Altra_Shadowstalker
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My Guantanamo Nightmare
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/opinion/sunday/my-guantanamo-nightmare.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share
This guy claims he spent 7 years there despite the government not having evidence that he was involved in an embassy bombing plot. When we were forced to try him in court, the gov withdrew the charge rather then present evidence.
I'm not sure how I feel about this. Part of me thinks there's got to be more to this story and is upset that we had to let him out instead of making sensitive, classified evidence public. The rest of me is horrified that America would engage in this behavior and lock up an man in our darkest hole without proof.
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IMHO
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O wonder!
How many goodly creatures are there here! How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world!
That has such people in it!
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He's [Manegarm] like the Fred Phelps of atheism. ~Bubbledude
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Manegarm
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I love how you guys have basically dismantled your justice system the last 10 years 
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ALWAYS ANGRY, ALL THE TIME!
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eodoll
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I've seen 24 - these terrorists get out on a technicality and make a big fuss then they try to do another attack.
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paulg_68
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Much of the evidence against the people held in Gitmo is inadmissible in court. Tons of civil rights were violated when these guys were rounded up and investigated. However, just because evidence is inadmissible doesn't mean it isn't real and true.
Most of the guys who are still there are there because the government has a mountain of proof against them but knows they can't prosecute either because evidence is inadmissible or because necessary witnesses are still undercover.
Anecdotal evidence supports this theory. Guys who get released due to lack of evidence that they are terrorists immediately go back to being terrorists.
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Allstarslacker
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Or become terrorists after witnessing the evils America is doing to innocent people like them.
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bstulic
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My Guantanamo Nightmare
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eodoll
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A lot of them become terrorists because they think America is doing evils to them but in reality it's their own government.
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__Bonk__
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Its no excuse. With the criminal justice system in the US criminals are let go all the time because the cops used illegal means to get the evidence. It should be the same with terrorists held there. This is very bad for America. Now Obama signed a bill which one day will fill FEMA camps with Americans
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bstulic
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I'm not sure I'd forgive someone who jailed me for 7 years for no reason
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__Bonk__
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Even if they are clearly guilty the government needs to let them go if the evidence was obtained illegally. No excuse
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Tych2
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bstulic posted:
I'm not sure I'd forgive someone who jailed me for 7 years for no reason
Just add another hater.. oh well.
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Ptilk
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The US government, and by extension it's citizens, all of us....are the biggest terrorists on the planet.
In your fight against evil, make sure you don't become what you claim to be fighting.
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bstulic
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Ptilk posted:
The US government, and by extension it's citizens, all of us....are the biggest terrorists on the planet.
In your fight against evil, make sure you don't become what you claim to be fighting.
And funny thing, lots of planning was done in Twin Towers and similar places (as americans (OWN) lately found out, too)
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__Bonk__
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Bin Ladin said he would change America via terrorism and he did. We are becoming more totalitarian over time because of this.
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paulg_68
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Allstarslacker posted:
Or become terrorists after witnessing the evils America is doing to innocent people like them.
If that's how it worked then we'd have new terrorists everytime an innocent man got released from prison. But we don't because that's not how it works.
Those guys were terrorists all along.
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Aerlinthian
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Well thankfully this and future despots...err presidents have the NDAA, so they don't have to worry about little details like people being locked up for almost a decade for no justifiable reason.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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__Bonk__ posted:
Even if they are clearly guilty the government needs to let them go if the evidence was obtained illegally. No excuse
Illegally? You mean tortured to gain the information? I agree.
You mean an undercover agent not coming to the trial because he's still undercover and routing out the terrorist scum? You're out of your mind.
You mean a spy investigating a network by breaching our enemies information networks through wiretaps or other means that aren't legal in the US? You're out of your mind.
We're at war. and while I do not support torture, other means to gain information, targets for kill/capture, or the actual killing/capturing itself, I fully support.
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__Bonk__
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Well its not really a war we are in against terrorists.
We fight wars like in Afghanistan or other places to fight terrorists but the overall effort clearly isnt a war.
This type of so called war never has an end. This is scary
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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paulg_68 posted:
Allstarslacker posted:
Or become terrorists after witnessing the evils America is doing to innocent people like them.
If that's how it worked then we'd have new terrorists everytime an innocent man got released from prison. But we don't because that's not how it works.
Those guys were terrorists all along.
Actually, I'm pretty sure statistics say that after going to prison, the likelihood that non-violent offenders will violently offend increases by quite a bit.
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paulg_68
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They don't become terrorists.
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If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc "Everyone has a chance to become rich." - Groucho48 "Most of the human wealth on earth exists between the ears of live human beings." - theredkay1
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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paulg_68 posted:
They don't become terrorists.
You really like semantics and splitting hairs...
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paulg_68
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You think typical "violent offenders" and "terrorists" are so similar that making the distinction is nothing more than splitting hairs?
How many violent offenders have you heard of that caused over $100 billion of damage and killed 3k people?
