Taliesihne
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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He's gotten his ass kicked in two straight states.
It's looking like the race will all but be over after South Carolina.
His only chance at the presidency is a third party run. And that chance is slim to none (and slim just left town.) A third party run in reality will just split the conservative vote. (I'm sure there are some democratic voters in his ranks, but statistically speaking Ron Paul's base is primarily republicans\conservatives).
This is likely his last run at an attempt for president and his congressional career can't last much longer (He is currently 76 years old).
I just don't get the Hulabaloo over his 17 point thrashing by Romney in NH. Is the media trying to manufacture something interesting out of what is becoming a predictable Republican primary race?
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Aerlinthian
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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You don't understand the forces of momentum at work.
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Brother_Tempus
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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Taliesihne posted:
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Taliesihne
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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It looks like his campaign is essentially over.
He's losing less badly then expected, but he he is still losing.
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Sin_of_Onin
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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I find RP to be a clown of epic proportions but there is no doubt that he has done very well. He is not the same breed as the other candidates so he is really out of place in the primary. His politics are not the politics to win the primary but establish the fact that there is a demand out there for a candidate like him.
The fact that this group will end up being ignored helps to highlight the problems in our system IMO.
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Taliesihne
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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Whether or not they are ignored is up to them really.
They'll get lots of attention if they go third party.
They'll also hand Obama the presidency.
What's more important? The message or power?
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Allstarslacker
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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Both sides use the power to do the same things.
So I'd say the message.
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Sin_of_Onin
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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Once again that seems to be a demonstration of a flaw in our system.
If one of the major enemies of libertarians is the two party system and the power of money I think they are winning. Romney is the big money candidate of the right and Obama is the big money candidate of the left.
I am tempted to vote for him just to emphasize my displeasure with the system.
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Kjarhall
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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Aerlinthian posted:
You don't understand the forces of momentum at work.
This is the sad part. Pauls followers believe there is momentum. He's going to get the same % in every state, because those are his zealot faithful. The fact that it's more than 10% is deluding them into thinking there's a chance.
The same thing happened with Perot, and he had less  .
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Moe_Nox
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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You know those actors that you watch and think 'he's got potential' but they never win an oscar. Just before they die they are gifted a lifetime achievement award.
The buzz around Ron Paul is his consolation prize before he goes to pasture.
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Aerlinthian
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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The more the establishment digs in, the more clear it is that they don't understand the forces at work.
The ironic part is that Dr Paul has been telling you people right along what those forces are.
You're not listening.
To him, or us.
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Modeeb
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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It's all spin.
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Seething199
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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he's a very much non-mainstream candidate and most of his ideas set the established way of doing things on their head. and he's in second place. i'd say that's a big deal.
he's not going to win. but it's clear that the people fed up with the bullshit system of electing clones regardless of party are approaching a critical mass.
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Moe_Nox
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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Did you ever think that maybe we aren't the blind sheep in the middle that you think you are trying to educate, but rather we have all been on the opposing side all along?
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Kjarhall
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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Aerlinthian posted:
The more the establishment digs in, the more clear it is that they don't understand the forces at work.
The ironic part is that Dr Paul has been telling you people right along what those forces are.
You're not listening.
To him, or us.
Falling back on a trite excuse that is the built in crutch of any third party candidate is weak and easy.
He's just a bad candidate, because although he has the right general message, but he falls apart when you get to specifics. His followers either can't face up to that, or are willing to live with it, but it's apparent that most people don't want that.
It's surprising because it's not dissimilar from Obama and his "Change" theme, and i'd bet that most Paul followers understood the 'good in general, specifics fail' idea then.
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paulg_68
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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People embrace the establishment. Because they do, the establishment candidates can be wrong about 100 things and that's okay. Everyone has some warts right?
Ron Paul is anti establishment. If people can find 10 things wrong with him, well that just makes him too dangerous to take a chance on.
When people criticize Ron Paul, it's always just about Ron Paul. They never compare him to their establishment candidate because if they did, they'd see that their guy was 10 times worse.
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Aerlinthian
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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You have to be a liar or a moron to compare Obama to Paul. Paul has been very specific for a long time.
We aren't the ones in denial, you are. You deny that big government is a serious problem. You deny that America has failed at being the worlds policeman. In spite of pretending otherwise, you repeatedly deny that we have fallen prey to corporatists, fascists, military industrial complex, extreme anti American ideals and a nation sliding under the water for having an insurmountable debt burden, the volume of which has never been seen before in human history.
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Ptilk
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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He is helpful to the media in that they can create a story about him that gives them a reason to talk for a couple of the 24 hours they are on air blathering.
