Ptilk
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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It doesn't work. Ever. Not once.
Of course it is always popular to talk about government spending less, it sounds great and makes the person doing it feel all superior and morally righteous and shit, but in reality....overall it sucks. It doesn't reduce the deficit, it doesn't create jobs, it doesn't help the economy. In fact, it does exactly the opposite of all those things. Proven, historical, fact.
If you believe in austerity as a way to help the economy or to reduce the deficit. You believe stupidity.
Just sayin.....
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Taliesihne
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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Well, you believe in a lie too.
The people preaching austerity are preaching austerity for thee, but not for me.
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Aerlinthian
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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I agree, at 15 trillion in, I say go whole hog now. The sooner the final default comes, the better.
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Allstarslacker
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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Wasn't there a study posted here not too long ago that showed cutting spending was more effective at reducing deficits than raising taxes?
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Brother_Tempus
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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Ptilk posted:
It doesn't work. Ever. Not once. .
Fiat money never works, ever, not once but yet the majority here defend it .... and for the same reason why austerity is defended as well .. becuase it doesn;t hurt the sacred cow of government.
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Ptilk
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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The vast majority of the deficit was created by the so called "Bush tax cuts". Without those, 5 Trillion dollars of our current deficit would not exist even based upon the economy that actually happened since they were enacted.
That isn't even factoring in how much was added by the fact that those cuts destroyed the economy and led to our current depression...which is responsible for another couple of Trillion.
Without those tax cuts, which had negligible impact on the vast majority of the countries tax bills, and the devastation to the economy they created, in concert with stupid deregulation and a couple of idiotic wars .....the national debt would be on it's way to being eliminated.
All it takes to end the historic deficits we have been incurring since 2002...is a tiny adjustment to tax rates. If you couple that with reasonable cuts to insanely high "defense" spending and obscenely high "homeland security" spending and some cuts to stupid and redundant "assistance programs".....this country could easily have a balanced budget.
Everything most of you believe....is based upon stupidity and lies.
Some people believe these stupid things because they have been spoon fed propaganda spewed forth by so many "think tanks". Some people believe them because they want to pay lower taxes and think that it's evil for any government to spend any money. Most people believe them because they are stupid and don't know a god damn thing about what they are talking about.
Just sayin....
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Allstarslacker
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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I can't help but feel you also don't no a goddamn thing you're talking about.
That's not to say you're wrong. Just that you don't know if you're right or not.
Perhaps if you showed some evidence, but I know you won't. You've chosen your side, and once you've chosen a side being "right" means more than being right.
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Ptilk
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This is a call for people who believe in austerity to check their facts.
Why does anyone believe that cutting spending in draconian fashion cuts deficits? Is there any evidence to support such an opinion? Not a think tanks claim that it "will" do so, but actual historic facts that show it has happened. Or, as is the case back here in reality, do historical facts show that GDP and income (and thus taxes) decline more from such cuts than the cuts save themselves. (Hint--the answer to that last one is yes).
Feel free to learn and to think for yourselves. The journey might enable you to prove me wrong and whatever thrill that will give you, or it might just show you a different way to think about economics and government spending. One based in reality and historical fact and not the claims of some guy about what such austerity should do.
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Allstarslacker
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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I think the burden of proof in this thread falls on you.
If you're not up to the task, or not interested that's fine.
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Brother_Tempus
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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Ptilk posted:
The vast majority of the deficit was created by the so called "Bush tax cuts"
And there';s where Ptilk went off the rails ... defending fiat money just like those who defend austerity
It's someone else's fault, it can;t be the government's fault ...
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Brother_Tempus
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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Ptilk posted:
This is a call for people who believe in austerity to check their facts.
Why does anyone believe that cutting spending in draconian fashion cuts deficits?
Why does anyone believe printing more and more money backed by nothing works?
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Ptilk
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I have nothing to prove in this thread.
It's like asking someone to prove that gravity exists. I'm simply pointing out that anyone who believes in austerity as a solution to deficits....is ignorant of reality.
Continue to be ignorant if you want, or investigate why you believe in the stupidity if you want. Your choice. Not my problem. All the austerity talk will eventually die down anyway. It always does, always will....because it can't stand up to the facts.
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Tych2
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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Ptilk posted:
It always does, always will....because it can't stand up to the facts.
I think that's what he is asking. What are the facts.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Austerity by itself does nothing. Austerity has to be combined with increases in production. This is possible if government spending is crowding out investment or hurting investment in some way. For example a country can have so much debt that it has to import capital. This in turn makes their currency stronger which undermines their production.
Debt spending and trade go hand in hand so austerity is a very important part of any plan to address production in a country that has more imports than exports.
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NuEM
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Strangely enough even the experts who devoted their lifetime figuring things like this out seem to be split in the advise they give. What do we do?
