AgzntOrange2
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15642294
Joann Prinzivalli says she believes a person's sexual identity is determined by their mind rather than their genitals
Continue reading the main story
A group of transgender men and women want New York City to make it easier to change the "M" or "F" on their birth certificates. What makes a man or a woman, and why do governments care?
-----signature-----
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/Lynea/BugsMaroon.jpg Maybe Mormons are secret Muslims (same number of letters and starts with M and ends with S) I think I solved some conspiracy theory...
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AliHajiSheik
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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It's a birth certificate, not a currently certificate.
-----signature-----
*yawn*
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Dark_EternalFF
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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AliHajiSheik posted:
It's a birth certificate, not a currently certificate.
Yeah, I ah...gotta go with this.
-----signature-----
Max Fox (AC), Zygran (WoW, SWTOR) "We poison our air and water to weed out the weak! We set off fission bombs in our only biosphere! We nailed our God to a stick! Don't fk with the human race!" DE/Mr Pants 2012 
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AgzntOrange2
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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"The standard leaves little room for individual interpretation. By simply looking at a baby's genitalia, an individual is able to determine its sex."
-----signature-----
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/Lynea/BugsMaroon.jpg Maybe Mormons are secret Muslims (same number of letters and starts with M and ends with S) I think I solved some conspiracy theory...
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pkhere
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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Dark_EternalFF posted:
AliHajiSheik posted:
It's a birth certificate, not a currently certificate.
Yeah, I ah...gotta go with this.
-----signature-----
"I wish I could lag during sex." - Reapist
Jezza, so you know, you've been moved to the
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with horrible taste on the board. -Wolfgar-
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Velvet_Ice
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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I think the birth certificate should be left alone but amended. Like a car title that is being transferred to someone else. The front stays the same and the back is where all the legal stuff happens. Get a doctors note, fill out a couple forms and be done with it. Its not like these people are going back and forth on what gender they are going to be for the day.
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Love in your heart wasnt meant there to stay Love isnt love until you give it away - 9-11- Always Remember- By the way, Im a girl. 
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HeartView
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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Dark_EternalFF posted:
AliHajiSheik posted:
It's a birth certificate, not a currently certificate.
Yeah, I ah...gotta go with this.
This. It would get too freaking insane to do it any other way. You were a boy/girl at birth and became whatever you are today. You cannot change the past.
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Velvet_Ice
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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HeartView posted:
Dark_EternalFF posted:
AliHajiSheik posted:
It's a birth certificate, not a currently certificate.
Yeah, I ah...gotta go with this.
This. It would get too freaking insane to do it any other way. You were a boy/girl at birth and became whatever you are today. You cannot change the past.
Ok, but what about people who do actually go through with the gender reassignment surgery? They are going to legally have different genitalia but by your reasoning, since they were born one gender that document needs to stay the same.
As of right now, my understanding is if they go through the surgery, they get to change the birth certificate. I could be wrong on this. But you disagree with it being able to be changed?
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Love in your heart wasnt meant there to stay Love isnt love until you give it away - 9-11- Always Remember- By the way, Im a girl.
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Fozzie_Bear
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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all trannys should have to have a big T on their foreheads so you know what you're getting into right from the get-go
-----signature-----
The Oatmeal Butterscotch paired with a Snickerdoodle
turned my cynical penis into a happy vagina
Then after an Oatmeal Cranberry and Double Chocolate,
it made my new vagina spontaneously sing the Trolololo Song in an elevator.
---AkagiyamaMissile
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HeartView
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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Velvet_Ice posted:
Ok, but what about people who do actually go through with the gender reassignment surgery? They are going to legally have different genitalia but by your reasoning, since they were born one gender that document needs to stay the same.
Exactly. That document represents what you were at birth. It's not a passport, it's a birth certificate. The original needs to stay on file and be unchanged unless there is a mistake on there. Modifying your genitalia 30 years later does not mean your birth certificate was incorrect.
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Gaevren
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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Velvet_Ice posted:
I think the birth certificate should be left alone but amended. Like a car title that is being transferred to someone else. The front stays the same and the back is where all the legal stuff happens. Get a doctors note, fill out a couple forms and be done with it. Its not like these people are going back and forth on what gender they are going to be for the day.
