Altra_Shadowstalker
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Should you run for president? I'm not talking eligibility, I'm just thinking it's a bit disingenuous to squirm out of your obligations to a entity you want to lead. Further, it seems even more disingenuous to fulfill one obligation to one entity at the expense of another.
Mormons should demand 10% after taxes, imo!
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Tych2
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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I don't know a single person that doesn't try and pay the lowest amount legally possible. If you say otherwise you are a lair.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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You're paying the same amount of money, you just decide you don't want it to go to a place you're trying to "fix"
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Scarne
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Tych2 posted:
I don't know a single person that doesn't try and pay the lowest amount legally possible. If you say otherwise you are a lair.
I don't. 
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Eager_Igraine
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Hmmm, neither do I.
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Darkblade_The_Great
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Then you are either liars or you don't make enough money for it to matter.
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Eager_Igraine
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Darkblade_The_Great posted:
Then you are either liars or you don't make enough money for it to matter.
I'm not lying, but I don't know how much money 'matters' in this instance. I don't itemize and I don't write off charitable donations. There may be other things I could also do to minimize my taxes (legally), but I haven't put a lot of thought into it.
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Tych2
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Eager_Igraine posted:
Hmmm, neither do I.
Lack of knowledge doesn't count.
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Darkblade_The_Great
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Eager_Igraine posted:
Darkblade_The_Great posted:
Then you are either liars or you don't make enough money for it to matter.
I'm not lying, but I don't know how much money 'matters' in this instance. I don't itemize and I don't write off charitable donations. There may be other things I could also do to minimize my taxes (legally), but I haven't put a lot of thought into it.
Like I said. I am not trying to be mean but if you are not itemizing you probably don't make enough money for it to really matter all that much.
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Eager_Igraine
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Darkblade_The_Great posted:
Eager_Igraine posted:
Darkblade_The_Great posted:
Then you are either liars or you don't make enough money for it to matter.
I'm not lying, but I don't know how much money 'matters' in this instance. I don't itemize and I don't write off charitable donations. There may be other things I could also do to minimize my taxes (legally), but I haven't put a lot of thought into it.
Like I said. I am not trying to be mean but if you are not itemizing you probably don't make enough money for it to really matter all that much.
Why would that be mean?
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Scarne
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Darkblade_The_Great posted:
Like I said. I am not trying to be mean but if you are not itemizing you probably don't make enough money for it to really matter all that much.
How much money do you need to make for itemizing to matter?
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GrilledCheez
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hahaha skonk.
Quit burning the anti math n00bs.
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sweeny_comodore
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Scarne posted:
Darkblade_The_Great posted:
Like I said. I am not trying to be mean but if you are not itemizing you probably don't make enough money for it to really matter all that much.
How much money do you need to make for itemizing to matter?
its not so much the amount you make as it is the amount you can deduct.
if you dont own a home or have children then itemizing wont make a bit of difference
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silvadel2
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Tych2 posted:
I don't know a single person that doesn't try and pay the lowest amount legally possible. If you say otherwise you are a lair.
Eh -- there are some legal deductions that can lead to audits that are more trouble than they are worth. I am sure there are a lot of people who purposefully pay a little above the lowest amount legally possible.
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Tych2
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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silvadel2 posted:
Tych2 posted:
I don't know a single person that doesn't try and pay the lowest amount legally possible. If you say otherwise you are a lair.
Eh -- there are some legal deductions that can lead to audits that are more trouble than they are worth. I am sure there are a lot of people who purposefully pay a little above the lowest amount legally possible.
Anything can lead to an audit. It's my business to know the tax laws. It's my business to know what will trigger flags. Yes I usually tell people unless it's a lot of money home in office expense usually isn't worth the trouble. There are work arounds.
People pay me good money to make sure they get every penny of theirs I can get back for them. I've not had a single person say I'll just pay whatever.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Mitt Romney posted:
America is broken, our deficit is out of control, the answer isn't to raise taxes, it's to send your money to churches instead of the government.
So we should tax the middle class more to make up for church deductions?
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Tych2
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By the way, after 18 years this will be my last year doing taxes professionally. I will be selling my business in the spring. I am tired of fighting the powers that be in Massachusetts.
