paulg_68
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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This is because people are far more willing to take risks and make sacrifices when the possible rewards are ginormous compared to when they are just really big.
Libtards think we could jack up taxes to 60%, 75%, or even 90% and that it wouldn't stifle investment or entrepreneurship. They think we could put caps on how much executives and business owners could earn and it wouldn't decrease their willingness to provide leadership and direction. Libtards are in denial of the fact proven by lottery ticket sales.
The possibility of a huge score is a major motivator in the business world.
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Rhint
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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It's getting old and boring Paulg.
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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What was the corporate tax rate in the 1950s?
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Yukishiro1
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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So now Paul wants to base economic policy on the behavior of people who buy lottery tickets.
This is like a caricature of a caricature of a stupid person.
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paulg_68
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=What+was+the+corporate+tax+rate+in+the+1950s%3F
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Allstarslacker
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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Paul is right.
There has to be incentive, and the bigger the incentive the bigger the motivation to chase it.
But, you also have to prevent social decay and unrest. This is what he consistently fails to understand.
There has to be a balance. You have to let that slice of pie be big enough for the most capable to chase it, but you also have to make sure everyone has a slice of pie big enough to make sure they don't try to take someone's else's.
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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Ok, so now that you've seen the corporate tax rate in the 1950s, did their economy look like investment and entrepreneurship was stifled?
Better or worse than now, with tax rates probably the lowest they've ever been?
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paulg_68
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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Yukishiro1 posted:
So now Paul wants to base economic policy on the behavior of people who buy lottery tickets.
This is like a caricature of a caricature of a stupid person.
I think we should base economic policy on the real world we actually live in instead of the fantasy world libtards wish we lived in.
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Yukishiro1
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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I've never, ever met a rich person who wouldn't have bothered to invest their money if they were taxed 40% on it instead of 15%.
High tax rates do have a negative effect on overall economic activity but it isn't because people decide it isn't worth making a bunch of money if they're going to be taxed at X rate instead of X-Y rate.
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Yukishiro1
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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paulg_68 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
So now Paul wants to base economic policy on the behavior of people who buy lottery tickets.
This is like a caricature of a caricature of a stupid person.
I think we should base economic policy on the real world we actually live in instead of the fantasy world libtards wish we lived in.
Let me know how basing your economic policy around people who buy lottery tickets works out for you. Maybe I should give you a hint: people who buy lottery tickets are not smart economic actors. If they were, they wouldn't buy lottery tickets in the first place.
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paulg_68
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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Yukishiro1 posted:
I've never, ever met a rich person who wouldn't have bothered to invest their money if they were taxed 40% on it instead of 15%.
Then you've never met a rich person.
The default use of assets is to not invest. Zero risk, zero return. People make investments when they believe those investments are better than the alternatives, and the alternatives always include the default. Raising taxes does not decrease the risk, but it does decrease the return. That means many investments which would have been superior to the default at a low tax rate are not superior to the default at a high tax rate.
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paulg_68
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Let me know how basing your economic policy around people who buy lottery tickets works out for you.
I'm not.
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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By your argument, investments in our economy should be higher than they've ever been, because our tax rates are historically low.
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cherrim
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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paulg_68 posted:
The default use of assets is to not invest. Zero risk, zero return.
I can see that a lottery player might think this way. Most people with capital do not.
Hint: the risk of not investing is nonzero.
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paulg_68
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:
By your argument, investments in our economy should be higher than they've ever been, because our tax rates are historically low.
Risks are high right now. Expected returns are low.
Tax rates are just one part of the risk/return calculation.
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Scarne
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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Remember when discussing taxes with paulg_68, he didn't know how progressive tax brackets worked until the Outpost taught him about a year or so ago. 
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paulg_68
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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cherrim posted:
paulg_68 posted:
The default use of assets is to not invest. Zero risk, zero return.
I can see that a lottery player might think this way. Most people with capital do not.
Hint: the risk of not investing is nonzero.
It is effectively. Identify what you think is a risk associated with not investing and you will see that it also exists if you invest.
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Yukishiro1
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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paulg_68 posted:
The default use of assets is to not invest. Zero risk, zero return. People make investments when they believe those investments are better than the alternatives, and the alternatives always include the default. Raising taxes does not decrease the risk, but it does decrease the return. That means many investments which would have been superior to the default at a low tax rate are not superior to the default at a high tax rate.
The capital gains rate - by definition - cannot turn a profitable investment into an unprofitable one.