Maybe not amended, but...supplemented? So if you're transgender, you have two forms to bring with you to get a license or do other stuff that requires a birth cert. You bring the birth cert and the supplement. Make the supplement a government-issued piece of paper just like the birth cert and social security, and make it a law that it has to be accepted as such, blah blah. Problem solved.
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Velvet_Ice
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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Gaevren posted:
Velvet_Ice posted:
I think the birth certificate should be left alone but amended. Like a car title that is being transferred to someone else. The front stays the same and the back is where all the legal stuff happens. Get a doctors note, fill out a couple forms and be done with it. Its not like these people are going back and forth on what gender they are going to be for the day.
Maybe not amended, but...supplemented? So if you're transgender, you have two forms to bring with you to get a license or do other stuff that requires a birth cert. You bring the birth cert and the supplement. Make the supplement a government-issued piece of paper just like the birth cert and social security, and make it a law that it has to be accepted as such, blah blah. Problem solved.
Thats what I meant! Thank you for clarifying!
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Fozzie_Bear
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I got a legal name change when I was a kid. any time I need to identify myself I have to have that name change form. I dont see what sex change would be different.
-----signature-----
The Oatmeal Butterscotch paired with a Snickerdoodle
turned my cynical penis into a happy vagina
Then after an Oatmeal Cranberry and Double Chocolate,
it made my new vagina spontaneously sing the Trolololo Song in an elevator.
---AkagiyamaMissile
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HeartView
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Gaevren posted:
Velvet_Ice posted:
I think the birth certificate should be left alone but amended. Like a car title that is being transferred to someone else. The front stays the same and the back is where all the legal stuff happens. Get a doctors note, fill out a couple forms and be done with it. Its not like these people are going back and forth on what gender they are going to be for the day.
Maybe not amended, but...supplemented? So if you're transgender, you have two forms to bring with you to get a license or do other stuff that requires a birth cert. You bring the birth cert and the supplement. Make the supplement a government-issued piece of paper just like the birth cert and social security, and make it a law that it has to be accepted as such, blah blah. Problem solved.
I'd be fine with this solution because it makes a lot more sense than modifying the original document.
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Allmightybob_MLF
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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AliHajiSheik posted:
It's a birth certificate, not a currently certificate.
On the other hand... why does the baby's sex even need to be on the certificate.
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HeartView
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Fozzie_Bear posted:
I got a legal name change when I was a kid. any time I need to identify myself I have to have that name change form. I dont see what sex change would be different.
This also. My wife will have to do the same thing because she also changed her middle name when we got married instead of just getting her last name changed. On a side note, I was amazed at how hard the government made for her to do that seemingly simple thing.
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Banelord_FF
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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Does a dude who trades in his  for a vayjay also change that Y chromosome to an X chromosome and does a woman who gets a added change on of those X chromosomes to a Y chromosome?
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The World is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of those who look at it without doing anything.
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HeartView
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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Allmightybob_MLF posted:
AliHajiSheik posted:
It's a birth certificate, not a currently certificate.
On the other hand... why does the baby's sex even need to be on the certificate.
Because it is an identity document. Your sex is part of your identity.
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HeartView
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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Banelord_FF posted:
Does a dude who trades in his for a vayjay also change that Y chromosome to an X chromosome and does a woman who gets a added change on of those X chromosomes to a Y chromosome?
No, not even with hormone therapy.
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Allmightybob_MLF
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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HeartView posted:
Because it is an identity document. Your sex is part of your identity.
So is religion and skin colour! Why not record those too?
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HeartView
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Allmightybob_MLF posted:
HeartView posted:
Because it is an identity document. Your sex is part of your identity.
So is religion and skin colour! Why not record those too?
You are not born religious. And the color of your skin often changes from birth. Some birth certificates include race, though.
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Gaevren
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Fozzie_Bear posted:
I got a legal name change when I was a kid. any time I need to identify myself I have to have that name change form. I dont see what sex change would be different.
Yes that's where I got the idea of the supplement form. I've never had a name change apart from my last name when I got married, but I know if you do change your name you have to have those documents to track the changes.
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Surge_MT
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HeartView posted:
Banelord_FF posted:
Does a dude who trades in his for a vayjay also change that Y chromosome to an X chromosome and does a woman who gets a added change on of those X chromosomes to a Y chromosome?
No, not even with hormone therapy.
Then simply replace Gender with: XX or XY on the birth certificate.
