Author Topic: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
Vault_News 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
Lylirra posted:
So my question is, with only 6 'tiers' of talents after MoP, what is happening to all the other talents that are currently in game? Are they going to be skills you learn from your class trainer, either active or passive? Or removed from the game completely?
A little of both. happy

To better explain, let's divide the current talents into five categories: 1) mandatory, 2) very cool, but not mandatory, 3) sort of cool, 4) boring, and 5) useless.

We're going to give you all of the "mandatory" talents to your class spec, and you'll learn those talents at certain levels like you do with core class spells. Players who skip over what we consider mandatory talents today -- like Raging Blow or Hot Streak -- are unintentionally (or maybe even intentionally) gimping themselves, and that's not what we want to have happen. We want players to be able to experience the full power of their class, so we're going to award certain talents straight-out.

The second category of talents -- the cool, but not mandatory ones -- are really the heart of the new talent system (they're the talents you'll probably be choosing from in each of new six tiers). You may be glad you have talent A, but talent B and talent C are also compelling options, and it should ideally be an interesting choice about which one you take and when.

The third category of talents are still pretty cool, but they just aren't at the same level as other talents. These talents make good glyphs. For example, an early version of the warrior tree had Rude Interruption as a talent, but we feel it's too situational to compete with the other talents, so we'll likely make it a glyph.

The next category are boring talents -- the kind that reduce cooldowns or increase damage on some abilities. In most cases, we're just baking talents these right into the spells themselves. While there were occasionally situations where you got to decide which of these talents to take, the answers often relied on complex math problems that some other player ended up solving for most of us.

Finally, the current trees (despite our best efforts) still have some bad talents. They're the talents you almost inevtiably end up with when you have a talent tree with X rows and Y columns that you need to populate. In the end, not a lot of players end up taking these talents, so we'll just cut them. We don't think they'll be missed, but if turns out that players wind up actually missing some of the Cataclysm talents in the Mist of Pandaria design, then we've probably made a mistake somewhere. Ideally, you won't miss a thing and will have more fun picking talents that cater to your play style (or, at the very least, the current situation.)


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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
Translation: We're lazy.

 

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Ugh_Lancelot 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
Lylirra posted:
We're going to give you all of the "mandatory" talents to your class spec, and you'll learn those talents at certain levels like you do with core class spells. Except that you won't be able to learn "split-spec" talents with a few choice goodies from other talent trees like you used to because we're trying to pigeonhole people into very specific roles. So if you decide to go Protection Paladin tank, don't expect to be able to have the tank talents and also grab a 5% boost to mana regen or stuff like mounted speed increases from Retribution, for example. We're not sure whether we are going to comprehend those missing "filler" talents that helped alleviate gear gaps and such but it's a good bet we will forget and severely gimp certain lines and have to hotfix things over the first few months.

IMO...

 

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Kriegprojekt 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
They make my head hurt.

 

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JaredKorry 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
At this point, why don't they just automatically fill in the talents *they* want a certain spec to have when a player chooses that spec and take it completely out of the players hands? For that matter, why don't they choose our race, class, spec, trade skills and gear for us as well since apparently us stupid players can't be trusted to make our own choices?

 

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Arunne 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
Clueless. If they really want people to have certain abilities why not just stop the farce of choice and remove talents all together. 6 choices is nothing like the das when people use to tweak their specs to get that unique spec that worked for them.

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
I just don't understand where they got the idea that people don't like customization. Literally every human being I know prefers to personalize things they are interested in and when you have a wide array of talents to choose from it's like getting a bunch of presents on your birthday. I don't know any other way to describe it.

 

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Crafty_ac2 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
got to keep simplifying it to ready it for console release.

 

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Unstruck 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
The whole world seems to be on this "let's make ALL of life easy, lazy, simple, require little brain power, less physical movement, and no creativity in order to give people immediate, on demand satisfaction and rewards, and require as least effort as inhumanly possible. Oh, and ship everything in from China so it costs as little money as possible but breaks down within days."

AKA = people get more herp derp every passing year.

 

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Sociop 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
I think the reason goes something like this;

Mike Morhaime: “Greg classes are not quite balanced as they could be

Greg Street: “ Mike there are too many variables that is the problem

Mike Morhaime : “ Ok then do what you think is necessary you are a brilliant man” pats Greg on the back

Greg Street nerfs some things and rips a bunch of stuff out of the game in BC.


