Groucho48
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Karl Marx was a Prophet of the First Order
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These examples will suffice. What do they prove? The apathy of the privileged constituencies. And this apathy, what proves it? That they have outlived themselves — that they have lost every interest in their own political existence. This is in no wise apathy against politics in general, but against a species of politics, the result of which, for the most part, can only consist in helping the Tories to oust the Whigs, or the Whigs to conquer the Tories. The constituencies feel instinctively that the decision lies no longer either with Parliament, or with the making of Parliament. Who repealed the Corn Laws? Assuredly not the voters who had elected a Protectionist Parliament, still less the Protectionist Parliament itself, but only and exclusively the pressure from without. In this pressure from without, in other means of influencing Parliament than by voting, a great portion even of electors now believe. They consider the hitherto lawful mode of voting as an antiquated formality, but from the moment Parliament should make front against the pressure from without, and dictate laws to the nation in the sense of its narrow constituencies, they would join the general assault against the whole antiquated system of machinery.
The bribery and intimidation practised by the Tories were, then, merely violent experiments for bringing back to life dying electoral bodies which have become incapable of production, and which can no longer create decisive electoral results and really national Parliaments. And the result? The old Parliament was dissolved, because at the end of its career it had dissolved into sections which brought each other to a complete stand-still. The new Parliament begins where the old one ended; it is paralytic from the hour of its birth.
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Tych2
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A hero of yours?
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Sin_of_Onin
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Marx's work was very important in labor economics and understanding history.
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Cawlin
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Karl Marx was a Prophet of the First Order
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Karl Marx had amazing insights about SOME aspects of humanity and human nature. He had pathetically little understanding of other aspects of it or was willfully ignorant about it.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Karl Marx was a Prophet of the First Order
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He tried to invent a completely new economy and system of government.
Ironically in the end it seems that he will be proven more right than wrong, simply way way way ahead of his time.
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Modeeb
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Karl Marx was a Prophet of the First Order
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Ill bet there are very few here who have studied Marx. He is one of the most profound thinkers of the ages.
A spectre is haunting Europe -- the spectre of communism. All the powers of old Europe have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Pope and Tsar, Metternich and Guizot, French Radicals and German police-spies Marx
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Yukishiro1
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Marx's work was very important in labor economics and understanding history.
Yeah. Nobody but idiots denies this. He was a titantic intellectual and historical figure.
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__Bonk__
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He is a prophet of doom. Millions suffered and died because of his ideas
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Sin_of_Onin
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Many have suffered due to tyrants who sold themselves as followers of Marx but were nothing of the sort.
Many have benefited due to his work and his ideas.
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Blue_arrow
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Karl Marx was a Prophet of the First Order
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http://teleprompterpresident.typepad.com/.a/6a0105349f4348970b01156fc77ae7970b-pi
There is only one way to kill capitalism...by taxes, taxes and more taxes.
- Karl Marx
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Sea_of_inK
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he never said that 
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AzureTyger
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The combined intellectual weight of a thousand Ayn Rands could not balance the scale with Marx.
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_Enkidu_
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It was the first serious attempt to deconstruct social and economic systems and rebuild them using scientific methods, not surprising how many things Marx and Engels got right. Even the elements I would quibble with were probably borne out of lack of familiarity with the new paradigm of knowledge.
Marx actually thought this was all there was to know about the social construction of economies. 
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reesescups
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AzureTyger posted:
The combined intellectual weight of a thousand Ayn Rands could not balance the scale with Marx.
I could tip the scale against Marx's fat ass with one easy reference.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
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Modeeb
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I never tire of this Monty Python's Philosopher Football
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_Enkidu_
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Modeeb posted:
I never tire of this Monty Python's Philosopher Football
Marx was all about those things, too Reese. Well, except the whole creator delusion, but he was writing a few generation later and learned people were already moving past that superstition.
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reesescups
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_Enkidu_ posted:
Marx was all about those things, too Reese.
Marx believed in the importance of individual liberty?
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Manegarm
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Marx is the father of Social Democracy which is the most pragmatic and useful ideology there is, it's left leaning centrist in it's form it both takes care of the needs of the people and the needs of those who wish to trade and create wealth.
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Sin_of_Onin
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reesescups posted:
_Enkidu_ posted:
Marx was all about those things, too Reese.
Marx believed in the importance of individual liberty?