Regarding whether it even needs to be on your current ID, It's not like the bouncer at the bar is going to grab your junk when he checks your license to verify your gender (though the TSA might). Even more obvious clues (hair color, eye color, weight) can be trivially changed with dye, colored contacts, and change in diet. You could argue that having all of that information on your ID serves as little purpose towards identification as your gender.
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Fozzie_Bear
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or!
just to be exciting
how about we dont change a frigin thing and instead of pissing away money on a special interest's pet peeve we spend it on feeding people
I know, what a friggin concept 
-----signature-----
The Oatmeal Butterscotch paired with a Snickerdoodle
turned my cynical penis into a happy vagina
Then after an Oatmeal Cranberry and Double Chocolate,
it made my new vagina spontaneously sing the Trolololo Song in an elevator.
---AkagiyamaMissile
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BritonGuy
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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How about extraterrestrial. We could just call them moon people and be done with all efforts to make them feel like pariahs.
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Briton Guy...persnickety...NEVER!  -Murron (truly) Hawkson is the greatest. -Hawkson Britonguy is usually right. -Onslaught on BT “Do or do not... there is no try.†- Yodazami Do you expect me to remember what I put in my mouth? -NSMachi
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HeartView
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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Surge_MT posted:
Then simply replace Gender with: XX or XY on the birth certificate.
Regarding whether it even needs to be on your current ID, It's not like the bouncer at the bar is going to grab your junk when he checks your license to verify your gender (though the TSA might). Even more obvious clues (hair color, eye color, weight) can be trivially changed with dye, colored contacts, and change in diet. You could argue that having all of that information on your ID serves as little purpose towards identification as your gender.
The original concept of a birth certificate was purely for registration and recognition - "we had this baby". It is relatively recent that the document has turned into a form of identification (mostly because of political immigration and citizenship issues). The problem is that there needs to be enough information on there that two people can't reliably claim the same birth identity, which is why they often include parents' original names and other facts that can't be reliably claimed by someone else.
I don't think there is a better solution than keeping the original and amending it with changes or new identifying documents.
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HeartView
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Fozzie_Bear posted:
or!
just to be exciting
how about we dont change a frigin thing and instead of pissing away money on a special interest's pet peeve we spend it on feeding people
I know, what a friggin concept
Fact is, even if we were overflowing with extra money we wouldn't do that as a whole, but individuals are welcome to.
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Fozzie_Bear
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no excuse for throwing cash away that could be better spent
as the Jesus Christ of the liberal world once said
Obama: "When times are tough, you tighten your belts, You don't go buying a boat when you can barely pay your mortgage. You don't blow a bunch of cash on Vegas when you're trying to save for college."
-----signature-----
The Oatmeal Butterscotch paired with a Snickerdoodle
turned my cynical penis into a happy vagina
Then after an Oatmeal Cranberry and Double Chocolate,
it made my new vagina spontaneously sing the Trolololo Song in an elevator.
---AkagiyamaMissile
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HeartView
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That's exactly why most people follow people they consider visionaries in some regard. Most people are weak, they know they're weak, and so they listen to people that say things they feel are correct even when they can't consistently act upon their "message". It has always been this way. People are sheep looking for a shepherd because they're too afraid or lazy to actually do the right thing without being told to do it first.
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Fozzie_Bear
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its always the same thing really, we should cut spending on this or that but NOT my particular special interest because... well... its my special interest.
-----signature-----
The Oatmeal Butterscotch paired with a Snickerdoodle
turned my cynical penis into a happy vagina
Then after an Oatmeal Cranberry and Double Chocolate,
it made my new vagina spontaneously sing the Trolololo Song in an elevator.
---AkagiyamaMissile
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HeartView
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Exactly, but do you really expect that to change? In all of human history, those with the compassion and willingness to openly aide those around them are a very small minority. Selfishness is survival.
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JoannPrinzivalli
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In 1965, the prevailing medical opinion was that trans people were delusional individuals properly assigned to the original sex, for whom any treatment was merely "palliative." Between 1995 and the present, there have been numerous scientific medical studies that have established that trans people are genetically and developmentally different than persons assigned to the original sex, and genetic predispositions for this sort of development have been found. Over at my blog, I cite to these studies as an attachment to my June 2011 letter to New York State Senate Majority Leader Dean Skelos. See:
http://trans-cendence.blogspot.com/2011/06/my-june-14-2011-letter-to-dean-skelos.html
Birth certificates designate "male" and "female." If one is trans, one does not really belong to the original incorrect designation. The doctor's opinion as to the individual's sex is what is recorded on the certificate, and it should be corrected on establishing that the designation was in error.
