Uccello
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If you download a song illegally or *gasp* a movie then you get jail time, heavy fines, personal property taken away. HOWEVER if you enter the country illegally, create an identity or steal one, work for years as an illegal citizen without paying taxes but sucking down all the benefits of being a citizen and we are arguing about who goes to jail and who gets a drivers license?
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BritonGuy
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I have a few of these you can borrow: . . .
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Briton Guy...persnickety...NEVER!  -Murron (truly) Hawkson is the greatest. -Hawkson Britonguy is usually right. -Onslaught on BT “Do or do not... there is no try.†- Yodazami Do you expect me to remember what I put in my mouth? -NSMachi
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Uccello
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yep.......... you missed the point
I figured it would get missed.
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BritonGuy
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I guess I was busy sliding down the endless path of words you carelessly slammed all over your post like some sort of internet caveman who hadn't yet tripped on their pileup of grammatical errors, pulled their nose out of the sand, and discovered the period.
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Briton Guy...persnickety...NEVER! -Murron (truly) Hawkson is the greatest. -Hawkson Britonguy is usually right. -Onslaught on BT “Do or do not... there is no try.†- Yodazami Do you expect me to remember what I put in my mouth? -NSMachi
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Stormyblade
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Uccello posted:
If you download a song illegally or *gasp* a movie then you get jail time, heavy fines, personal property taken away. HOWEVER if you enter the country illegally, create an identity or steal one, work for years as an illegal citizen without paying taxes but sucking down all the benefits of being a citizen and we are arguing about who goes to jail and who gets a drivers license?
F'in good point!! Don't listen to the neo-nuts around here.
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Second_Chance
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LOL @ crybabypeepants who want to break the law.
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regulator_cracka
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Second_Chance posted:
LOL @ crybabypeepants who want to break the law.
NO!  IT IS THE GUBMENT PLOT TO TAKE AWAY MY RIGHTS TO STEAL THINGS. THE INTERNET ENTITLED ME TO FREE STUFF, SO F THOSE WHO NEED TO GET PAID. NOW GO MAKE MORE MOVIES THAT I CAN STEAL AND COMPLAIN ABOUT!!!
You just do not get how dangerous this is! 
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HeartView
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I have to laugh at people claiming illegal aliens don't pay any taxes. If they get paid in cash then they don't pay INCOME taxes, but then neither does their employer. They're hardly the only one at fault, so careful where you point that finger.
They do, however, pay sales tax for things they buy. They pay services taxes for services they purchase. If they own property then they pay property taxes. If they rent then they are paying someone that is then paying property taxes (no different than anyone else renting).
As long as the immigration process is run by politicians instead of processes there will always be people that go around the stupidly complicated rules to get into this country. Ask yourself, is there any other place on earth you'd like to live? Why should they feel any differently? The only difference is that you were lucky enough to be born here.
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Aerlinthian
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Illegal alien invaders take jobs that they have no right to and they depress wages in the process.
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HeartView
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Aerlinthian posted:
Illegal alien invaders take jobs that they have no right to and they depress wages in the process.
Another complete fallacy. They have jobs because employers give them jobs. If Americans would do the same job for the same wage then Americans would be working at those places. But Americans don't want those jobs (most of the time) and they sure as hell don't want to do them for the same money. Asking the companies to employ Americans for two to three times the wages plus benefits isn't exactly promoting the free market, now is it?
Oh, but those same Americans want the cheap products those illegal workers produce. Go figure.
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Jezza_Belle
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BritonGuy posted:
I guess I was busy sliding down the endless path of words you carelessly slammed all over your post like some sort of internet caveman who hadn't yet tripped on their pileup of grammatical errors, pulled their nose out of the sand, and discovered the period.
you could be a literary genius.
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Cawlin
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HeartView posted:
Aerlinthian posted:
Illegal alien invaders take jobs that they have no right to and they depress wages in the process.
Another complete fallacy. They have jobs because employers give them jobs. If Americans would do the same job for the same wage then Americans would be working at those places. But Americans don't want those jobs (most of the time) and they sure as hell don't want to do them for the same money. Asking the companies to employ Americans for two to three times the wages plus benefits isn't exactly promoting the free market, now is it?
Oh, but those same Americans want the cheap products those illegal workers produce. Go figure.
Americans don't want those jobs because those jobs pay so low. The reason those jobs pay so low is because immigrant labor will work for those wages.
When you make $0.14 a day in Mexico, making $40/day seems like a damn fine wage.
Arguing this topic without considering the relative costs of living and associated social programs which are also tied inexorably into labor wages is farcical at best.