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Those guys usually sue the government after they get out and win a ton of money. Why would you become a terrorist when you could get a payday?
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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That wasn't my vein of thought at all Paul.
It was more a connection that if nonviolent people to go to a facility largely to contain violent criminals and then become violent. That it's not unreasonable to conclude the possibility that if a nonviolent person goes to a camp largely for terrorists, they would be more likely to become terrorists or more sympathetic to the idea.
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eodoll
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I guess that depends on when they re let out (the becoming violent thing).
Most non violent people will not fall into the violent rage thug crowd in prison.. They will enter the 'keep to yourself' crowd.
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paulg_68
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I was under the impression that the prisoners held in Gitmo don't get to hang out with each other in the yard.
I thought they were all in isolation.
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reesescups
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paulg_68 posted:
Allstarslacker posted:
Or become terrorists after witnessing the evils America is doing to innocent people like them.
If that's how it worked then we'd have new terrorists everytime an innocent man got released from prison. But we don't because that's not how it works.
Those guys were terrorists all along.
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sweeny_comodore
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youre worried about gitmo?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition_by_the_United_States
that makes gitmo look like disney land
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Onslaught.
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Keep a country in a perpetual state of war and fear and you can actually get the people of the country to volunteer to give away their rights without you even having to ask for them.
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the_great_intex
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Sometimes lack of evidence lets a murderer off the hook. He's still free to roam and continue murdering people because there wasn't enough evidence. Sometimes you just need to do things on gut feelings and hoping it turns out good. When we're pretty positive the guy is a murderer or a terrorist then I think it's about time we take the law into our own hands!
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Allstarslacker
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paulg_68 posted:
Allstarslacker posted:
Or become terrorists after witnessing the evils America is doing to innocent people like them.
If that's how it worked then we'd have new terrorists everytime an innocent man got released from prison. But we don't because that's not how it works.
Those guys were terrorists all along.
How do you know they were terrorists to start with?
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paulg_68
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Do you think if you put an innocent person in jail for jaywalking he would become a jaywalker when he got out?
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Allstarslacker
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Do we hold people for years while torturing them for jay walking?
When they go home how hard do you think it is to recruit them to kill Americans?
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sweeny_comodore
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the_great_intex posted:
Sometimes lack of evidence lets a murderer off the hook. He's still free to roam and continue murdering people because there wasn't enough evidence. Sometimes you just need to do things on gut feelings and hoping it turns out good. When we're pretty positive the guy is a murderer or a terrorist then I think it's about time we take the law into our own hands!
so much for the constitution....
who cares if the rule of the land is innocent until proven guilty... the media tells us whos guilty. all we need to do is punish them, right?
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paulg_68
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Allstarslacker posted:
Do we hold people for years while torturing them for jay walking?
No. We do for lots of other crimes though.
And strangely, none of those people become terrorists.
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bstulic
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paulg_68 posted:
Allstarslacker posted:
Do we hold people for years while torturing them for jay walking?
No. We do for lots of other crimes though.
And strangely, none of those people become terrorists.
You're wrong. Some innocent people you held in Guantanamo became terrorists
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NuEM
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This is why you are the bad guys.
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Allstarslacker
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There aren't any good guys anymore.
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NuEM
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Granted, your enemies are even worse.
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reesescups
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NuEM posted:
Granted, your enemies are even worse.
They are worse in concept and theory - but they don't have the money or logistics to really pull it off.
Your previous statement was accurate because we do have the logistics and 'money' (read resources) to pull it off...
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Kjarhall
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paulg_68 posted:
Allstarslacker posted:
Do we hold people for years while torturing them for jay walking?
No. We do for lots of other crimes though.
And strangely, none of those people become terrorists.
And as usual, you have no clue if what you're saying is correct. This is known as Talking Out Yo Ass.
Grats! 
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paulg_68
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And yet my claim remains unrefuted by any contradictory evidence.
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Yukishiro1
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Lots of people learn to be drug dealers while in prison with a bunch of other drug dealers.
Dunno why it would be surprising that people would learn to be terrorists by being imprisoned with a bunch of them. Many of the people wrongly imprisoned probably hated the U.S. to begin with. When you get locked up and tortured for years for something you didn't do but maybe agreed with in the first place I don't think it's a stretch to think you might start to think "well if I'm gonna be locked up and tortured just for being brown maybe there is something to what these terrorists are saying."
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cherrim
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I would probably become a terrorist if I were jailed with no trial for 7 years.
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reesescups
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cherrim posted:
I would probably become a terrorist if I were jailed with no trial for 7 years.
And tortured and told that you were a terrorist...
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Fist_de_Yuma
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In the US someone you know is a murder often cannot be arrested because you cannot prove it. In War that is different. You might not be able to hang them but you can at least hold them into the war is over. Liberals have a hard time understanding that. A Germany solder captured at the start of WWII might well be the nices guy ever born. He will still be held until the end of the war. What is so hard for you guys to understand?
