Phlegm573
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__Bonk__
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Who did you kill?
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Elkad
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Assisted Suicide.
Technically illegal in most states. But shouldn't be.
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Halloweve
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he's a party animal!
plz stop killing people.
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Phlegm573
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(no not me... a guy i know... Pretty devious all the same)
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__Bonk__
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sure sure. We know you just offed a guy!
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paulg_68
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__Bonk__ posted:
sure sure. We know you just offed a guy!
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Taliesihne
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Guilty of nothing.
Drug dealers aren't charged with murdering junkies when they Od.
Couldn't answer the poll though - he's not guilty of a crime. I have issues using innocent in this case.
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Onslaught.
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Not anymore criminal than people who manufactured, sold or advertised the alcohol to begin with. *shrug* AKA not at all.
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Ed is guilty of helping clean up society.
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Taliesihne
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Too bad he's gonna have to do it again. 
I wish there was a way to fix women that are broken in this way, always so heartbreaking to hear about.
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Phlegm573
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Taliesihne posted:
Couldn't answer the poll though - he's not guilty of a crime. I have issues using innocent in this case.
I meant from the legal standpoint.
What I find interesting is that a zealous prosecutor could make his prima facie case for murder or manslaughter against Ed in this case. He had the means, the motive, and the opportunity. He had the murder weapon (alcohol) as well as the guilty intent. No, the victim is not exactly a charitable figure but, if Ed had pulled out a revolver and shot him, I think most people would say he is guilty of murder or manslaughter.
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Sansfear
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At first glance, I don't think he's guilty of anything, but then I started wondering about the liability of bar owners and restaurants when they knowingly give alcohol to drunks and the drunk goes out and kills themselves or someone else.
If a bar owner let someone drink themselves to death, they would probably be charged.
Is it different for individuals vs businesses?
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Onslaught.
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Even if some prosecuting attorney and judge were crazy enough to take him to trial, there is no jury on earth that would convict him.
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Taliesihne
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Phlegm573 posted:
I meant from the legal standpoint.
What I find interesting is that a zealous prosecutor could make his prima facie case for murder or manslaughter against Ed in this case. He had the means, the motive, and the opportunity. He had the murder weapon (alcohol) as well as the guilty intent. No, the victim is not exactly a charitable figure but, if Ed had pulled out a revolver and shot him, I think most people would say he is guilty of murder or manslaughter.
It's Pandora's box. There's a bigger picture at play that keeps the court system at bay imo.
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Phlegm573
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I think a lot of voters are basing their votes on the character of the victim.
A lot of murders, if not the majority, are carried out against victims of poor moral character such as rival drug dealers. It doesn't make it any less of a murder.
Edit: i'm also wondering what /tentacle or Baymeltdown have to say.
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Moe_Nox
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Yes it does.
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Elkad
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If he was doing anything other than enabling, I'd have a problem with it. Even just mixing Everclear into a lesser drink (making it stronger than the label said) would count as poisoning to me.
But just giving the guy a bottle isn't a problem. Character of the "victim" has nothing to do with it.
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__Bonk__
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Anything an Outposter asks about murder means that the Outposter has already done the deed and is looking for a way of escaping justice
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Koneg
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Unless he forced the guy to drink "Ed" would be no more guilty than the clerk at the liquor store or the bartender at the local watering hole.
The drunk is the one who decided to drink. Everything that occurred as a result of that drinking is the responsibility of the drunkard.
Case dismissed.
/gavel
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Phlegm573
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Hmm interesting. Guess I read this all wrong.
To me there is no question the world is better off without the brother-in-law. But that is not what's up for debate. It's the acttions of Ed. And it's his guilty intent for homicide, freely confessed, that is the most troublesome thing. Like I said, the character of the victim is not and should not be at issue during a murder trial, since we are trying the killer and not his victim. But that's just me.
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Koneg
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Just because "Ed" made it available, with the intent that drunk-guy drink himself into an early grave, does not make Ed responsible for the drinkers freely made choice to do just that.
You can hope for a consequence all you want - but so long as you do nothing to force that outcome you are not guilty of a crime.