Regarding the OP, and the whole copyright issue - remember one thing: copyright law is the way it is not because of pressure from artists, but because of pressure from corporate entities who own the artists' work and who have established themselves as the means by which an artist's work gets sold. Just try to make a go of it as a talented music act without a major label backing you. It's not so much that a small time label can't get your material pressed, it's that they can't get it played on the radios which are also owned (either literally or indirectly through advertising and other financial investment pressure) by the same corporate interests which own the other artists and their material and which will play the artists on the big labels preferentially over the artists on no-name labels.
Consider that a typical music act gets pennies from the cost of a CD.
Do a little research on how studios work over movies and the financing of those and how actors are paid and who REALLY gets all the money. An example about movie studios:
Many movies will get made by a studio with only certain shares of the profits going to the actors and director and whatnot after all costs have been factored in. Meanwhile these studios will do things like "loan themselves" the cash for making the movie, at like 30% interest. When they pay themselves back plus interest, a bigger bite of the profits is taken, leaving less to be distributed. That's just one of the many many shady usurious tricks the corporate interests that control the distribution of this media work.
Of course those corporate interests are going to tell you to think of the artists when it comes to issues of "piracy", but then of course, any cut into their profits is reflected first in the salaries of the artists and their own corporate profits are the very last to be cut or impacted by "piracy".
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.Juzam.
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OP makes a valid point.
If the government can't catch and put people who came here illegally, and as such are doing every single thing in their life illegally, in jail, why is everyone so worried that they will suddenly be able to find people who are illegally downloading things??
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HeartView
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Cawlin posted:
Americans don't want those jobs because those jobs pay so low. The reason those jobs pay so low is because immigrant labor will work for those wages.
When you make $0.14 a day in Mexico, making $40/day seems like a damn fine wage.
But you can't exactly blame them for seeking a better life. If you wan't to keep the illegal aliens out of the country then fight the companies that are hiring them. If there are no jobs then they will not come here, simple as that, they will go somewhere else.
Even if the companies were to offer $10 per hour to Americans to pick vegetables in a field, not too many would do it. Though, I'll bet, many more would today than would have 3 years ago.
Want to solve a bunch of problems at once? Put the welfare and extended unemployment people to work in these fields for the same rate they get on unemployment.
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Cawlin
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HeartView posted:
Cawlin posted:
Americans don't want those jobs because those jobs pay so low. The reason those jobs pay so low is because immigrant labor will work for those wages.
When you make $0.14 a day in Mexico, making $40/day seems like a damn fine wage.
But you can't exactly blame them for seeking a better life. If you wan't to keep the illegal aliens out of the country then fight the companies that are hiring them. If there are no jobs then they will not come here, simple as that, they will go somewhere else.
I'm not blaming the immigrants.
HeartView posted:
Even if the companies were to offer $10 per hour to Americans to pick vegetables in a field, not too many would do it. Though, I'll bet, many more would today than would have 3 years ago.
$10/hour is actually not that great of wage - that's $20k a year if you get 2,000 hours worked. In reality, with the likely number of hours worked, it's probably more like $12-15k a year. It's also backbreaking labor in horrendous conditions of heat.
The other reality is that labor costs are a relatively small percentage of the cost of produce that you see in the grocery store as a consumer.
Wage issues aren't really about immigrants, though their presence does impact the market in some areas. Wage issues are the result of the war on the middle class.
HeartView posted:
Want to solve a bunch of problems at once? Put the welfare and extended unemployment people to work in these fields for the same rate they get on unemployment.
If you think about this a bit more, you will see it as an even bigger boondoggle than the current state of affairs.
How will you handle child care? How will you handle the various physical abilities of welfare recipients? How will you handle the healthy guy who doesn't think it's fair for him to have to bust his ass out in 100 degree heat for the same welfare/unemployment check that the fat slob collects for sitting on his ass, because you had to give a waiver to that guy so he didn't have to work because of his type 2 diabetes? How much do you think all the EXTRA government administrators would cost that have to oversee the program and ensure things like equal opportunity, working conditions, breaks, and proper bookkeeping and tax records are kept?
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HeartView
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$10 per hour is about the best you will get on extended unemployment. If people can live on that while unemployed they can live on it while in a field picking tomatoes or whatever.
And with all the money the company would be saving with those wages they can afford to put in some decent child care (child care workers frequently make somewhere close to $10 per hour anyway).
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Dwaveran
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I find this thread difficult to masturbate to.
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Tipztoe
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wait until they go after all that free pron you're downloading.. then you'll be upset.
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Cawlin
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HeartView posted:
$10 per hour is about the best you will get on extended unemployment. If people can live on that while unemployed they can live on it while in a field picking tomatoes or whatever.