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ZigmundZag
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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Didn't Ron Paul recently say in an interview when asked if he saw himself in the White House "Not really, but we're doing better than we were four years ago"?
He knows he's not destined for the presidency. Right now his best move is to gather up enough delegates to have some leverage at the convention.
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Seething199
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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ron paul is at best a bridge to the next election. obama got the support of a lot of disenchanted voters. sadly, he turned out to be a clone of everything they were disenchanted with. but ron paul is continuing to build on the disenchantment. maybe in 4 years a real candidate will show up that can do something with all of that.
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Kjarhall
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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Aerlinthian posted:
You have to be a liar or a moron to compare Obama to Paul. Paul has been very specific for a long time.
We aren't the ones in denial, you are. You deny that big government is a serious problem. You deny that America has failed at being the worlds policeman. In spite of pretending otherwise, you repeatedly deny that we have fallen prey to corporatists, fascists, military industrial complex, extreme anti American ideals and a nation sliding under the water for having an insurmountable debt burden, the volume of which has never been seen before in human history.
I didn't compare Obama to Paul, i compared the messages vs. solutions. I'm sorry you didn't comprehend that.
No one that i know is denying most of the things you said (except maybe to the degree you take them and some of your whackadoodle zionist/facist/statist crap). When will you guys get it through your thick skulls that most people think Paul sounds like he will make these things worse instead of better? Just because he can identify problems, doesn't mean his solutions are good. And maybe even worse than where we're at.
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Kjarhall
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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If Ron Paul helps birth a viable third party, he will have made a bigger contribution to America than the disaster he would be as President.
Then his basic ideals can evolve with that party until they have a presentable candidate.
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Yukishiro1
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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You will be able to tell whether Paul is serious or not by whether he runs as an independent after he loses the Republican nomination. If he does he could get at least 15% of the vote given the disenchantment with both Obama and whoever his opponent is likely to be. He wouldn't have a chance of winning, but he would have a very good chance of spoiling the race.
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Cawlin
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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The concept of "third party" candidates needs to be legitimized - it has to start somewhere. Paul is at the very least a step towards this process - if as Yuki suggests, he runs as an independent even if he loses the Repub nomination.
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theredkay1
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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Nobody ever makes it clear why a third party is an improvement....it always seems entirely hope based.
Money and self interest seem to play a big role in what happens in Washington....a third party doesnt change that.
Procedural gimmicks allow a minority to slow and stop progress on issues big and small....its not clear why a 3rd party would change this either.
If Ron Paul and his merry band of followers were to kick start a third party that takes a massive leap forward and gains 15% of the seats in Congress....what changes? Another group can grind things to a halt.....and they still face the same procedural limitations on getting anything accomplished.
I think people mistakenly think that they dont like anybody in congress and if only a third party full of people they liked...'regular people', not washington fat cats, then everything would change. But the third party will end up attracting all the same people that everybody hates to vote for right now.
/shrug
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Cawlin
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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theredkay1 posted:
Nobody ever makes it clear why a third party is an improvement....it always seems entirely hope based.
Money and self interest seem to play a big role in what happens in Washington....a third party doesnt change that.
Procedural gimmicks allow a minority to slow and stop progress on issues big and small....its not clear why a 3rd party would change this either.
If Ron Paul and his merry band of followers were to kick start a third party that takes a massive leap forward and gains 15% of the seats in Congress....what changes? Another group can grind things to a halt.....and they still face the same procedural limitations on getting anything accomplished.
I think people mistakenly think that they dont like anybody in congress and if only a third party full of people they liked...'regular people', not washington fat cats, then everything would change. But the third party will end up attracting all the same people that everybody hates to vote for right now.
/shrug
Obviously it depends on what the "third party" stands for. Right now you have two ideological choices and candidates which vary little from that ideology. You can be certain that more people are poorly represented by either of these ideological templates than are well represented by either of them.
A third party represents some mixture or some middle ground between the two choices theoretically. In an era where it is functionally difficult to discern between the policies of either party in actual practice, people want to hear from others who may fly in the face of the status quo.
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Sin_of_Onin
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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The problems with a two party system mostly deal with the legislature. With only two parties the people are less likely to be able to really establish what they want when choosing between two things.
For example imagine choosing what pie you want to eat. Do you think your taste in pie would be better established when choosing between two pies or 10?
Once this is done the legislature itself has to establish things like committee leadership based on something more than which party happens to be the majority. A lot more emphasis is placed on listening to multiple groups and the room for nuances in opinion is promoted.
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Moe_Nox
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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Start somewhere? There has always been room for a 3rd party. Hell Ross Perot was leading both Bush Sr and Clinton in the polls at one point back in 92.