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Eager_Igraine
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Tych2 posted:
By the way, after 18 years this will be my last year doing taxes professionally. I will be selling my business in the spring. I am tired of fighting the powers that be in Massachusetts.
Are you 'retiring' for the good life, changing careers or what?
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Ptilk
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I used to pay a guy to do my taxes. He fecked up big time and I ended up owing a crap ton of money.
I do my own taxes now and I don't deduct anything. Just pay whatever the amount it says based upon whatever amount I made. It's a hell of a lot easier and I don't really care about whatever amount I could "save" by jumping thru hoops and hoping I don't trip.
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Tych2
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Eager_Igraine posted:
Are you 'retiring' for the good life, changing careers or what?
To be honest I am not sure. We've recently decided this. I might just take some time off. I will still do taxes in some capacity. 
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ZigmundZag
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Tych2 posted:
I don't know a single person that doesn't try and pay the lowest amount legally possible. If you say otherwise you are a lair.
If they were trying to pay more taxes, they probably wouldn't need to hire you, now, would they?
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Tych2
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True
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Scarne
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Mitt Romney posted:
America is broken, our deficit is out of control, the answer isn't to raise taxes, it's to send your money to churches instead of the government.
So we should tax the middle class more to make up for church deductions?
Churches are more corrupt than the government. Why would I send my money to them?
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Ptilk
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There is absolutely no reason for churches to have tax free status, or for donations to them to be tax deductible.
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Bobvillas
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I am not sure this matters.
I look for every opportunity legally to keep the most money in my pocket.
Charitable contributions where I feel I have more control over, I give what I feel I can and should.
Churches asking for a tithe are not equatable to taxes and loopholes. At least I am not seeing the connection.
One is mandatory and one is based on your beliefs/choice.
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paulg_68
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
I'm just thinking it's a bit disingenuous to squirm out of your obligations to a entity you want to lead.
How did he "squirm" out of his obligation?
Are you saying the tax deductions he used were illegitimate?
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ZigmundZag
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Bobvillas posted:
I am not sure this matters.
I look for every opportunity legally to keep the most money in my pocket.
Charitable contributions where I feel I have more control over, I give what I feel I can and should.
Churches asking for a tithe are not equatable to taxes and loopholes. At least I am not seeing the connection.
One is mandatory and one is based on your beliefs/choice.
They can be. There are plenty of small, struggling churches out there who barely scrape by with their tax exempt status. There are also plenty of megachurches with pastors making six figures or more, and there are some that are so dubious that they appear to be nothing more than tax scams like Scientology. Somewhere in the middle are well-organized, well-provisioned churches, which the LDS church sits at the top of. I'm okay with their tax exempt status as long as they're not putting that money back into politics, but at the same time they're at a point where they don't need to - they can encourage their members to give more to the right causes and they can mobilize an army of volunteers anywhere that would make the Red Cross - hell, that would make the Red Army - envious.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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I'm not asking if we should change our tax exempt statuses or whether you should get the most out of your tax returns. I'm wondering why we shouldn't expect our politicians to pay the most into a system that they are bent on leading. Sounds like Romney cares more about his church than America, if that's where all his tax money is going.
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paulg_68
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So you're mad because you think he should pay more than he owes?
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ZigmundZag
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
I'm not asking if we should change our tax exempt statuses or whether you should get the most out of your tax returns. I'm wondering why we shouldn't expect our politicians to pay the most into a system that they are bent on leading. Sounds like Romney cares more about his church than America, if that's where all his tax money is going.
That's a fairly nonsensical argument. Maybe he should have worked for Bain for free, too, if he cared enough for the business.
Yes, government needs money to run, but there's a fairly popular consensus among Americans that it should use the least amount of money possible to do so.
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paulg_68
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ZigmundZag posted:
there's a fairly popular consensus among Americans that it should use the least amount of money possible to do so.
Sadly that belief is nowhere near a consensus.
Outposters argue every day for government spending that provides minimal if any value.
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Scarne
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ZigmundZag posted:
That's a fairly nonsensical argument. Maybe he should have worked for Bain for free, too, if he cared enough for the business.
I think part of the perception issue is that it isn't fair that due to the nature of the business he is in, what "regular" people have to take their salary as income, he was able to have most of his salary come in the form of capital gains instead. So he got to be taxed at a much lower rate than almost everyone else outside of the financial industry. He could have just as easily been paid straight salary plus commissions and bonuses and gotten taxed at the same rates as everyone else.