Your problem is you don't have even a basic understanding of what you're talking about. Raising the capital gains rate does have an impact on investment but it isn't the impact you think it does.
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paulg_68
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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Yukishiro1 posted:
paulg_68 posted:
The default use of assets is to not invest. Zero risk, zero return. People make investments when they believe those investments are better than the alternatives, and the alternatives always include the default. Raising taxes does not decrease the risk, but it does decrease the return. That means many investments which would have been superior to the default at a low tax rate are not superior to the default at a high tax rate.
The capital gains rate - by definition - cannot turn a profitable investment into an unprofitable one.
So what?
Complete your thought.
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Ptilk
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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The easiest, quickest, and most assured way of making money isn't creating jobs....it's destroying them. Look at Bain Capital (Romney's old firm).
You buy up businesses that are profitable, but not profitable enough for their shareholders. Take over, rape the company, fire it's workers (who were making profits for the owners), sell off the most attractive parts of the company after "cutting costs" by getting rid of all the people who knew what they were doing and replacing them with much lower paid, much less trained workers, then when the company is losing money like crazy and there is nothing left of value in it....you declare bankruptcy, close the business, and take a huge tax deduction.
Net result, thousands of workers are laid off, a profitable company is gone, and the people who did it made hundreds of millions of dollars then got a tax break.
Welcome to the holy grail of American Business in the 21st century.
PS. The market share of the now closed business is grabbed by some company in Sri Lanka that pays it's employees 1/20th of what their American counterparts made, is owned by the same guys who destroyed the American business, and pays no corporate, or payroll taxes to the US government. Which is one of the reasons our country is in this god damn mess.
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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Sometimes I wonder if you don't argue from certain positions to expose how ridiculous they really are, Paul.
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the_great_intex
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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People who ask for handouts don't develop as someone who has to struggle. Struggle is nature's way of strengthening itself
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Yukishiro1
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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paulg_68 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
paulg_68 posted:
The default use of assets is to not invest. Zero risk, zero return. People make investments when they believe those investments are better than the alternatives, and the alternatives always include the default. Raising taxes does not decrease the risk, but it does decrease the return. That means many investments which would have been superior to the default at a low tax rate are not superior to the default at a high tax rate.
The capital gains rate - by definition - cannot turn a profitable investment into an unprofitable one.
So what?
Complete your thought.
I thought it was pretty obvious. The capital gains tax rate will never make you better off sitting on your money than investing if you would have been better off investing at a 0% tax rate.
It can have some effect on how you invest, but it doesn't mean people won't invest at all.
High capital gains will drive up the cost of capital for risky businesses, which you can view as a net economic cost. It will drive down returns, and therefore slow the growth of capital over time.
It won't impact the overall level of investment as a % of assets.
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paulg_68
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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Yukishiro1 posted:
I thought it was pretty obvious. The capital gains tax rate will never make you better off sitting on your money than investing if you would have been better off investing at a 0% tax rate.
It can have some effect on how you invest, but it doesn't mean people won't invest at all.
Tons of people and companies are sitting on large cash reserves right now. Why aren't they investing? By your logic, no one should ever sit on their money regardless of what the tax rates are. And yet they are sitting.
Explain.
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Scarne
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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paulg_68 posted:
Tons of people and companies are sitting on large cash reserves right now. Why aren't they investing? By your logic, no one should ever sit on their money regardless of what the tax rates are. And yet they are sitting.
Explain.
Supply and demand. There isn't enough demand in the economy to be worth investing which increases the supply. We need some demand-side economics.
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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There might be more demand if the wealth wasn't so concentrated and being held up...
and this despite our tax rates being the lowest they've been, in the last several decades. With no hints of going much higher (certainly not historic levels), if at all higher, so that's not causing anyone uncertainty and thus hesitance. At least imo.
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paulg_68
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:
our tax rates being the lowest they've been, historically.
You should study more history.
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paulg_68
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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Scarne posted:
There isn't enough demand in the economy to be worth investing
Thank you for acknowledging that an investment has to be worthwhile.
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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paulg_68 posted:
Azure-TheBlueOne posted:
our tax rates being the lowest they've been, historically.
You should study more history.
Well, educate me. I tried to help you by pointing out our recent historic tax rates, but you seemed to be not interested. Do you have a specific time period in mind here, because we should certainly look at it in context. Don't you agree?
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paulg_68
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You said they were the lowest historically. You already defined the time range.