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Taliesihne
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War has not been declared since WWII.
And the 'war' on terror is neverending.
So yea, definitely some issues using the war defense. You are holding someone indefinitely when war has not been declared.
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Allstarslacker
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
In the US someone you know is a murder often cannot be arrested because you cannot prove it. In War that is different. You might not be able to hang them but you can at least hold them into the war is over. Liberals have a hard time understanding that. A Germany solder captured at the start of WWII might well be the nices guy ever born. He will still be held until the end of the war. What is so hard for you guys to understand?
What country are we at war with?
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Kjarhall
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
In the US someone you know is a murder often cannot be arrested because you cannot prove it. In War that is different. You might not be able to hang them but you can at least hold them into the war is over. Liberals have a hard time understanding that. A Germany solder captured at the start of WWII might well be the nices guy ever born. He will still be held until the end of the war. What is so hard for you guys to understand?
Uniformed soldiers =/ suspected terrorists.
Do you know why?
If the terrorists wore uniforms, you'd know who is admitting they are at war with us and i doubt anyone would have the issues regarding this topic. But when you can't tell who is who because they're in civilian clothes, that opens a door for abusing capture rules.
You need to prove they are the enemy. If you can't it's immoral to hold them. In nation wars, the uniform is proof.
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Taliesihne
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Someone's status as a combatant is irrelevant.
According to the rules of our own military, all combatants are to be afforded geneva convention rights - and due process is at the top of that list (know what charges are against you, a chance to defend yourself in court and face your accusers, etc., etc.)
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Fist_de_Yuma
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You have a murder you know is a murder and will murder again if given the chance. Since we are at war we can hold him even if the evidence is tinted. If liberals would get their head out of their ends they would understand this simple idea.
Yes, an undeclared war is a problem but only the really stupid would think we are not at war. It is hard to declare war on a group of people who don't follow any rule of law or war. Liberals would have us shackled to the standards of a declared war when the enemy can do anything they want. It makes for a hard legal battle but it takes very little common sense to see that holding them for as long as possible is the only solution.
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Allstarslacker
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Who are we at war with?
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NuEM
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
You have a murder you know is a murder and will murder again if given the chance.
How do you know that?
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Fist_de_Yuma
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Allstarslacker posted:
Who are we at war with?
Where have you been the last 10 years? I'll take this as a troll comment because no one is that stupid and/or ignorant.
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Allstarslacker
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If it's so obvious you should be able to answer it easily.
Who are we at war with?
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
Yes, an undeclared war is a problem but only the really stupid would think we are not at war. It is hard to declare war on a group of people who don't follow any rule of law or war. Liberals would have us shackled to the standards of a declared war when the enemy can do anything they want. It makes for a hard legal battle but it takes very little common sense to see that holding them for as long as possible is the only solution.
Yes, allowing your government to be at war against an enemy who could effectively be anybody, against a broad idea which will never cease to exist in our world seems like a good idea. Undeclared war at that, with incredibly unclear boundaries.
I would have us shackled to the rules that created our country in the first place, but it seems some of you would rather our congress just threw it on the floor and walked right over it, after pissing all over it that is in the name of safety.
10 years down, here's to another 100, with ever further freedom encroaching regulations and broader definitions of what constitutes a 'terrorist'! 
It'll be fun once that pesky due process and, in particular, habeus corpus, has been completely removed for everyone in order to keep us all safe from the very scary and everywhere terrorism. Loving all this fear mongering and the legislation that goes with it.
/sarcasm 
fkn fisted sheep.
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Yukishiro1
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
You have a murder you know is a murder and will murder again if given the chance. Since we are at war we can hold him even if the evidence is tinted. If liberals would get their head out of their ends they would understand this simple idea.
I agree locking people up forever without ever giving them a chance to defend themselves is a simple idea.
I don't think that makes it a good idea.
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Kjarhall
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
You have a murder you know is a murder and will murder again if given the chance.
Except you don't, so your argument falls apart in the first sentence. Maybe should go look up some of the detainees and the reasons they're being held.
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__Bonk__
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Allstarslacker posted:
Who are we at war with?
Poor brown people
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Orwyn_Blackheart
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
You have a murder you know is a murder and will murder again if given the chance. Since we are at war we can hold him even if the evidence is tinted. If liberals would get their head out of their ends they would understand this simple idea.
Yes, an undeclared war is a problem but only the really stupid would think we are not at war. It is hard to declare war on a group of people who don't follow any rule of law or war. Liberals would have us shackled to the standards of a declared war when the enemy can do anything they want. It makes for a hard legal battle but it takes very little common sense to see that holding them for as long as possible is the only solution.
Dear Yuma
I believe you have pushed your fist, so far up your arse, that it has gone right through that cavity where your brain should exist
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Tych2
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Allstarslacker posted:
If it's so obvious you should be able to answer it easily.
Who are we at war with?
Exactly. Why can't you answer Fist.
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