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paulg_68
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So then you blame Romney because someone else wrote the tax laws stupidly?
Why not look up who sponsored the bill that became the tax law and blame that guy?
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Friarspam
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Ptilk posted:
There is absolutely no reason for churches to have tax free status, or for donations to them to be tax deductible.
Maybe they don't need to collect for the poor or run a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter.
I'm SURE the wonderful DC crowd could cover all the charity that churches across the nation provide.
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NuEM
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Scarne posted:
Tych2 posted:
I don't know a single person that doesn't try and pay the lowest amount legally possible. If you say otherwise you are a lair.
I don't.
Neither do I. I gladly pay taxes to make my place better. I don't look down on those who min-max. I just have a different outlook.
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Testerion
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Should you run for president? I'm not talking eligibility, I'm just thinking it's a bit disingenuous to squirm out of your obligations to a entity you want to lead. Further, it seems even more disingenuous to fulfill one obligation to one entity at the expense of another.
Mormons should demand 10% after taxes, imo!
I'm going to form a religion that doesn't believe in taxes! 
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Taliesihne
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Testerion posted:
I'm going to form a religion that doesn't believe in taxes!
That's all of them. Churches don't pay taxes in the US.
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Bonzoboy1
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Romney pays what anyone smart enough to invest their money pays, I don't see the big deal.
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NuEM
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Taliesihne posted:
Testerion posted:
I'm going to form a religion that doesn't believe in taxes!
That's all of them. Churches don't pay taxes in the US.
Do it in Germany and chances are the government will pay you with taxes.
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Bobvillas
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Scarne posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
That's a fairly nonsensical argument. Maybe he should have worked for Bain for free, too, if he cared enough for the business.
I think part of the perception issue is that it isn't fair that due to the nature of the business he is in, what "regular" people have to take their salary as income, he was able to have most of his salary come in the form of capital gains instead. So he got to be taxed at a much lower rate than almost everyone else outside of the financial industry. He could have just as easily been paid straight salary plus commissions and bonuses and gotten taxed at the same rates as everyone else.
Someone using the law as it is intended is not someone I will begrudge.
"Fairness" is not written into every policy.
The best we can hope for is that they write laws that are accessible to most people to increase their station.
The law itself may need to be re-examined, but the people (I use this term generally) using said law should not be condemned for it.
Those using the "revolving door" in politics are in a different vein and should be suspect however.
http://www.opensecrets.org/revolving/index.php
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theredkay1
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This same bad argument was made by the right wing noise machine when Warren Buffet mentioned that we could raise taxes on the extremely wealthy.
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Cawlin
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So wait, what are you guys arguing here?
Are you arguing that a person who paid taxes in accordance with the law should be paying more just because... well just because they SHOULD?
Are you arguing that the tax code is FUBAR (if so, then I will agree with you)?
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ZigmundZag
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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paulg_68 posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
there's a fairly popular consensus among Americans that it should use the least amount of money possible to do so.
Sadly that belief is nowhere near a consensus.
Outposters argue every day for government spending that provides minimal if any value.
Yes, there are disagreements as to what constitutes "least possible". I chose not to examine this in my statement because it wasn't directed at one of our semantically challenged Outposters such as Koneg or yourself.
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Tych2
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Cawlin posted:
Are you arguing that a person who paid taxes in accordance with the law should be paying more just because... well just because they SHOULD?
Yup. That's exactly what they are arguing. He followed the law and is vilified for it. Dumb.
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imaloon1
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Super dumb
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Yukishiro1
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Tych2 posted:
People pay me good money to make sure they get every penny of theirs I can get back for them. I've not had a single person say I'll just pay whatever.
That's just selection bias. Of course someone who is going to a professional tax preprarer is going to want to pay the least money possible. If they were the sort of person who wasn't like that they wouldn't come to you in the first place, would they?
On point, donating to your own church should not be a flat charitable deduction. To the extent that you are really donating to a bona fide charity operation undertaken by your church that should be a charitable deduction. Just donating to the church as a general institution should not be deductible.
That is the truly religion-neutral policy. Our current policy discriminates in favor of religious institutions.