The entire basis of Marx is Democracy. The idea of a tyrant running a government that controls everything is totally opposite of what he had in mind.
He did believe in the capacity of government to make decisions that it is not good at making and assumed that the will of the people could be transfered to the government more effectively.
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AzureTyger
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Marx and Jefferson are both products of the Enlightement.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Jefferson predicted many of the same problems as Marx did and had proposed solutions that were so ridiculous that no one even bothered to try them. He also owned slaves.
Both were visionaries that could be discounted because of their faults by people who can't see past them to see the brilliance of what they did.
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Tych2
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He was so dreamy. 
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reesescups
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Pretty confident that Marx abhorred the idea of individualism, actually I think that's what initially separated him from the Hegel disciples, which is what set him off on his path eventually giving us Das Capital...
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_Enkidu_
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Unlike our discussion in the other thread, I completely agree with Onin here. Marx and Jefferson made mistakes by our modern standards, but they were clearly considered normal by these same standards when they lived. Even the liking the mochachino thing Jefferson had going on, those things happened.
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Sin_of_Onin
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reesescups posted:
Pretty confident that Marx abhorred the idea of individualism, actually I think that's what initially separated him from the Hegel disciples, which is what set him off on his path eventually giving us Das Capital...
Das Kapital is in large part about the nature of the ownership of the means of production. Individual ownership of the means of production is counter to ideals like Indpendence in his world view.
His position is based on the idea that a small group of people will own the means of production and amass great power and wealth while other simply work. This pits these two groups against one another and turns Democracy into a conflict between the power of people versus the power of money.
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Yukishiro1
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Marx's contribution to world history was his diagnosis of the problems with capitalist economies, not his solutions.
Ironically, it was probably his own work that stopped his predictions from coming to pass. He didn't properly account for the fact that the capitalist classes would read and understand his work and decide to buy off the proletariat rather than exploit it to the point of revolution.
Marx created the world we live in today as much as almost any other single person.
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_Enkidu_
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reesescups posted:
Pretty confident that Marx abhorred the idea of individualism, actually I think that's what initially separated him from the Hegel disciples, which is what set him off on his path eventually giving us Das Capital...
Not at all. Marx didn't care what vocation you chose to pursue. You're confusing how communist countries have misued central planning in the name of Marx. You could be a business owner (Marx said somebody would need to do this) or work for the business, but the key point was the distribution of profits from the business. Instead of paying somebody a wage that remains static despite great profits, everyone should receive compensation relative to their input into the work. This would not only make the workplace more equitable, it would drive workers toward excellence at their jobs. There are a few companies around that attempt some form of these core principles. Southwest Airlines is one and it's probably the reason why they seem to always do well.
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Rosaria
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
The entire basis of Marx is Democracy. The idea of a tyrant running a government that controls everything is totally opposite of what he had in mind.
He did believe in the capacity of government to make decisions that it is not good at making and assumed that the will of the people could be transfered to the government more effectively.
Yes, in a purely theoretical realm Marx is godlike. In the practical realm its those things called people that fuck it up, time after time.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Rosaria posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
The entire basis of Marx is Democracy. The idea of a tyrant running a government that controls everything is totally opposite of what he had in mind.
He did believe in the capacity of government to make decisions that it is not good at making and assumed that the will of the people could be transfered to the government more effectively.
Yes, in a purely theoretical realm Marx is godlike. In the practical realm its those things called people that fuck it up, time after time.
A capitalist Democracy can be corrupted too last time I checked.
I agree people are the problem.
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reesescups
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
I agree people are the problem.
Screw individualism, if everyone was just like you the world would be a great place...
Or put another way...
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Those pesky individuals and their damned individualism...
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Sin_of_Onin
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Well you are entitled to your confussion buttercup. Is that a big enough endorsement of individualism for you?
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Groucho48
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reesescups posted:
AzureTyger posted:
The combined intellectual weight of a thousand Ayn Rands could not balance the scale with Marx.
I could tip the scale against Marx's fat ass with one easy reference.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
That works much better as an argument against Ayn Rand than it does as an argument against Marx. Her whole philosophy revolved around her contention that all men were NOT created equal.
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reesescups
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SoO posted:
Marx embraced individualism right up to the point of where he has to acknowledge and account for an individual...
Dur Dur - you are dumb!
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Tych2
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Rand was right about one thing. All men are NOT created equal.