Mike Morhaime: “ Greg the balance for classes is even worse been getting a lot of complaints

Greg Street : “ Mike there are too many variables that is the problem

Mike Morhaime: “ Ok then do what you think is necessary you are a brilliant man” pats Greg on the back

Greg Street nerfs some things and rips a bunch more stuff out of the game in Wrath.


Mike Morhaime: “ Greg the balance for classes is steadily getting even worse I am getting a ton of complaints

Greg Street: “ Mike there are too many variables that is the problem

Mike Morhaime: “ Ok then do what you think is necessary, your intelligence astounds me on this matter” pats Greg on the back

Greg Street nerfs some things and rips a bunch of stuff out of the game in Wrath.


Mike Morhaime: “ Greg the balance for classes is beyond belief the complaints are overwhelming

Greg Street: “ Mike there are too many variables that is the problem

Mike Morhaime: “ Ok then do what you think is necessary, you are wise beyond your years” pats Greg on the back

Greg Street nerfs some things and rips even more stuff out of the game in CATA.


Mike Morhaime: “ Greg the balance for classes has reached catastrophic purportions and we are losing large numbers of accounts because of it

Greg Street: “ Mike there are too many variables that is the problem

Mike Morhaime: “ Ok then do what you think is necessary, your are god’s gift to the MMO universe” pats Greg on the back

Greg Street now ripping a whole bunch stuff out of the game for MoP.

 

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Spookysheep 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
^^^^^^^


laugh


Its funny because it's probably true

 

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Ugh_Lancelot 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
That's damn funny. I know Blizzard probably gripes at oversimplifications like this but if the results are the same, then why wouldn't they think we would come to that conclusion?

 

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Cawlin 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
Vault_News posted:
So my question is, with only 6 'tiers' of talents after MoP, what is happening to all the other talents that are currently in game? Are they going to be skills you learn from your class trainer, either active or passive? Or removed from the game completely?


Lylirra posted:
To better explain, let's divide the current talents into five categories: 1) mandatory, 2) very cool, but not mandatory, 3) sort of cool, 4) boring, and 5) useless.

We're going to give you all of the "mandatory" talents to your class spec, and you'll learn those talents at certain levels like you do with core class spells. Players who skip over what we consider mandatory talents today -- like Raging Blow or Hot Streak -- are unintentionally (or maybe even intentionally) gimping themselves, and that's not what we want to have happen. We want players to be able to experience the full power of their class, so we're going to award certain talents straight-out.


Translation: we're shooting for a market demographic that is too fkn stupid to figure out talent trees.



Lylirra posted:
The second category of talents -- the cool, but not mandatory ones -- are really the heart of the new talent system (they're the talents you'll probably be choosing from in each of new six tiers). You may be glad you have talent A, but talent B and talent C are also compelling options, and it should ideally be an interesting choice about which one you take and when.


Translation: we want you to be able to choose if you have red, green, or blue sparklies and rainbow swooshes coming out of your weapon/hands when you attack/cast. This is really the limit of what we think the majority of our target demographic wants to think about when they play the game.

Lylirra posted:
The third category of talents are still pretty cool, but they just aren't at the same level as other talents. These talents make good glyphs. For example, an early version of the warrior tree had Rude Interruption as a talent, but we feel it's too situational to compete with the other talents, so we'll likely make it a glyph.


Translation: glyphs will be the new talents but you can only choose 3 of them at a time that have any meaningful impact on game play - which means it's easier for us to balance and maintain the game without players min/maxing things we were too lazy to playtest and model properly to begin with. Oh but don't worry, we'll still have several "mandatory" glyphs for a few classes which make them unstoppable and which we will tell you for 8 months that we can't patch YET, and have to wait to see MORE numbers/arena ratings/raid content clear rates/etc. (really, we're keeping them until the staff members get over their class-based biases).


Lylirra posted:
The next category are boring talents -- the kind that reduce cooldowns or increase damage on some abilities. In most cases, we're just baking talents these right into the spells themselves. While there were occasionally situations where you got to decide which of these talents to take, the answers often relied on complex math problems that some other player ended up solving for most of us.