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HeartView
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JoannPrinzivalli posted:
In 1965, the prevailing medical opinion was that trans people were delusional individuals properly assigned to the original sex, for whom any treatment was merely "palliative." Between 1995 and the present, there have been numerous scientific medical studies that have established that trans people are genetically and developmentally different than persons assigned to the original sex, and genetic predispositions for this sort of development have been found. Over at my blog, I cite to these studies as an attachment to my June 2011 letter to New York State Senate Majority Leader Dean Skelos. See:
http://trans-cendence.blogspot.com/2011/06/my-june-14-2011-letter-to-dean-skelos.html
Birth certificates designate "male" and "female." If one is trans, one does not really belong to the original incorrect designation. The doctor's opinion as to the individual's sex is what is recorded on the certificate, and it should be corrected on establishing that the designation was in error.
But that is NOT true in all cases, just like not all people that have sex with someone of the same gender are "gay". Some people just like sex, regardless who or what is giving or receiving. Not everyone that changes their sexual organs does it because of some built-in desire to fix their body to match their mind's view of what they should be. There are no 100% rules on any of this.
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Crafty_ac2
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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Dark_EternalFF posted:
AliHajiSheik posted:
It's a birth certificate, not a currently certificate.
Yeah, I ah...gotta go with this.
this.
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Shenron_
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AliHajiSheik posted:
It's a birth certificate, not a currently certificate.
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Allmightybob_MLF
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HeartView posted:
You are not born religious.
Some parents would disagree. If you don't feel our freshly born baby hasn't an opinion yet. Just put down "agnostic".
HeartView posted:
And the color of your skin often changes from birth.
It's a birth certificate, not a currently certificate.
HeartView posted:
Some birth certificates include race, though.
!
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Gaevren
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Allmightybob_MLF posted:
HeartView posted:
You are not born religious.
Some parents would disagree. If you don't feel our freshly born baby hasn't an opinion yet. Just put down "agnostic".
HeartView posted:
And the color of your skin often changes from birth.
It's a birth certificate, not a currently certificate.
HeartView posted:
Some birth certificates include race, though.
!
All of that is beside the point. Whether you declare your gender identity to be opposite of how you were born, or even if you go through the sex surgery thing, the one thing you can never change is the chromosomes. You're either XX or XY, male or female, and they use the very obvious visual signs of that to put down on the birth cert.
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Allmightybob_MLF
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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Gaevren posted:
All of that is beside the point. Whether you declare your gender identity to be opposite of how you were born, or even if you go through the sex surgery thing, the one thing you can never change is the chromosomes. You're either XX or XY, male or female, and they use the very obvious visual signs of that to put down on the birth cert.
Or XXY
Or XXX
Or XO
Or YO
Or XXXX
....
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HeartView
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Allmightybob_MLF posted:
HeartView posted:
You are not born religious.
Some parents would disagree. If you don't feel our freshly born baby hasn't an opinion yet. Just put down "agnostic".
This is one of those topics that are nearly impossible to debate online. Suffice it to say that my stance is that a baby cannot "have religion" at birth as it is not a trait that can be passed from parent to child. Feel free to disagree.
Allmightybob_MLF posted:
HeartView posted:
And the color of your skin often changes from birth.
It's a birth certificate, not a currently certificate.
A point I made earlier as well. It is, however, an easily discernible and factual characteristic of the newborn baby. Maybe a photo of the baby should be included with the certificate?
Allmightybob_MLF posted:
HeartView posted:
Some birth certificates include race, though.
!
I assumed this isn't just about the US. Different countries do it differently, there are even some variations among the states of the US.
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HeartView
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Gaevren posted:
All of that is beside the point. Whether you declare your gender identity to be opposite of how you were born, or even if you go through the sex surgery thing, the one thing you can never change is the chromosomes. You're either XX or XY, male or female, and they use the very obvious visual signs of that to put down on the birth cert.
While I'm on your side (I think) in this debate, that isn't 100% true. There are some genetic abnormalities where people are born with only one X chromosome (I know someone personally with this condition called Turner Syndrome) as well as XXY. There are very likely others as well. My point is that perhaps just simply stating the letter combinations that apply would be better than picking between XX and XY.