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reesescups
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Generally speaking, most people do not go out of their way to get out of helping the very thing they are spending their life working for and trying to improve.
Perhaps Romney has higher priorities that what his campaign self would allow him to realize...
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eodoll
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How do you only legally pay half?
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Yukishiro1
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eodoll posted:
How do you only legally pay half?
I think this is about Romney paying only 7.5% in effective taxes because he donates a bunch of money to his church and other charities, which lowers his tax bill by 50%ish.
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eodoll
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And he doesnt get hit by AMT? Are we sure about this 7.5%? im not worth hundreds of millions and i pretty much only have mortgage interest to deduct and im still hit with AMT.
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Yukishiro1
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Charitable deductions are still deductions under the AMT, unlike 95% of other deductions.
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reesescups posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJv5qLsLYoo
You would make Pete Burns proud
p.s. I watched that whole video.
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Tych2
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Tych2 posted:
People pay me good money to make sure they get every penny of theirs I can get back for them. I've not had a single person say I'll just pay whatever.
That's just selection bias.
That changes nothing. I am still calling a bunch of you liars. I am willing to be a bunch of people that said they wouldn't try and save every penny in taxes never worked under the table too. Even for a day. You guys can lie here all you want, but you have to look in the mirror and admit I am right. You don't have to do it here. I already know.
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Vydor
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Legally?
Everyone should only give the bare minimum to the government. It's not the people's fault that the tax code is so complex that some people can get more breaks than others. No one should look down on anyone that legally pays the minimum they can.
If there is any angst with this, it should be against the tax laws not the people.
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Yukishiro1
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Tych2 posted:
That changes nothing. I am still calling a bunch of you liars. I am willing to be a bunch of people that said they wouldn't try and save every penny in taxes never worked under the table too. Even for a day. You guys can lie here all you want, but you have to look in the mirror and admit I am right. You don't have to do it here. I already know.
I didn't bother getting my 50 buck check from the gubmint last year for overpaid taxes because it was too much trouble. If it had been 5000 I would have gone ahead and done it.
I've certainly done chores for my grandparents and been paid for it as a kid and I guess that should have been taxed but I'm not really sure what it's got to do with your point.
If your point is that people generally want to pay less I agree. But you initially said something stronger about how everyone does everything they can to minimize their tax bill, and that's just wrong.
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Bobvillas posted:
reesescups posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJv5qLsLYoo
You would make Pete Burns proud
p.s. I watched that whole video.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
If your point is that people generally want to pay less I agree. But you initially said something stronger about how everyone does everything they can to minimize their tax bill, and that's just wrong.
I didn't say that. If you didn't claim your $50 for a couple of seconds of work then you are a fool.
I'll go by my 18 years of experience against your feeling.
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Yukishiro1
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Last year we were both students and under the income limit for filing. So we would have had to file just to get our 50 bucks back. I wasn't going to spend 2-3 hours doing that for 50 bucks.
If you don't believe me there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise.
You have spent 18 years seeing a bunch of people who are willing to pay you tons of money per hour to lower their taxes. Of course those people want to do anything possible to lower their taxes.
Normal people arn't as neurotic. Sure, given a choice between paying less and paying more most people choose to pay less. But they're not going to go way out of their way to do so, any more than you're going to go mucking through an open sewer to get the quarter you dropped into it.
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Bonzoboy1
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I would be happy paying the same amount I pay now if they would just simplify the tax code so I didn't have to pay a professional to prepare them.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Last year we were both students and under the income limit for filing. So we would have had to file just to get our 50 bucks back. I wasn't going to spend 2-3 hours doing that for 50 bucks.
Two students wouldn't be spending 2-3 hours doing their taxes unless they couldn't read. It's statements like this that are leading me to my conclusion.
Yukishiro1 posted:
You have spent 18 years seeing a bunch of people who are willing to pay you tons of money per hour to lower their taxes. Of course those people want to do anything possible to lower their taxes.
I have over 800 clients. I done literally well over ten thousand returns. People that are students, to welfare moms, to doctors, etc. I have a very good handle on what people from ALL walks of life feel about taxes.
Yukishiro1 posted:
Normal people arn't as neurotic.
I am sorry to inform you of this and you probably already have some idea of this, but you aren't normal. You are fringe in most of your thinking as you are often at odds with everyone here.