The hunger for a third party is there, and has been for a very long time.
In the end the people that claim to be mavericks are all watered down party loyalists.
Ron Paul will not run as an independent, he will toe the party line and support Romney when its time.
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Yukishiro1
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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The idea is the more parties you have the more options for differing viewpoints you have.
I think your doom and glooming is somewhat overblown. When you look at what happens in Europe there are definitely minority parties who offer a meaningful difference from the more mainstream, larger parties (typically two) that tend to dominate most countries.
A multiple party system introduces problems not faced in a two-party system - like coalition government but it also introduces new dynamics - like coalition government.
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Seething199
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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the obvious point is that neither party has any interest in making this country better. they're just humping the status quo and making rich people richer. both parties.
there's obvious room for a party that is fiscally prudent (unlike dems) and not dominated by backwards dipshit social idiocy (unlike republicans).
what it will probably take is some dude with more money than he knows what to do with forcing candidates through the process and into higher positions of government to legitimize the party. we can only hope is that guy isn't an asshole.
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MayorShade
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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Moe_Nox posted:
Ron Paul will not run as an independent, he will toe the party line and support Romney when its time.
Doubt it. He really doesn't have much if anything to gain from doing so. And he simply just doesn't have much if anything to lose from running as an independent. No matter where his political path leads him, that path will not likely last much longer. I am not convinced that he gives two flying fcks if the republican nominee wins the presidential election (assuming that he is not the nominee). Does anyone disagree with what I've said? If so, explain why.
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Taliesihne
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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His son is a junior Republican Senator Mayor.
It's no longer just his own political future he's playing with.
*Edit - Don't be naive in believing that the RNC won't use Rand to get to Ron either. It's the presidency at stake*
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theredkay1
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
The problems with a two party system mostly deal with the legislature. With only two parties the people are less likely to be able to really establish what they want when choosing between two things.
For example imagine choosing what pie you want to eat. Do you think your taste in pie would be better established when choosing between two pies or 10?
Once this is done the legislature itself has to establish things like committee leadership based on something more than which party happens to be the majority. A lot more emphasis is placed on listening to multiple groups and the room for nuances in opinion is promoted.
Maybe it will make people feel better....
But right now I can choose from 10 pies. There is no restriction on pies with orange peels from jumping up on the counter for me to choose from, there is no restriction on me going in search of a pie with orange peels and voting for it.
An orange peel pie was selected by a small group of people in Texas. So obviously there is no real impediment to people everywhere choosing orange peel pie. The problem isnt that apple and cherry are secretely pushing levers to keep orange peel pie from being chosen, the problem is that people tend to pick cherry and apple. Allowing a third pie stand will cause most people to vote for an apple or cherry...they will keep rejecting the orange peel pie that they have been rejecting for years.
WIthout a change in the voting process or the legislature process, the new 3 party congress will look exactly like the two party congress.
The voting process in Euro countries with strong multi-party systems is completely different than the US voting system right?
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Sin_of_Onin
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I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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theredkay1 posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
The problems with a two party system mostly deal with the legislature. With only two parties the people are less likely to be able to really establish what they want when choosing between two things.
For example imagine choosing what pie you want to eat. Do you think your taste in pie would be better established when choosing between two pies or 10?
Once this is done the legislature itself has to establish things like committee leadership based on something more than which party happens to be the majority. A lot more emphasis is placed on listening to multiple groups and the room for nuances in opinion is promoted.
Maybe it will make people feel better....
But right now I can choose from 10 pies. There is no restriction on pies with orange peels from jumping up on the counter for me to choose from, there is no restriction on me going in search of a pie with orange peels and voting for it.
An orange peel pie was selected by a small group of people in Texas. So obviously there is no real impediment to people everywhere choosing orange peel pie. The problem isnt that apple and cherry are secretely pushing levers to keep orange peel pie from being chosen, the problem is that people tend to pick cherry and apple. Allowing a third pie stand will cause most people to vote for an apple or cherry...they will keep rejecting the orange peel pie that they have been rejecting for years.
WIthout a change in the voting process or the legislature process, the new 3 party congress will look exactly like the two party congress.
The voting process in Euro countries with strong multi-party systems is completely different than the US voting system right?
The proof is in the puddin.
I am suggesting a change btw. I thought that was clear.
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Run, Forrest! Run!
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Voodoo-Dahl
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Subject:
I don't understand why Ron Paul is being congratulated
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Everybody gets a medal at the Special Olympics the Republican primary has become.
Seriously, if Republitwats are to be believed they think another four years of Obama will be the end of the country. And these fools, crazies, and common grifters are the best they have to offer?
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