Translation: we were too lazy to rally delve into the actual workings of our game and were tired of the playerbase telling us how our game worked, not to mention the fact, we're going after the Hello Kitty Island Adventure MMO playing demographic here - HELLOOOO - remember, dum and dummer! (how many times do we have to remind you?)

Lylirra posted:
Finally, the current trees (despite our best efforts) still have some bad talents. They're the talents you almost inevtiably end up with when you have a talent tree with X rows and Y columns that you need to populate. In the end, not a lot of players end up taking these talents, so we'll just cut them. We don't think they'll be missed, but if turns out that players wind up actually missing some of the Cataclysm talents in the Mist of Pandaria design, then we've probably made a mistake somewhere. Ideally, you won't miss a thing and will have more fun picking talents that cater to your play style (or, at the very least, the current situation.)


Translation: we have been too lazy to devise inspired, creative, useful talent trees and will continue to be so going forward. Enjoy your fewer choices. The new crop of MMO subscriber dollars we're going after doesn't care about this, and those of you who still do represent a smaller portion of our revenue than what we project we'll be able to increase market share by with these changes dumbing things down further. Again, it also reduces our administrative overhead because there will be less stuff to balance and keep track of. It's a win win!


Lylirra posted:
Don't forget gang:

PANDAS!!! WHEEE!!

 

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Ugh_Lancelot 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
lol Cawlin... grin

Let's see... The justifications used to prune/railroad talent choices fall into:
* badly designed (or executed) talents
* boring talents
* cool on paper, but quickly left behind when it comes time to make a value decision (i.e.: le suq)
* cool, but not required. The ones folks usually agonize over (unless they're using ej.com)

Which leaves me wondering (briefly), "Why couldn't they have just revamped the talent system so the GUI had 'pre-planned,' 'basic' and 'advanced' modes, where:
* Pre-planned mode = picks all the primary basics for your chosen tank/heal/DPS role. ("I know I'll screw this up so just give me the most popular base set and let me spend any leftovers.")
* Basic = suggests primary basics by highlighting/proposing them and letting you adjust as you'd like. ("Guided-tour of talents as you level, including suggested respec points at, say, 30/60/etc. for classes that could benefit.")
* Advanced = same old 51-point talents we had, but you're on yer own if you screw it up. ("Don't bitch at us -- you chose that sucktastic split-spec so you could farm gnolls; don't whine when you get owned in world PVP because of it.")

 

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Liquid741 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
Sociop posted:
I think the reason goes something like this;

Mike Morhaime: “Greg classes are not quite balanced as they could be

Greg Street: “ Mike there are too many variables that is the problem

Mike Morhaime : “ Ok then do what you think is necessary you are a brilliant man” pats Greg on the back

Greg Street nerfs some things and rips a bunch of stuff out of the game in BC.


Mike Morhaime: “ Greg the balance for classes is even worse been getting a lot of complaints

Greg Street : “ Mike there are too many variables that is the problem

Mike Morhaime: “ Ok then do what you think is necessary you are a brilliant man” pats Greg on the back

Greg Street nerfs some things and rips a bunch more stuff out of the game in Wrath.


Mike Morhaime: “ Greg the balance for classes is steadily getting even worse I am getting a ton of complaints

Greg Street: “ Mike there are too many variables that is the problem

Mike Morhaime: “ Ok then do what you think is necessary, your intelligence astounds me on this matter” pats Greg on the back

Greg Street nerfs some things and rips a bunch of stuff out of the game in Wrath.


Mike Morhaime: “ Greg the balance for classes is beyond belief the complaints are overwhelming

Greg Street: “ Mike there are too many variables that is the problem

Mike Morhaime: “ Ok then do what you think is necessary, you are wise beyond your years” pats Greg on the back

Greg Street nerfs some things and rips even more stuff out of the game in CATA.


Mike Morhaime: “ Greg the balance for classes has reached catastrophic purportions and we are losing large numbers of accounts because of it

Greg Street: “ Mike there are too many variables that is the problem

Mike Morhaime: “ Ok then do what you think is necessary, your are god’s gift to the MMO universe” pats Greg on the back

Greg Street now ripping a whole bunch stuff out of the game for MoP.




honestly, i would have to vote this the post of the year so far!