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reesescups
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Groucho48 posted:
reesescups posted:
AzureTyger posted:
The combined intellectual weight of a thousand Ayn Rands could not balance the scale with Marx.
I could tip the scale against Marx's fat ass with one easy reference.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
That works much better as an argument against Ayn Rand than it does as an argument against Marx. Her whole philosophy revolved around her contention that all men were NOT created equal.
Not surprising but I don't think you understand our Declaration of Independence.
It doesn't stand against Rand's beliefs, it is an expression of them. All men having equal access to life, liberty and the pursuit of Happyness, doesn't mean that all people are in fact 100% equal in ability.
HTH
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Sin_of_Onin
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reesescups posted:
SoO posted:
Marx embraced individualism right up to the point of where he has to acknowledge and account for an individual...
Dur Dur - you are dumb!
There is no doubt that Marx failed to accurately predict the motivations of people. That hardly means he did not embrace the notion of individual liberty.
What a stupid attempt at logic you just made.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
What a stupid attempt at logic I just made.
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Sin_of_Onin
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OK demonstrate logically how failing to predict the actions of individuals means one does not embrace ideas of Independence.
I could never predict just how stupid you are but I still embrace the Decleration.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
OK demonstrate logically how failing to predict the actions of individuals means one does not embrace ideas of Independence.
Do you know anything about Marx? What motivated him, his process of thought? He was anti Hegel, Hegelites picked on Marx for his stupidity and Marx got butthurt and took his ball and went home and in his bitterness tried to create a system that did away with individuals.
He didn't accept individualism at all. It's not that he forgot to include individualism into his theory, it's that he wanted to do away with individualism all together.
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Sin_of_Onin
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reesescups posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
OK demonstrate logically how failing to predict the actions of individuals means one does not embrace ideas of Independence.
Do you know anything about Marx? What motivated him, his process of thought? He was anti Hegel, Hegelites picked on Marx for his stupidity and Marx got butthurt and took his ball and went home and in his bitterness tried to create a system that did away with individuals.
He didn't accept individualism at all. It's not that he forgot to include individualism into his theory, it's that he wanted to do away with individualism all together.
So you are equating Independence to Individualism to Hegel.
Yeah...
If your only point is that Marx is not a libertarian I agree. If you want to say he is against the Decleration of Indpendence and notions of the importance of the individual you are confused.
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reesescups
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Yeah... I'm too dumb to be having this conversation...
We know...
But usually watching you stumble all over yourself is the entertaining part, which is why we sometimes put up with the pain of having a conversation with you...
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Sin_of_Onin
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Are you still equating the Decleration of Indpendence to Individualism?
As long as you are you are a confused idiot.
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reesescups
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Not at all, I was equating it with the mating ethics of Ants...
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Groucho48
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Marx had a John Donne-ish vision of individuality. No man is an island. That individuality is best given scope in a community where the individual respects and is part of the community and the community respects and is a part of the individual. There are problems with this, of course. But there are also problems with the Ayn Rand concept that everyone IS an island.
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Sin_of_Onin
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I am sorry but the position that Marx doesn't like the Decleration because he disagreed with Hegel is comically stupid.
Like I said the basis of Marx is Democracy and the fear of the few dominating the many.
Obviously if this is the prediction then we must weigh the freedom of those in power with those without it. The basis of freedom has two major components, power in government and power in the economy. This is why he is obsessed with Democracy and the ownership of the means of production.
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Snarf_Igraine
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I think it is easy at first glance to say Marx was against individualism, however Marx believed that communal equality constituted the necessary precursor for the flourishing of free individuals. He repeatedly championed individual self-realization and should be the standard against which social relations should be judged.
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__Bonk__
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Marx was looking to correct the ills of unregulated predatory capitalism at the time. Those ills for the most part were fixed without his radical fail solutions
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Yukishiro1
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__Bonk__ posted:
Marx was looking to correct the ills of unregulated predatory capitalism at the time. Those ills for the most part were fixed without his radical fail solutions
Not quite true. They were for the most part fixed BECAUSE the alternative was revolution.
Marx's biggest failing in terms of his historical predictions was failing to predict that the capitalist class was smart enough to give bread and circuses to the working class to avoid revolution.
Don't kid yourself. If we hadn't had the progressive revolution of the late 19th and early 20th centuries there WOULD have been real revolutions in most if not all the developed, industrialized countries of the world.
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