Note that this doesn't mean a nasty ADA somewhere couldn't or wouldn't prosecute just to see what happens, but I doubt seriously that he'd get a guilty verdict doing so.
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Sansfear
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http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4453826,00.html
"A German court in Berlin has sentenced a bar owner to three years and five months in jail for giving a 16-year-old teenager so much alcohol that he later fell into a coma and died. "
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Friarspam
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Unless giving the adult liquor to another consenting adult is a crime, he did NOT commit a crime. The comparison is like giving someone a gun as a gift. He didn't TELL the guy to drink until he died. He just knew that the guy would not be able to resist and do it. There is really no way of knowing if the guy wouldn't have drank enough on his own nickle to die either way.
This is a lot like the fact that Missouri has no "entrapment" law. To entrap someone you'd have to get them to do something they were not predisposed to doing. Offering a drink to a drunk or non-drunk would not be entrapment because they weren't forced to consume the stuff.
The guy is guilty of being a Darwin Assistant.
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Crooq_Lionfang
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Sansfear posted:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4453826,00.html
"A German court in Berlin has sentenced a bar owner to three years and five months in jail for giving a 16-year-old teenager so much alcohol that he later fell into a coma and died. "
That case is different because it is illegal to give a 16 year old liquor in the first place
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IMHO
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How many people has Mc Donalds killed?
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RHWarrior
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I think legally he isn't guilty of anything, not under laws here at least.
Morally and ethically he did something, well, maybe borderline "bad" according to some definition, that varies from person to person. He couldn't have KNOWN the guy would drink himself to death quicker with more access to alcohol, just reasoning it had fairly high probability.
But yeah, the abusive guy did his drinking through years, possibly decades and will have to assume responsability for his own actions.
Maybe that will make you sleep easier Phlemg.
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Corfel
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There's nothing illegal in what he did
If I took donuts/cakes into work each day and some fat arse decided to eat numerous ones each day and eventually died of heart failure within a year... I wouldn't be held accountable for anything
Same idea
There's so many technical points through life as to how we could all slowly be "killing" people. Just look at cigarette companies.
As long as the deceased kept giving in to his own temptation and drinking/eating/smoking or w/e, that's no one elses fault~
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LadyGodiva.
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Legally he's innocent. I don't think a person can be held responsible for another's addiction and the consequences of that addiction. I suppose one could make the case that the victim was vulnerable and unable to make decisions for himself, but that's a real stretch. Proving he had conspired for this to kill his brother in law would be difficult to prove as well... Everclear isn't illegal and the brother in law knew what he was drinking.
It takes a special kind of addiction to kill your liver in a year. Geez. My guess is his liver was either mostly gone by that point (after years of heavy drinking, not just the Everclear) or he died of alcohol poisoning after binging
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NuEM
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Clearly murder and you'll all go to hell.
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eodoll
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I think it can be considered homicide but its a hard case to prove...
If you go to a person with a drug problem and want them to die.. So you just go there and give them heroin.. More heroin.. More heroin. Just invite them to keeping getting high on heroin. You pretty much premeditated killing them.
Scammers go to jail too.
Those nigerian guys are breaking the law.
Madoff went to jail.
You cant leglly take advantage of people when you are premeditating an end result for your personal gain.
Edit: throw in they are related and there is a million dollar life insurance policy on the alcoholics head. Is it murder then?
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_Enkidu_
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It's legal to drink in Germany at 16. Basically, if you can pay for the drink you're old enough to drink.
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Yukishiro1
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It has to do with how you interpret causation. Murder requires intent and causation. Is he really "causing" the death? There is no subterfuge or fraud involved. On the other hand, he is giving a potentially deadly drug to someone he knows is addicted to it and unable to control himself, with the intent that his gift will contribute to killing the guy.
There is no way it's manslaughter, voluntary or involuntary, because the intent to kill is there and there's nothing the law would consider heat-of-passion style provocation. It's either murder or nothing.
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Tipztoe
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Onslaught. posted:
Not anymore criminal than people who manufactured, sold or advertised the alcohol to begin with. *shrug* AKA not at all.
alcohol is legal. Agreed with as stated above.
If he were providing him with illegal drugs that would be different.
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Yukishiro1
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Tipztoe posted:
If he were providing him with illegal drugs that would be different.