 

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JaredKorry 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
This has definitely made me lose interest in MOP.

 

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Cawlin 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
Liquid741 posted:
Sociop posted:
LOTS AND LOTS OF TRUTH!



honestly, i would have to vote this the post of the year so far!


I have to agree. If I'd read the whole thread before I posted, I would have just QFTed Sociop here instead of my own blathering!

 

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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
laugh

 

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Road-Warrior 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
LOL.

Why are you guys still here, with all the bad stuff they're doing to WoW? I still have one account I haven't canceled, but I have not logged in for a couple months, and I've been busy playing SWTOR - so far it's lots of fun, even though they have their quirks too, like any other MMO.

When is MOP coming out, is there a release date yet (I obviously haven't kept up with the WoW news)? I may hang on to my account until then just to check it out, but every time I come here and read, I just want to immediately log in and cancel it once and for all... sad

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
The only reason I still have an active account in WoW is because I've made several good friends that still enjoy the game. Their enjoyment make the few hours a week I still spend in WoW pretty fun.

 

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Spookysheep 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
Road-Warrior posted:
LOL.

Why are you guys still here, with all the bad stuff they're doing to WoW? I still have one account I haven't canceled, but I have not logged in for a couple months, and I've been busy playing SWTOR - so far it's lots of fun, even though they have their quirks too, like any other MMO.

When is MOP coming out, is there a release date yet (I obviously haven't kept up with the WoW news)? I may hang on to my account until then just to check it out, but every time I come here and read, I just want to immediately log in and cancel it once and for all... sad





The real question is, why are you here, considering your last wow post was nearly two years ago.


Are you desperately seeking our validation?



And WTF is wrong with you IRL? Like seriously. Who keeps an active account for a game they haven't played in months?


o.0

 

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Demorak 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
Spookysheep posted:




And WTF is wrong with you IRL? Like seriously. Who keeps an active account for a game they haven't played in months?


o.0


!!!!

 

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Groooovechampion 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions

Wtf posted:
We want players...


God I hate it when that phrase shows up. We want players to this/that/bla.

No wonder this crap is going down ^^.

Yes, this is trolling. grin

 

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Road-Warrior 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
Spookysheep posted:



The real question is, why are you here, considering your last wow post was nearly two years ago.


Are you desperately seeking our validation?



And WTF is wrong with you IRL? Like seriously. Who keeps an active account for a game they haven't played in months?


o.0



1. My last WoW post was in 9/11, not 2 years ago

2. No thanks, validation for what?

3. I keep an active WoW acct because I still can't let go of characters I've grown since game release. sad

When MOP comes out, I'll probably buy it, try it for a month, and decide once and for all whether to stay w the game.

 

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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
Road-Warrior posted:
Spookysheep posted:



The real question is, why are you here, considering your last wow post was nearly two years ago.


Are you desperately seeking our validation?



And WTF is wrong with you IRL? Like seriously. Who keeps an active account for a game they haven't played in months?


o.0



1. My last WoW post was in 9/11, not 2 years ago

2. No thanks, validation for what?

3. I keep an active WoW acct because I still can't let go of characters I've grown since game release. sad

When MOP comes out, I'll probably buy it, try it for a month, and decide once and for all whether to stay w the game.




Sooooo, you stopped in to bash a game that you maintain an active account for because you can't accept the reality that your avatars don't even exist.

Got it.

Welcome back?

The talent changes are stupid and Blizzard is an evil greedy corporation who will probably spearhead the financing of the inevitable marshal law global takeover.

 

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Quazimortal 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
I'm still shocked they are continuing to go through with it all... plain

 

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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
Arcilite_I posted:
The talent changes are stupid and Blizzard is an evil greedy corporation who will probably spearhead the financing of the inevitable marshal law global takeover.

LOL!

 

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Taloquin 
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Subject: Mists of Pandaria Talent Questions
Quazimortal posted:
I'm still shocked they are continuing to go through with it all... plain


This.

When you announce something that is supposed to generate awe and excitement about your product, but it only results in market share loss, then you should probably reconsider your options.

Then again, they left GC in control YET AGAIN so I'm not exactly surprised that he's going to defend it to his dying breath, to hell with the shareholders.

 

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