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Ptilk
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Reasonable spending cuts aren't austerity.
Austerity is a policy of lowering spending AND cutting benefits and public services.
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Sin_of_Onin
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A long time ago mercantilism was vilified in economics to the point that it was almost written off as worthy of discussion. Meanwhile in reality it is constantly being used to varying degrees. I just think it is very hard for an American economist to tell a President they have to be more mercantilist and that the only way to counter the mercantilist practices of nations like Germany and China is to be mercantilist as well.
The need to have these conversations increased when Europe and Asia rebounded and the US went off the gold standard.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Ptilk posted:
Reasonable spending cuts aren't austerity.
Austerity is a policy of lowering spending AND cutting benefits and public services.
So your definition of austerity is that they are unreasonable cuts by defintiion?
Way to take one from paul's playbook.
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Ptilk
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No my definition is what I actually stated above.
Ptilk posted:
Austerity is a policy of lowering spending AND cutting benefits and public services.
But you are right I shouldn't have put the word reasonable in the first line. Stupid of me as it is meaningless and simply opened the door to posts like yours. Deserved it. My bad.
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Sin_of_Onin
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My bad for assuming you were logically consistant from one sentence to the next. I forgot who I was talking to.
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Rosaria
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
A long time ago mercantilism was vilified in economics to the point that it was almost written off as worthy of discussion. Meanwhile in reality it is constantly being used to varying degrees. I just think it is very hard for an American economist to tell a President they have to be more mercantilist and that the only way to counter the mercantilist practices of nations like Germany and China is to be mercantilist as well.
The need to have these conversations increased when Europe and Asia rebounded and the US went off the gold standard.
I'm sure those conversations happen privately, and fruitlessly, but they are still more or less written off in public discourse. There is no acceptable explanation as to why that is.
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Ptilk
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Guess you wont be looking to see why you believe in austerity then. Your choice.
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There is no quicker way for a government to drop GDP than to cut spending. You'll see a dollar for dollar drop at a minimum, and it's a near certainty that a money multiplier effect will make it even worse. That said, you can also get to a point where spending more money (or failing to take cuts) will have a worse cumulative effect than the dollar loss in GDP.
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Sin_of_Onin
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ZigmundZag posted:
There is no quicker way for a government to drop GDP than to cut spending. You'll see a dollar for dollar drop at a minimum, and it's a near certainty that a money multiplier effect will make it even worse. That said, you can also get to a point where spending more money (or failing to take cuts) will have a worse cumulative effect than the dollar loss in GDP.
Borrowing money also has a negative effect with a multiplier.
So it is not just the impact of austerity that is in question but the impact of where the money came from to pay for that consumption in the first place.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Ptilk posted:
Guess you wont be looking to see why you believe in austerity then. Your choice.
So circular reasoning was too hard for you so you have resorted to complete nonsense. Congrats on sinking lower.
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cabbyman
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Austerity is great and we should do more of it.
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What happens to the people that austerity leaves behind? Do we ignore them and hope they just die or fade away?
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Ptilk
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Not sure what your problem is, but I already said using the word reasonable made no sense and was stupid. Go on with your bad self though.
The current mania for austerity in governmental budgets is based upon ignorance and/or stupidity and not based upon any factual evidence of it's success in decreasing governmental budget deficits.
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I am pretty sure that Austerity also includes things like reforming your social services so you are not, as is the case in Greece, paying 10s of thousands of dead people retirement benefits. The massive fraud and waste caused by operating such large programs through a government bureaucracy can be staggering and most certainly can help countries swimming in debt if resolved even if only to a "decent" level.
For instance, Medicare fraud, just the fraud amounts to close to 70 billion dollars a year. That is enough to put every uninsured American in top notch private health care programs and still have plenty left over.
If the US government simply cut the rate of growth in most of its spending programs and departments to 2-3% in most cases this would save 100s of billions of dollars.
Austerity is as much about simply stopping abuse/fraud/mismanagement as it is killing programs that have proven to useless and simply terrible giveaways. This includes corporate welfare.
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Bowlartz posted:
For instance, Medicare fraud, just the fraud amounts to close to 70 billion dollars a year. That is enough to put every uninsured American in top notch private health care programs and still have plenty left over.
If the US government simply cut the rate of growth in most of its spending programs and departments to 2-3% in most cases this would save 100s of billions of dollars.
Catching the Medicare fraud will eat some portion of the money, and you will never catch all of it. The fraud prevention methods will also cause denials or delays of non-fraud cases. It is always a balancing act. There is a chance we might already be at an ideal equilibrium of such factors as there are already some anti-fraud measures in place.