Yukishiro1 posted:
Sure, given a choice between paying less and paying more most people choose to pay less. But they're not going to go way out of their way to do so, any more than you're going to go mucking through an open sewer to get the quarter you dropped into it.
Yes they actually are going out of their way to do so. Hence, people like Mo, Baym, and I am in business. Oh and H&R Block also.
Yukishiro1 posted:
If you don't believe me there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise.
I don't and that is true.
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Eager_Igraine
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Tych2 posted:
Eager_Igraine posted:
Are you 'retiring' for the good life, changing careers or what?
To be honest I am not sure. We've recently decided this. I might just take some time off. I will still do taxes in some capacity.
Whatever you decide, enjoy 
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reesescups posted:
Bobvillas posted:
reesescups posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJv5qLsLYoo
You would make Pete Burns proud
p.s. I watched that whole video.
I am also puzzled by this.
I made a noob mistake and directed a "spin" song to the wrong person in the wrong thread in the wrong forum!
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Cawlin posted:
So wait, what are you guys arguing here?
Are you arguing that a person who paid taxes in accordance with the law should be paying more just because... well just because they SHOULD?
Are you arguing that the tax code is FUBAR (if so, then I will agree with you)?
I don't think anyone else was making this argument, just me. Maybe Yuki, but I'm not sure he even agrees with my point. I'm not sure I even agree with my point, I was just asking (and then trying to make sure everyone was on the same page).
Your post actually tells me that I didn't explain my question very well. I specifically said I'm not trying to make a point about the tax code in general or whether normal people should pay more in taxes.
My question was specifically targeting every politician who seeks to run this country. Let's say, for example, someone makes $400,000 and has a tax rate of 15%. They owe $60,000. They also belong to a church, and that church says you should pay us 10% of what you make in a tithe (many churches do this, not just Mormons). So that person pays the church $40,000, and because you can only get out of paying half your taxes, pays the government $30,000. So our politician, who is more than likely going to raise taxes on one group of people throughout his tenure, has decided that instead of supporting the system that he intends to run, supports his church, and actually pays the church more money than he pays the government.
I'm asking more as a question of why we let our leaders get away with this. In my book, you lead by example. These guys are imposing mandatory increases on us and are choosing to exempt themselves, in part, from that very system. If every single person in America who paid taxes only paid half of what they owed to the government, how much higher would our tax rate be?
I know it's dumb, but I think it's worth thinking about.
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Yukishiro1
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Tych2 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Last year we were both students and under the income limit for filing. So we would have had to file just to get our 50 bucks back. I wasn't going to spend 2-3 hours doing that for 50 bucks.
Two students wouldn't be spending 2-3 hours doing their taxes unless they couldn't read. It's statements like this that are leading me to my conclusion.
We had income. Just not quite enough to have to file a return. Neither of us have ever really done taxes. I'm sure it would have taken 2-3 hours to get all the income information together and fill out the forms and all that.
Incidentally it ended up backfiring because the stupid IRS sent us something asking us to prove our income was below the filing requirement so we had to do all that work anyhow. And it definitely took 2-3 hours.
So in hindsight I shoulda just got the 50 bucks back since I ended up having to do the same crap anyhow for nothing.
And you're missing the point about your clients. The sort of people who are willing to pay you a large hourly rate to do their taxes are by definition the sort of people who want to save every penny on their taxes. If they weren't they wouldn't come to you. That's why I said it's selection bias.
It's like being a prison warden and saying everyone is a criminal because everyone you see is a criminal.
There are millions and millions of people like me who would rather pay less than more on their taxes but who arn't going to go way out of their way to do so. You can choose not to believe that but it's just a fact.
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Tych2
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If you say so chief.
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Yukishiro1
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Don't you call me chief, buddy.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Tych2 posted:
If you say so chief.
I don't think that is ever going to get old.
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reesescups
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If you (legally) only pay half of what you're taxed to the government
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Bobvillas posted:
reesescups posted:
I am also puzzled by this.
I made a noob mistake and directed a "spin" song to the wrong person in the wrong thread in the wrong forum!
I think there are three strike laws in effect round these parts son...
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Clackdor
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Haha. Yuki is a fool.
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Yukishiro1
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No, but I am a llama. 
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