For which they presently do nothing. For which many of them would find excuses *some legit, others not) to continue to do nothing while SOME of them would have to bust their ass under your plan. You aren't thinking this through. Workfare plans have been proposed a billion times in the past and even the craziest of their proponents see them for what they are - a big fkn mess that makes the current mess look like no problem at all.
HeartView posted:
And with all the money the company would be saving with those wages they can afford to put in some decent child care (child care workers frequently make somewhere close to $10 per hour anyway).
Um, they already ARE paying lower wages than what you propose. Do you see daycare setup for vegetable pickers presently?
You need to think about this some more.
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silvadel2
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Another thing about hiring illegals...
1: You dont need to give them benefits which massively pads the salary of a legal worker.
2: You dont need to pay the taxes/UI insurance/etc as an employer.
3: It is more stable as the USA worker is more likely to job hop if they find something better.
With those 3 things going on, it is cheaper to pay an illegal $10 per hour than it is to pay someone legal $7.50 per hour -- so it isnt even the case of people willing to do the job for the same pay, it is that it is much cheaper even at the same rate.
Of course if you can abuse the illegal on hours and pay them even less than a legal worker it makes the spread even wider.
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_Gimpzilla_
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The places that are cracking down on illegal immigrants are now having sever labor shortages. The farmers are paying more and (huge suprise) people still won't take the jobs, leaving stuff to rot on the vine in many places.
Lets remove all the immigration quotas, fees, and red tape. Let them come in legally and document them. We should deal with reality rationally instead of demonizing people who are seeking the American dream and personifying it to a much greater degree than most of the people here.
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HeartView
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I realize full well the complications in everything I've said. Pulling the plug on all illegals is NOT a simple solution, either. Claiming that somehow every illegal employed equates to one lost job for an American is not at all accurate. It's real easy from the outside to point at an illegal and blame them for your woes. But getting rid of all of them will NOT fix our economy, it will only make it worse.
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Tipztoe
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_Gimpzilla_ posted:
The places that are cracking down on illegal immigrants are now having sever labor shortages. The farmers are paying more and (huge suprise) people still won't take the jobs, leaving stuff to rot on the vine in many places.
Lets remove all the immigration quotas, fees, and red tape. Let them come in legally and document them. We should deal with reality rationally instead of demonizing people who are seeking the American dream and personifying it to a much greater degree than most of the people here.
if you do that, then they will have all the benefits as well, defeating the purpose of hiring illegals who aren't going to report you paying them crap wages and crappy working conditions.
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Ah-Schoo
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Aerlinthian posted:
Illegal alien invaders take jobs that they have no right to and they depress wages in the process.
Ahh I missed that boogeyman of yours.
I just assumed you'd stopped using this one because it was too reasonable even with your ridiculous excessive adjectives.
Muslims, cultural marxists, Mexicans, and of course the current one OMG HYPER ZIONISTS.
But that one has to be getting old, you need to come up with a newer more ridiculous boogeyman or people are going to slowly stop mocking you and just totally ignore your idiocy. (I can only do so much, especially when TRIO.)
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Cawlin
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It's true that sweeping all the illegals out of the country is not a simple issue either. However, the stupidity is the way people go about addressing the overall issue.
The issue is this:
Corporations are outsourcing their labor and operations to foreign locations with a lower standard of living and lower wages.
This puts Americans out of work. Meanwhile the standard of living here has been trucking along based on higher wages than elsewhere in the world. It costs more to live in this country - the cost of housing, transportation, fuel (though that is hugely subsidized), food, other goods and services, are all based on what can be afforded by the middle class.
Now you want to lower the average wage, but not lower the cost of living and I can tell you it won't work. Nobody cares if they make $0.42/hour if they can buy gas for $0.04/gallon or a house for $3000 dollars or a car for $250.
Meanwhile, when corporations look at their bottom line they see that they're selling fewer widgets or whatever it is, because they've put so many Americans out of work, that the middle class is spending less. They see this impact on their profit statements and how do they react?
Well they cut costs of course - and lay off more workers, who spend less, and companies sell less, and meanwhile, those companies are hoarding record amounts of cash, breaking new records each quarter, their profit margins and resultant stock prices continue to rise even though they're selling less "stuff". Those who are wealthy enough to not rely on a wage but rather on capital gains are doing great, in fact, they're getting wealthier, while more and more Americans are getting poorer and can't afford to buy homes (which is another part of the vicious cycle there).
Meanwhile people are out there talking about why Americans won't work and how lazy they are, while corporate profits and profit margins are steady and/or growing... and all those people talking about the lazy slobs who won't go out and break their backs for $10/hour picking beans to keep a roof over their heads, food on the table, and gas in their car (never mind that $10/hour won't let them pay that mortgage even if they had two jobs and worked 80 hours a week).