History = everything that happened before now
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Yukishiro1
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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paulg_68 posted:
Tons of people and companies are sitting on large cash reserves right now. Why aren't they investing? By your logic, no one should ever sit on their money regardless of what the tax rates are. And yet they are sitting.
Explain.
You're flailing again. I didn't say everyone should invest all the time no matter what. I said the tax rate doesn't effect the decision to invest.
Lots of companies are sitting on cash reserves for a myriad of reasons but the tax rate isn't one of them.
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Yukishiro1
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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paulg_68 posted:
Scarne posted:
There isn't enough demand in the economy to be worth investing
Thank you for acknowledging that an investment has to be worthwhile.
No one disputes that. Investing 10 billion in Paulg's "let's base the tax code off people who buy lottery tickets!" probably is a bad idea. But the reason it's a bad idea isn't the capital gains tax rate.
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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paulg_68 posted:
You said they were the lowest historically. You already defined the time range.
History = everything that happened before now
Ah, so you'd rather argue semantics than discuss then.
I fixed it just for you.
Azure-TheBlueOne posted:
and this despite our tax rates being the lowest they've been, in the last several decades.
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eodoll
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Our monetary system is broken because it seems to funnel to a select few..this causes inflation over time because more has to be printed out.
$1 a 100 years ago is not worth $1 today and thats proof the system is broke. If $1 a 100 years ago was still orth $1 today then it would mean money is distributed properly.
Taxes and strict regulations are a way to fix it.
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reesescups
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Subject:
When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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paulg_68 posted:
This is because people are far more willing to take risks and make sacrifices when the possible rewards are ginormous compared to when they are just really big.
Actually with more people buying tickets, the possibility of sharing your reward is greatly enhanced...
I think your argument is a bit biased and skewed...
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ZigmundZag
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Subject:
When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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Yukishiro1 posted:
I've never, ever met a rich person who wouldn't have bothered to invest their money if they were taxed 40% on it instead of 15%.
High tax rates do have a negative effect on overall economic activity but it isn't because people decide it isn't worth making a bunch of money if they're going to be taxed at X rate instead of X-Y rate.
I'd say the Laffer Curve is a real effect, but it's been taken so far out of context it's mind-boggling. Upper income tax rates used to be something like 90%. Now they're what, 35% before deductions? Most of the talk around tax increases has been around returning them to the Clinton era. I'm pretty sure rich people were still making money and creating investments even in those dark times.
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Groucho48
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Subject:
When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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If only 5 times as many folks buy lotto tickets when the prize increases by 20 times, the takeaway seems to be it would be better to have 20 $5 million lotteries than 1 $100 million lottery. It would also arguably be better to create 20 folks with $5 million each than one person with $100 million.
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GrilledCheez
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Subject:
When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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potential pay off versus investment explains rationally why so many people play at the higher lottery amounts. There is evena certain payoff where it actually becomes a good investment to play the lottery.
I do agree with Paul's basic premise though that more people play due to the big payoff. I don't think that supports his contention about taxes however. Because payoffs are relative regardless of the tax structure. And it's stupid to think people won't invest. making a million and being taxed 800k is still better than making nothing.
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sweeny_comodore
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Subject:
When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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i thought about becoming a billionaire
but then saw the tax rates and decided id rather stay poor than be able to be driven around in a rolls royce.
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Subject:
When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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Lottery is the worst odds for any form of gambling the government is for it totally
Its only a matter of time before the US has a national debt lottery, which will tax the poor and bad at math people to pay for our ever increasing debt
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Crooq_Lionfang
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Subject:
When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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paulg_68 posted:
Tons of people and companies are sitting on large cash reserves right now. Why aren't they investing? By your logic, no one should ever sit on their money regardless of what the tax rates are. And yet they are sitting.
Explain.
Why invest the money you have and be able to deduct it from your taxable income when taxes on said income are historically low that there will never be a better time to sit on it? 
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silvadel2
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Subject:
When the lottery gets up to $100 million 5 times as many people play as when it's $5 million
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Actually -- no -- the reason is how they set up the odds.
I know if the odds are 100 million to one to win the lottery, I am much more likely to buy a lottery ticket when the jackpot is up to 175 million than when it starts off at 5 million. It is just common sense.
The value of the lottery ticket changes with how much money is in the pot.
If it were not for the people who play religiously, it would crank to a halt whenever it reset.
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Thing is I do not NEED 100 million and am much happier joining a pool of 20 people when the lottery goes up to that 1.7 times the odds amount.
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