should hold him and anyone else accountable for their positions. These guys paying far lower rates on their taxes than your average Joe or Jane are simultaneously fighting to keep their taxes as they are and even lower them further. The most you'll get out of them is a stated desire to "simplify" the tax code... So it will be a much easier and clear but process whe n the average person gets screwed.
Anything said about the issue is labeled as envy or class warfare.
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Tych2
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I said cutting taxes was a plus in my book. I didn't specify which ones. We aren't going to agree on taxes. We've been over this several times in several threads.
I am not voting for Romney. I don't agree with his stance here. I am saying in general cutting taxes is a plus in my book. Hold your feigned flooring, I know better and so do you.
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Yukishiro1
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Still not really understanding.
Romney's tax plan involves making the disparity between capital gains and normal income even worse, not better. That was my point. Presumably not even you are in favor of that simply because it lowers taxes, right? That specific part of the plan - not tax cuts in general.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Still not really understanding.
Thats fine. Your understanding isn't required.
I've stated my position. Reread it. I'll help
Tych2 posted:
I am not voting for Romney. I don't agree with his stance here. I am saying in general cutting taxes is a plus in my book. Hold your feigned flooring, I know better and so do you.
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Ok. Your original statement was not very clear and made it sound like you supported his plan to make the disparity even worse.
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Modeeb
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Well, sort of Tych. Last I checked Romney's economic platform is centered on cutting his own taxes even more.
I don't blame the guy for simply doing what the law is but I do blame him when he's done his best to get the law the way it is and keep it there or even to make it even more of a scam by cutting rates further.
Bingo!
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Seething199
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tych has never wavered from his position on lower taxes always being better. as long as there are people voting entirely in there own economic self-interest, there will be a place for the modern republican party.
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Grymlo
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According to CNN
Yes, Mitt Romney paid far less than the maximum tax rate on his millions. But he's not alone -- 80% of Americans have an effective tax rate below 15%.
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If you exclude SS and medicare taxes.
Otherwise I kinda doubt it.
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Grymlo
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Yukishiro1 posted:
If you exclude SS and medicare taxes.
Otherwise I kinda doubt it.
Romney's effective federal income tax rate is still above that of many Americans -- 80% of whom have an effective rate below 15%. That tax rate is higher when other federal taxes -- such as the payroll tax -- are included.
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So exactly what I said.
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Jaedence
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Tych2 posted:
Cutting taxes and borrowing trillions from China doesn't bother me. I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords.
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Yeah, thats what I said. Why do we attract these retards.
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Bobvillas
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Romney paid about 3 million in taxes for 2010.
He gave about 3 million in charity. Half of that to his church.
He made 21 million.
His tax rate was ~14%.
What should we change?
How much should he have given in order to get the gold star?
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Taxes are a necessary part of living in a free society.
When you state that cutting taxes is good, almost all the time, you're stating that you have no problem borrowing to pay our bills.
Or do deficits not matter?
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imaloon1
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Tych2 posted:
Romney is following the rules/laws period. I have no problem with Romney on this. He gets no demerits from me on this.
If you don't like it support changing the laws.
I support the only candidate who would work to do just that
Sorry ya'll don't think he's the man for the job.
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Bobvillas
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We are currently spending 3.5 trillion as a nation.
We are currently bringing in as revenue 2.2 trillion.
Do you honestly think that increasing taxes is the only way you are going to solve this problem?
Even if we removed defense spending entirely we would still be ~600 billion shy of balancing the budget.
If we doubled our revenue from individual income tax we would fall 400 billion short.
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Tych2
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imaloon1 posted:
I support the only candidate who would work to do just that
Sorry ya'll don't think he's the man for the job.
I am sorry. I can't respect a person that doesn't believe in evolution. Thats something I just can't get by.
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Grymlo
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Yukishiro1 posted:
So exactly what I said.
yep
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Yukishiro1
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Grymlo posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
So exactly what I said.
yep
So basically the 80% number is totally worthless junk. Go go CNN.
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Grymlo
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They report. You decide!
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reesescups
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I don't be-grudge Romney for making money and paying his legal share of taxes.
What I have a problem with is people thinking he's a job creator and should be treated special because he's a job creator, when the simple fact is he's made all that money by being a job destroyer.
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IMHO
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Tych2 posted:
Romney is following the rules/laws period. I have no problem with Romney on this. He gets no demerits from me on this.
If you don't like it support changing the laws.
That's Hilarius.
The people who can actually change the laws are also the same ones benefiting from them. They have no interest in changing the laws. Why would they. Your thinking is naive.
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Tych2
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Then whine more. I don't know what to tell you. If you don't think laws can be changed then you should just curl up and hide.
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Yukishiro1
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The laws won't be changed because people don't care enough to get them changed.
Whenever they do something like cut capital gains they always throw in some bribes to get the Tychs of the world on board and then they're golden.
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Tych2
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You guys are something else.
Yuki didn't I in this very thread say I didn't support Romney on this issue? What is wrong with you man? Yet now I support him. You are a joke.
This is why I don't bother debating. There is no point. I would rather mock you guys when your side screws up and you are forced to defend them.
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IMHO
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Tych2 posted:
Then whine more. I don't know what to tell you. If you don't think laws can be changed then you should just curl up and hide.
No whines here, just stating facts.
WE have to raise up
Unionize!!!
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Yukishiro1
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You yourself said you're generally always in favor of tax cuts.