Cutting growth like that can work for some services, but not all. Some programs only need to grow with inflation so that could be reasonable to keep up. A lot of other programs need to keep up with both inflation and population growth. So limiting them to 2-3% would be a year-to-year cut in services per person. I'm guessing that most of the services that have budgets big enough to matter for this are the ones that need to keep up with population. 
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Sin_of_Onin
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Bowlartz posted:
I am pretty sure that Austerity also includes things like reforming your social services so you are not, as is the case in Greece, paying 10s of thousands of dead people retirement benefits. The massive fraud and waste caused by operating such large programs through a government bureaucracy can be staggering and most certainly can help countries swimming in debt if resolved even if only to a "decent" level.
For instance, Medicare fraud, just the fraud amounts to close to 70 billion dollars a year. That is enough to put every uninsured American in top notch private health care programs and still have plenty left over.
If the US government simply cut the rate of growth in most of its spending programs and departments to 2-3% in most cases this would save 100s of billions of dollars.
Austerity is as much about simply stopping abuse/fraud/mismanagement as it is killing programs that have proven to useless and simply terrible giveaways. This includes corporate welfare.
Paying more in fraud prevention is not austerity. It is actually a budget add with the hope of a net budget cut.
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Ptilk posted:
Not sure what your problem is, but I already said using the word reasonable made no sense and was stupid. Go on with your bad self though.
The current mania for austerity in governmental budgets is based upon ignorance and/or stupidity and not based upon any factual evidence of it's success in decreasing governmental budget deficits.
My problem is the entire premise of your argument. You are making factual claims while not even pretending to provide facts. You are also unable to even engage in a theoretical conversation.
There is certainly a conversation worth having regarding budget cuts but you don't seem like you want to have one. Instead you resort to circular reasoning and nonsense.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Paying more in fraud prevention is not austerity. It is actually a budget add with the hope of a net budget cut.
I am pretty sure you could just cut 40 billion from the Medicare budget and tell them to find the funds to improve their fraud/waste management to cover the costs. There is no real incentive for them to get overly tough right now, no one is getting fired. Cutting their budget, IE some of their jobs, at the very least is motivation to be better with the money they are getting.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Bowlartz posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Paying more in fraud prevention is not austerity. It is actually a budget add with the hope of a net budget cut.
I am pretty sure you could just cut 40 billion from the Medicare budget and tell them to find the funds to improve their fraud/waste management to cover the costs. There is no real incentive for them to get overly tough right now, no one is getting fired. Cutting their budget, IE some of their jobs, at the very least is motivation to be better with the money they are getting.
That is not how it works. They are on the hook for paying out for services whether it is budget or not. The capacity to actually hire people to do fraud prevention would have to be established in the budget.
It is possible the CBO will say they can budget less for services but there is no doubt that an add has to be approved.
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Ummm...yeah....adding additional fraud prevention measures is definately not part of the Austerity movement.
Cutting govt spending at a time of slow inflation and falling interest rates just doesnt accomplish anything and right now its counterproductive. There is no market mechanism that improves because the gov't slashes spending.
In a different time and place, 'Austerity' might free up scarce labor or commodities that can be sucked up by a healthy market, it would allow lower interest rates from the Fed without fear of inflation. But we arent in this time and place right now.
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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No. I am asking people who support austerity if they have any reason for doing so other than, "It sounds good" or "this guy said it would work". I've stated that there isn't any evidence that austerity in a national budget has worked in the past to decrease a national deficit. I certainly can't find any. Not even by the people who proclaim loudest and most "expertly" that it does. Should be an easy enough thing to disprove my assertion. Or to discuss it in greater depth if you feel like it.
I admitted my wording was stupid in one post, and not content to take that and go on, you started spewing insults. Dont remember you being that type of ass , so I was just wondering what your problem was. I never placed you in the ranks of that type. No biggie.
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sweeny_comodore
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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When my cc debt gets a little high, the first thing I do is cut my spending.
How can you not think that would help?
Are you twlling me I'm supposed to continue spending my money on toys and bars nights while running to my employer asking for more money to pay my debts?
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Scarne
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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Individuals are not national governments and do not behave the same way.
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Ptilk
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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Not quite like that for any but the most ardent austerity proponents.
More like you are paying for health insurance, your kids college education, your parents nursing home bill, house payments, car payments, food, electricity, a karate class, a hand gun class, and bubba's gun of the month club, and a bunch of other things that aren't as beneficial to what you need and/or want...but in total add up to about 15% of all the other stuff.
Now your choices are to cut out all the spending you can, but even if you cut all the "other stuff" you still aren't bringing in enough money to cover your bills.
Your choices now are to cut more stuff, even stuff you believe is important (like eating) or look at the fact that you could bring in more cash instead of cutting stuff but understand that some claim that by bringing in more cash you are increasing the prices of everything your already buy.