Don't you see the folly of that? Don't you understand that this issue isn't about immigration or about laziness or about unemployment or welfare? It's about corporate greed and an unwillingness of corporations to share in the down side of economic hard times but rather to pass that all on to the lowly plebes. The great joke of it is that all of us plebes are fighting with each other over the scraps of this economy which has been raped by these brigands for the last 50 years and has finally reached a breaking point while those holding the reins get richer and richer and their influence grows.
To top it all off, you have absurdities like the corporate interests of MPAA/RIAA pushing disgusting legislature like SOPA/PIPA because they are seeing their profits shrink too as their own exploitive business model comes to its ultimate and inevitable end and so now they want to jail Americans for not tithing to them. Holy crap what an insult that our government is spending time with such bullsiht legislature while there are very real crises going on... but then, I suppose when it comes to government in the US, you get what you pay for.
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HeartView
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It's a self defeating prophecy, for sure. We're a country that prides itself on the freedom of its people to live and prosper (or not) based on their ambitions. This includes the right of businesses to do the same.
We open up to a global market and that paves the way for corporations to take advantage of the global workforce. You can't have this part both ways. You either compete on the global market taking all the good and the bad, or you don't. The rest of the world isn't going to let us sell to them but not buy their stuff. And they sure as hell aren't going to buy our stuff at the price we sell it for here.
We can't expect companies to compete on a global market without taking advantage of the cost structures it provides. When you can take your design to China, have them make it to spec, and then ship it back to the US for considerably less that what it would take to make it here, you can't seriously expect a company to do anything different, can you?
We put money before everything else here and we are now reaping the rewards of our priorities. We had no issues with it until started affecting us on a personal level and now we rage. I'm here to tell everyone that it will take a complete turn around in our priorities before we can get off this rickety ride.
We have no national pride anymore. We have no heroic leaders. We do not fight for universal fairness, justice, or for a greater good. We're all in it for ourselves and we wonder why it is all falling apart.
*sigh*
We're wrestling around in a house built without nails (or, at least, the nails have been removed). Collapse isn't a possibility, it's inevitable.
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Cawlin
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HeartView posted:
It's a self defeating prophecy, for sure. We're a country that prides itself on the freedom of its people to live and prosper (or not) based on their ambitions. This includes the right of businesses to do the same.
We open up to a global market and that paves the way for corporations to take advantage of the global workforce. You can't have this part both ways. You either compete on the global market taking all the good and the bad, or you don't. The rest of the world isn't going to let us sell to them but not buy their stuff. And they sure as hell aren't going to buy our stuff at the price we sell it for here.
We can't expect companies to compete on a global market without taking advantage of the cost structures it provides. When you can take your design to China, have them make it to spec, and then ship it back to the US for considerably less that what it would take to make it here, you can't seriously expect a company to do anything different, can you?
We put money before everything else here and we are now reaping the rewards of our priorities. We had no issues with it until started affecting us on a personal level and now we rage. I'm here to tell everyone that it will take a complete turn around in our priorities before we can get off this rickety ride.
We have no national pride anymore. We have no heroic leaders. We do not fight for universal fairness, justice, or for a greater good. We're all in it for ourselves and we wonder why it is all falling apart.
*sigh*
We're wrestling around in a house built without nails (or, at least, the nails have been removed). Collapse isn't a possibility, it's inevitable.
The entirety of the root of the matter is actually the collusion of our government with corporate interests. The American government stopped being of, for, and by the people a long time ago and has been steadily creating an environment that favors exploitation of our middle class by corporate entities. We even went so far as to grant "personhood" status to corporations... what the fkn fkity fk? That is by the way, the very definition of fascism.
Incidentally, you can't talk about Americans' wanting "cheap" goods until or unless you address the other issues such as the FACT that American two-parent families in 2012 typically have both parents working full time in order to have the same lifestyle as that same family had in 1950 with ONE parent working full time. Americans for the past 60 years have worked more and more for less and less relative to the cost of living. So yeah, we want to buy Chinese made crap at Wal-Mart because unless we start putting our kids to work earlier, that's what we can fkn afford! When you address that issue and come to grips with the root of it, I think you will see that the whole "Americans just want cheap stuff" argument doesn't hold any water.
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If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
Everyone playing WoW knows everything about playing two classes: 1) their own and 2) Hunters
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myxomatosis8
Title: amateur zookeeper
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Subject:
Something is very seriously wrong here
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Uccello posted:
yep.......... you missed the point
I figured it would get missed.
Actually you missed the point! All of them...
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If you're flammable and have legs, you're never blocking a fire exit.
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