I'm just explaining how these things work. When they want to cut capital gains they put it as part of a package with a few token measures that help normal people. They use those to get people like you on board to pass what they really want to pass.
I don't see why you're offended. I'm just making a true observation.
You were in favor of the Bush tax cuts, weren't you?
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Tych2
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Do that with someone else. What is the matter Paulie won't play with you guys? I told you my stance. I could care less what yours is. Carry on with your whines.
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Yukishiro1
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It is probably better you take your ball home now before you get overheated. For an Outposter you sure take things personally easily.
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Tych2
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You mentioned me by name, thats the definition of personally, but okay chief. I'll allow you this win if you need it that badly.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Yukishiro1 posted:
So capital gains tax law is screwy but making it even more screwy is a plus in your book?
No wonder we elect douchebags and morons...
edit: Ok I looked it up and his plan isn't as bad as some of them because it only eliminates capital gains on income under 200k. But that's still ridicuolous. Why should someone making 200k in investment income pay less in taxes (not as a percent, but total) than someone working 40 hours a week at subway?
As I understand it, and there's a good chance I'm wrong. But you don't pay taxes on capital gains if you make under 200k in general. Which means my investments aren't taxed, your retirement isn't taxed, but Romney and Baym still are. I'd say that's a good start. Now we just need to raise taxes to a suitable and comprable level on capital gains for those who make over 200k.
The irony of setting up an arbitrary 200k limit after all the R bitching about Obama's 150k is not lost on me.
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Yukishiro1
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Why?
Romney's plan makes it even worse.
Under Romeney's plan people who get 150k/year in investment income will be taxed ZERO percent. ZERO. Compared to a person who actually works for that 150k, who will be taxed around 30-40% depending on deductions.
It's absolutely perverse. What sort of idiot creates a tax system where you get taxed for working but not taxed at all for having money and sitting there sipping your martini while you watch it pile up even more?
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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It's not prefect, but I think it's a good option. Not only are investments in business good for America, and more potentially risky than a traditional job, but I don't see a "good" way to not tax people on their retirement plans. I'm willing to be educated/persuaded, but as a low income earner, I'm happy to see any reductions or nullifications on taxes, especially on things that benefit my future.
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Yukishiro1
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Investments in business are good if they are good investments. If they are good investments they're good whether or not they get taxed.
It makes absolutely no sense to create a two-tiered tax structure where people who already have money are taxed at lower rates than people who have to work.
Any rational tax system would do the complete opposite. If you're going to use the tax system to subsidize behavior the obvious choice is to tax labor at less than capital growth, not more.
Capital gains is the ultimate proof our country is run by rich people for rich people.
To the extent your retirement comes from investment income it SHOULD be taxed. Like any other income.
If you are worried about fairness the solution is progressive taxation, just like we have for labor income.
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Sea_of_inK
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Statistics assure that many of the republican/libertarian economic cheerleaders ITT are somewhere between middle class and dirt poor 
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reesescups
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Any rational tax system would do the complete opposite. If you're going to use the tax system to subsidize behavior the obvious choice is to tax labor at less than capital growth, not more.
Unless you are trying to drive away labor...
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theredkay1
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Investments in business are good if they are good investments. If they are good investments they're good whether or not they get taxed.
It makes absolutely no sense to create a two-tiered tax structure where people who already have money are taxed at lower rates than people who have to work.
The real result is that people go to great effort to portray regular work as investment so that they can get better tax treatment.
Few people will refuse to make an investment and stick their money in a coffee can becaue the tax rate is too high.
Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Not only are investments in business good for America, and more potentially risky than a traditional job,
....I'm happy to see any reductions or nullifications on taxes, especially on things that benefit my future.
It might seem counterintuitive, but does a lower tax rate on investment create more investment? Or less?
If you desire to have X dollars in the future, you might invest less if you your return goes from 8% to 9% because of a tax cut. You invest less and spend more of your current income.
As tax rates have plummetted over the last few decades, is America investing more? Or are we spending more?
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Skinnyrumcakes
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So when did so many of you f'ing retards drink the kool aid and think being wealthy is somehow wrong? Jesus christ think for yourselves for at least 5 minutes and quit sucking off the socialist talking points.
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Onslaught.
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The tax code needs to be simplified. A flat tax may be a good option.
I don't know if there is much else to say beyond that.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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reesescups posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Any rational tax system would do the complete opposite. If you're going to use the tax system to subsidize behavior the obvious choice is to tax labor at less than capital growth, not more.
Unless you are trying to drive away labor...
When unemployment is so high, I would think the priority would be on job creation over labor encouragement.
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Modeeb
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Onslaught, how will your flat tax the following: a stock dividend, a gift, a barter transaction (e.g.if I trade you a piece of property worth more than your piece of property and you give me cash to make up the difference), I can go on and on making up different examples. How about this one: I pay you as an employee in stock options? You cannot throw out a hundred years of jurisprudence, just because you dont know what the real issues are.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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" It might seem counterintuitive, but does a lower tax rate on investment create more investment? Or less?
If you desire to have X dollars in the future, you might invest less if you your return goes from 8% to 9% because of a tax cut. You invest less and spend more of your current income." -redkay
Why is this a bad thing? I end up with the same amount put away and have a couple extra bucks to spend which would further stimulate the economy.
Unless you're suggesting I can't be trusted to manage my own finances and will end up with less money saved because its cheaper to save?
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__Bonk__
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Too bad rich democrats and most of the ultra rich do tricks like Romney does to shelter his income from taxes.
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