I don't see why. If you sell someone a gun legally and they shoot themselves why is that different than if you sell them a gun illegally and they shoot themselves? In terms of liability for the shooting itself?
If you poison someone with a legal poison or an illegal poison I can assure you it doesn't change whether you've committed murder. The question here is entirely to do with what constitutes killing someone, not to do with the product chosen.
It really has to do with whether the alcoholic had any choice in whether he drunk the stuff.
For example, it is definitely murder if you come across someone already drunk off their ass and then give them a gallon of vodka, knowing full well they arn't in a mental state to be able to refuse it, hoping they will die, and then they do die.
This is a bit different because it happens over a period of time when the guy obviously wasn't drunk all the time. But if Ed was giving him the Everclear *when* the guy was drunk that makes it more likely to be murder.
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Kjarhall
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Innocent. While his motives were immoral, he did not force the guy to drink. The guy had multiple chances to not contribute to his death.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Depends on if Everclear is legal in that state.
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Yukishiro1
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Depends on if Everclear is legal in that state.
No it doesn't. If it's illegal he's guilty of illegal distribution but it has nothing to do with his liability for murder.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Depends on if Everclear is legal in that state.
No it doesn't. If it's illegal he's guilty of illegal distribution but it has nothing to do with his liability for murder.
1) The poll asks if he's guilty of a lesser crime.
2) If Everclear is illegal because its dangerous then it could be argued that he intentionally poisoned the man. I could see him getting electrocuted in Texas for it... If he's brown.
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cherrim
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
2) If Everclear is illegal because its dangerous then it could be argued that he intentionally poisoned the man. I could see him getting electrocuted in Texas for it... If he's brown.
I agree with Yuki that a substance does not have to be illegal in order to constitute poisoning.
You could kill someone with Tylenol and that would be murder.
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Yukishiro1
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Depends on if Everclear is legal in that state.
No it doesn't. If it's illegal he's guilty of illegal distribution but it has nothing to do with his liability for murder.
1) The poll asks if he's guilty of a lesser crime.
You win this time Paulg! 
But seriously, I thought we were talking about liability for the death. For all we know he could have bought the everclear with counterfeited money too.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Interesting legal question about murder
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cherrim posted:
Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
2) If Everclear is illegal because its dangerous then it could be argued that he intentionally poisoned the man. I could see him getting electrocuted in Texas for it... If he's brown.
I agree with Yuki that a substance does not have to be illegal in order to constitute poisoning.
You could kill someone with Tylenol and that would be murder.
Ok, so if a wife says, "drink this, its arsenic" and her husband does, would that constitute as murder?
I don't think the same could be said about Tylenol. Whether a substance is considered dangerous in any amount should weigh in to some degree imo.
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cherrim
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Ok, so if a wife says, "drink this, its arsenic" and her husband does, would that constitute as murder?
I don't think the same could be said about Tylenol. Whether a substance is considered dangerous in any amount should weigh in to some degree imo.
The husband's awareness of what he's taking is important. Many people don't know that 12 grams of acetaminophen can kill you (especially if you're an alcoholic). I used the example because it is another substance (like alcohol) that the recipient may not recognize as dangerous.
The situation in the OP is obviously different because the guy is addicted to alcohol, and is probably abusing it with knowledge of the effects thereof, whereas people don't usually become addicted to Tylenol. But the risks of both could be miscalculated by the recipient of such a gift.
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Yukishiro1
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Ok, so if a wife says, "drink this, its arsenic" and her husband does, would that constitute as murder?
Only if she intends to kill him and he is compelled to do it for some reason or drinks it because she knows he doesn't know what arsenic is.
The exact same thing is true with tylenol. In fact giving someone a lethal dose of tylenol with the intent to kill them is probably more likely to be murder because the person is less likely to know the effects.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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cherrim posted:
Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Ok, so if a wife says, "drink this, its arsenic" and her husband does, would that constitute as murder?
I don't think the same could be said about Tylenol. Whether a substance is considered dangerous in any amount should weigh in to some degree imo.
The husband's awareness of what he's taking is important. Many people don't know that 12 grams of acetaminophen can kill you (especially if you're an alcoholic). I used the example because it is another substance (like alcohol) that the recipient may not recognize as dangerous.
