Allstarslacker
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There was a time...
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Before we ate from that forbidden tree.
A time before we forgot who we were. When we talked truthfully because there was no shame, and we walked in straight lines because we knew where we wanted to go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwNoH6zjc9Q
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Before we ate from the tree, we weren't men. Eve and lucifer (lightbringer) saved us from a meaningless existence.
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Allstarslacker
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Meaning is not dependent on judgement. Judgement is reactive and seeks to prevent that which is deemed undesirable. It can only destroy.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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It is not judgement to call a man a man, or a not man a not man.
We were given free will by god and the freedom to use it by lucifer.
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Allstarslacker
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There was a time...
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God and Lucifer are the same.
There is only one.
The fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is judgement. It is an attractive fruit because it validates our feelings. It allows us to condemn that which we hate, but it also dooms us to that same condemnation.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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I see.
I do not look at the liberation stemming from eating of the fruit, but the expulsion from eden. Or maybe that combined with the consumption of the fruit. It does not add meaning by itself or directly, but it does make a part more whole, and that is meaningful.
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Allstarslacker
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Liberation from what?
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Servitude. Giving us free will and not the mechanics to use it. We were unchanging in the Garden, dead. The process that evicted us gave us life.
Not servitude, slavery. My distinction is choice.
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Eager_Igraine
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There was a time...
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Allstarslacker posted:
Before we ate from that forbidden tree.
A time before we forgot who we were. When we talked truthfully because there was no shame, and we walked in straight lines because we knew where we wanted to go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwNoH6zjc9Q
So your argument is that knowledge of good and evil creates shame and lack of direction, not to mention some kind of identity crisis?
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Allstarslacker
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The garden was a world without judgement. It was a world in which anything could happen without blame being cast upon it. It was free to be what it was.
God created man to be what he was. To live as he would. Part of that freedom is the ability to judge (eat the fruit), but it is also the ability to abstain from judgement.
All of us have the fruit before us, and all of us must choose to eat from it or to leave it alone.
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Allstarslacker
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Eager_Igraine posted:
Allstarslacker posted:
Before we ate from that forbidden tree.
A time before we forgot who we were. When we talked truthfully because there was no shame, and we walked in straight lines because we knew where we wanted to go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwNoH6zjc9Q
So your argument is that knowledge of good and evil creates shame and lack of direction, not to mention some kind of identity crisis?
Pretty much.
When we judge we are trying to force an idea onto reality. The reality is that anything goes.
Man chooses shame, and as a result he hides who he is, and separates himself from the world around him.
Genesis 3: 6-10:
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?â€
10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.â€
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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I see your Pucifier and raise you A Perfect Circle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbxf78nfHao
God made man but wanted to prevent him from being all he could be. Only with eating the apple and being expelled was he able to have potential, even if that potential was self imposed segregation.
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Allstarslacker
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Man is part of God.
Regardless of what we choose we are all we could be.
That we choose shame and judgement doesn't diminish our worth, but it does increase the sorrow we experience.
We choose the cross we bear.
Matthew 11: 28-30:
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.â€
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Allstarslacker posted:
Man is part of God.
Regardless of what we choose we are all we could be.
That we choose shame and judgement doesn't diminish our worth, but it does increase the sorrow we experience.
We choose the cross we bear.
Sin is separation from God. I'd happily bear that cross as the consequences of my choices are mine.
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Allstarslacker
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Sin is a lie.
There is no separation from God. Only self imposed burdens.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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I would also argue that our choice to bear that cross makes us more worthy. Like a kid moving out on his own, dad would happily pay the bills, but the kid wants to make it himself.
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Allstarslacker
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You are here, and you will do what you will do.
I do not think there is a tab to be paid.
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Eager_Igraine
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Allstarslacker posted:
Eager_Igraine posted:
Allstarslacker posted:
Before we ate from that forbidden tree.
A time before we forgot who we were. When we talked truthfully because there was no shame, and we walked in straight lines because we knew where we wanted to go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwNoH6zjc9Q
So your argument is that knowledge of good and evil creates shame and lack of direction, not to mention some kind of identity crisis?
Pretty much.
When we judge we are trying to force an idea onto reality. The reality is that anything goes.
Man chooses shame, and as a result he hides who he is, and separates himself from the world around him.
Genesis 3: 6-10:
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?â€
10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.â€
Knowledge of good and evil (from God's apple tree) would be objective knowledge not subjective judgement.
If Man chooses shame, it is the choice and not the knowledge that creates shame, so Freewill creates shame.
Keep in mind that we are exactly what God intended to create and so are our results.
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Allstarslacker
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How can good and evil be anything but subjective?
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Eager_Igraine
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Allstarslacker posted:
How can good and evil be anything but subjective?
If you are working from the biblical perspective, how can it be anything but objective?
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Allstarslacker
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Does a biblical perspective have to be literal?
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Allstarslacker posted:
You are here, and you will do what you will do.
I do not think there is a tab to be paid.
I don't think it is a tab. I think its Man growing up and getting out of the house.
I think at this stage of our development, we're in our mid-twenties. We don't have that bloodlust or adrenaline coursing through us but we still want to protect our own. We're learning about responsibility for things we effect and are able to express compassion on a worldwide scale. Every decade that passes we lose less and less to the childish sins of unjust wars and our targets when we do fight are precise. We are beginning to realize there are options other than our first instincts.
I imagine we were old, matured men in the Garden, who knew nothing of warfare or sin. I imagine, one day we will return to that state, but we will bring with us the knowledge and experience of having lived our lives. Just as some return home to finish their lives in the houses of their families, returning with their own families, experiences and memories. I think you get more out life that way than if you spent it sheltered by your parents.
Damn dude, this is really mellowing me out. I don't even feel like baiting Ron Paul supporters anymore.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Allstarslacker posted:
Does a biblical perspective have to be literal?
I think what he's getting at is there is a Divine Law or Morality if you believe in the Eden story. These, or the commandments for instance, are not subjective.
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reesescups
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Allstarslacker posted:
God created man to be what he was. To live as he would. Part of that freedom is the ability to judge (eat the fruit), but it is also the ability to abstain from judgement.
So God created us as an animal and somehow we obtained enough knowledge to rise above the station in life that God created us to be in.
Um, ok - so what's your point?
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Who says God didn't intend for us to be what we are? Who did he create the tree for? Who did he create lucifer for? Who did he create Eve for?
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Allstarslacker
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reesescups posted:
Allstarslacker posted:
God created man to be what he was. To live as he would. Part of that freedom is the ability to judge (eat the fruit), but it is also the ability to abstain from judgement.
So God created us as an animal and somehow we obtained enough knowledge to rise above the station in life that God created us to be in.
Um, ok - so what's your point?
There are no stations.
Knowledge is created not discovered.
We are part of a greater whole.
God is that whole.
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Allstarslacker
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Who says God didn't intend for us to be what we are? Who did he create the tree for? Who did he create lucifer for? Who did he create Eve for?
God may or may not be aware, and may or may not have intended anything.
I do not think it matters.
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GrilledCheez
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god as a philosophical abstract is kind of lame. What's the point?
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Allstarslacker
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What's the point of anything?
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Shimatta33
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Poop.
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Eager_Igraine
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Allstarslacker posted:
Does a biblical perspective have to be literal?
I think what he's getting at is there is a Divine Law or Morality if you believe in the Eden story. These, or the commandments for instance, are not subjective.
Right.
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Coriolus
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Before we ate from the tree, we weren't men. Eve and lucifer (lightbringer) saved us from a meaningless existence.
holy jesus lover batman
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