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sweeny_comodore
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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I dont care how you look at it.
If you can't afford your debts tjen you have over extendrd and neef to cut all but the most important.
We can start with politicians salaries.
They should never make more than the average in the district they represent.
If I can't have universal healthcare, neither can they. And its long past time they start ip their own 401k instead of making me pay for it.
TSA is another good cut.
War/military spending is more good cuts.
Then figure out what's left and where to go from there. If taxes still need to be raised after the fat is trimmed then we discuss it.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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Ptilk posted:
No. I am asking people who support austerity if they have any reason for doing so other than, "It sounds good" or "this guy said it would work". I've stated that there isn't any evidence that austerity in a national budget has worked in the past to decrease a national deficit. I certainly can't find any. Not even by the people who proclaim loudest and most "expertly" that it does. Should be an easy enough thing to disprove my assertion. Or to discuss it in greater depth if you feel like it.
I admitted my wording was stupid in one post, and not content to take that and go on, you started spewing insults. Dont remember you being that type of ass , so I was just wondering what your problem was. I never placed you in the ranks of that type. No biggie.
Is there any example of defecits being reduced without cutting the budget?
If your goal is to reduce the defecit then there is zero doubt that cutting spending helps. Like I said before the major question is the economic benefit of not taxing and not borrowing to pay for the spending being cut.
In order to start talking about the facts to consider you have to understand why context matters.
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theredkay1
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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sweeny_comodore posted:
When my cc debt gets a little high, the first thing I do is cut my spending.
How can you not think that would help?
Are you twlling me I'm supposed to continue spending my money on toys and bars nights while running to my employer asking for more money to pay my debts?
Aggregates rarely behave like individuals.
Would your cutbacks on toys and liquor encourage an expansion or a contraction by the toy/liquor industries? Probably a contraction.
If your income is completely dependant on the toy/liquor industry and its employees, your spending cutbacks will affect your income.
sweeny_comodore posted:
I dont care how you look at it.
If you can't afford your debts tjen you have over extendrd and neef to cut all but the most important.
But this isnt the reality we find ourselves in. The US can afford its debt. We would be facing different options if we truly couldnt afford our debt right now.
We would also be talking about completely different options if invisible dragons had destroyed Boston and all of Virginia and were coming back for the West Coast next week. But there is no reason to enact dragon fighting measures if they are counterprodutive to economic growth and employment since this isnt actually a problem right now.
Our problems are slow growth and a lack of employment opportunities. There are no real short term or medium term debt problems visible.
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theredkay1
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
If your goal is to reduce the defecit then there is zero doubt that cutting spending helps.
There is much doubt. This blanket statement is not correct.
Budgets have two sides. The two sides will often impact each other.
A company with looming deficits probably cant help their situation by firing their production, delivery and sales staff. Although this might produce a temporary one time move in the right direction...there is much doubt whether this will actually help.
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Koneg
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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Ptilk posted:
It's magical! The lovely rainbow tree of money! See? It grows on TREES!
/joy /dance
Just keep spending it! We'll print more! 
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theredkay1
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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One of the keys to economic growth is for people to spend money.
Ive never once heard a business owner pissed off that people are spending more money at his business.
There is no finite amount of money.
0 for 2 
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Sin_of_Onin
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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theredkay1 posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
If your goal is to reduce the defecit then there is zero doubt that cutting spending helps.
There is much doubt. This blanket statement is not correct.
Budgets have two sides. The two sides will often impact each other.
A company with looming deficits probably cant help their situation by firing their production, delivery and sales staff. Although this might produce a temporary one time move in the right direction...there is much doubt whether this will actually help.
For a government a lot of spending is long term investments. Education, roads, police, defense, etc or moral imperatives, medicare, medicaid, etc.
I did not mean to suggest that all cuts in spending are good but if the goal is to reduce the defecit then there is zero doubt that cutting spending helps.
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sweeny_comodore
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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anyone who thinks its useless to reduce useless spending while trying to pay off excessive debt is a moron.
walk into your bosses office tomorrow and tell him you need to be paid more so you can continue your excessive online porn subscriptions going. see what he says.
then apply that to excessive salaries/benefits that politicians make
TSA and the rest of the free handouts from the government
....
youre right in that you probably wont save enough to cover the shortage but its definitely a start.
once the cuts are made, then you can talk about how much more you need to cover actual shortage
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ineenia
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Typical brain dead republican behavior.When times are good the first thing they want to do is cut the burden of the rich and then as soon as the economy starts to decline they want to put more of a burden on the poor and middle class.
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Crooq_Lionfang
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Austerity is stupidity.....
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Is there any example of defecits being reduced without cutting the budget?
Does it count as deficit reduction if the deficit grew slower than inflation and GDP?
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