The situation in the OP is obviously different because the guy is addicted to alcohol, and is probably abusing it with knowledge of the effects thereof, whereas people don't usually become addicted to Tylenol. But the risks of both could be miscalculated by the recipient of such a gift.
Yeah, I agree he should know whats in it, and I would argue that the legality of the substance plays into that. If he doesn't know its illegal, for instance, he might assume that its safer than it really is. The seller would then assume the responsibility for the harmful impurities which may have caused the liver failure.
Imagine lacing cocaine with rat poison, if it becomes fatal, the police go after those guys for murder. If you sell a bad batch of something, anything really, especially with the intent to kill or harm, you will be charged for the death of that person and anyone else who fell victim to it.
If its illegal, the question I would have then is how was it presented to the victim? Did he say, I picked this up in Georgia its illegal here? Or did he say, here man, I bought you some kick ass alcohol, bottoms up? The difference there could mean the difference between guilt and innocence if I'm on a jury.
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Phlegm573
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Ok, so if a wife says, "drink this, its arsenic" and her husband does, would that constitute as murder?
Only if she intends to kill him and he is compelled to do it for some reason or drinks it because she knows he doesn't know what arsenic is.
The exact same thing is true with tylenol. In fact giving someone a lethal dose of tylenol with the intent to kill them is probably more likely to be murder because the person is less likely to know the effects.
Actually I wonder if Ed gave the brother Tylenol as well, in order to hasten the inevitable conclusion. Ed would have known the dangers of tylenol with an alcoholic.
Also, he absolutely gave him the everclear when the guy was already drunk in addition to when he was sober. The brother-in-law would not have drank himself to death so rapidly on his own (but i guess that might be difficult to prove in court).
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eodoll
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tylenol and alcohol are a dangerous mix ... fast liver death from that.
its a given that if there was a life insurance policy and the person giving alcohol/tylenol benefitted from that policy, then a murder investigation would be under way.
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Yukishiro1
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Phlegm573 posted:
Also, he absolutely gave him the everclear when the guy was already drunk in addition to when he was sober.
That's getting pretty close to murder IMO. Giving an already drunk alcoholic more to drink - with the intent he kill himself through overdrink - is basically compulsion because everyone knwos an already drunk alcoholic can't refuse alcohol.
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NuEM
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I remember the case of one woman basically trolling a girl enough until she committed suicide. I think that's somewhat similar to this question.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Altra was right, I never should have compared him to paulg!
Apology accepted. To be fair, I was merely attacking the problem from another angle. My superior brain works in mysterious ways. And no, I won't go out with you.
Edit: confused my nitpickers 
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Tipztoe
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Tipztoe posted:
If he were providing him with illegal drugs that would be different.
I don't see why. If you sell someone a gun legally and they shoot themselves why is that different than if you sell them a gun illegally and they shoot themselves? In terms of liability for the shooting itself?
If you poison someone with a legal poison or an illegal poison I can assure you it doesn't change whether you've committed murder. The question here is entirely to do with what constitutes killing someone, not to do with the product chosen.
It really has to do with whether the alcoholic had any choice in whether he drunk the stuff.
For example, it is definitely murder if you come across someone already drunk off their ass and then give them a gallon of vodka, knowing full well they arn't in a mental state to be able to refuse it, hoping they will die, and then they do die.
This is a bit different because it happens over a period of time when the guy obviously wasn't drunk all the time. But if Ed was giving him the Everclear *when* the guy was drunk that makes it more likely to be murder.
legal substance + free choice.
edit: regarding the drugs.. look to Michael Jackson's case. His doctor didn't administer the drugs, but provided them. He was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter (because they weren't legally prescribed)
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Yukishiro1
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NuEM posted:
I remember the case of one woman basically trolling a girl enough until she committed suicide. I think that's somewhat similar to this question.
Eh, sort of. I don't think that woman was actually trying to kill the girl. But maybe I'm remembering wrong.
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NuEM
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Maybe not kill her but she intended to harm her I think.
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eodoll
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I think she was egging her on.. Like a bully and like what people might do here. They dont mean it to result in anything real though.
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