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Maybe I'm going about this the wrong way. I'll try this again. What does having sex on a birth certificate add? Nothing. If you have actual, real security concerns... why not use finger printing (some do) or a retinal scan? Since sex only eliminates 50% of the people who could commit the fraud.
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It may be a bit insensitive but when I think of your gender I go by your genetics... Easy way to tell is by the fact you are born with a dick or vagina... If you want to look for a clearer answer go with the X-Y chromosomes, yes?
If you're male genetically thenthat's what you are.
If you identify as a female, then enjoy yourself... But you. Annoy change your genes
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HeartView
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If it eliminates 50% of the fraud then I'd say that's a very significant reason to leave it on there.
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HeartView posted:
If it eliminates 50% of the fraud then I'd say that's a very significant reason to leave it on there.
Okay I get it, you're trolling. We're done here.
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HeartView
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Allmightybob_MLF posted:
HeartView posted:
If it eliminates 50% of the fraud then I'd say that's a very significant reason to leave it on there.
Okay I get it, you're trolling. We're done here.
How the hell is that trolling?
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Chogram
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When do you actually need your birth certificate anyway?
Drivers license and social security card will get you anything that you have ever wanted.
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HeartView
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Chogram posted:
When do you actually need your birth certificate anyway?
Drivers license and social security card will get you anything that you have ever wanted.
To get a SS card you will need a birth certificate. In order to get credit at any underwritten institution you will need a SSN.
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Gaevren
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You're right there are other combinations due to abnormalities, but those are rare and don't a lot of them involve ambiguous genitalia? I don't know, tbh.
As for what it adds to a birth certificate- the whole point is to track genealogy and family lines and keep such records for whatever purpose (tax records, etc). The govt. might not care if you have a male or female baby, but if you neglect to include that information on a birth certificate it can create confusion down the line when you're trying to sort out who begat who. There are plenty of gender neutral names, Leslie for instance, and nowadays more and more names are crossing the line into neutrality. So is this Leslie a mother or a father?
It's also just one more way of helping to visually identify someone, especially when they don't have a photo ID (first time getting a license, or whatever). They have to bring in more than one form of ID, and if someone waltzed in with boobs, high heels and a purse and said "My name is Alexandra", but the birth cert said it should be a male with the name of Alexander, what would you think? Transgender or fraudster? And how are you going to determine the difference? There is no real way to do so.
So I am still in favor of making supplement forms to help alleviate the issue. Rather, I certainly wouldn't oppose it if it came up.
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Gaevren
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HeartView posted:
Chogram posted:
When do you actually need your birth certificate anyway?
Drivers license and social security card will get you anything that you have ever wanted.
To get a SS card you will need a birth certificate. In order to get credit at any underwritten institution you will need a SSN.
You also have to bring more than one form of non-photo ID with you when you get your first license or picture ID. And they almost always require that a birth cert be one of those documents.
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Chogram
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should transgender Birth Certificates show male or female or what?
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HeartView posted:
Chogram posted:
When do you actually need your birth certificate anyway?
Drivers license and social security card will get you anything that you have ever wanted.
To get a SS card you will need a birth certificate. In order to get credit at any underwritten institution you will need a SSN.
My kids both got their SS cards between 3-6 months after they were born(have to have the SS number for insurance)
I though that was pretty nationwide?
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HeartView
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The XXY thing actually happens for 1 in 550 or so births. Just an FYI.
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Fozzie_Bear posted:
I got a legal name change when I was a kid. any time I need to identify myself I have to have that name change form. I dont see what sex change would be different.
This makes sense to me
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Jezza_Belle posted:
Fozzie_Bear posted:
I got a legal name change when I was a kid. any time I need to identify myself I have to have that name change form. I dont see what sex change would be different.
This makes sense to me
Proving A Change In Name, Date Of Birth, Or Gender
If your current legal name is different from the name on your birth certificate or lawful status document, you must show legal proof of the name change (showing a link to all name changes). Acceptable documents supporting a change include:
Marriage license.
Divorce decree.
Court order approving a change of legal name or date of birth.
Amended birth certificate showing a change of gender.
Physician’s signed and dated statement that "(your name) successfully underwent all treatment necessary to permanently change (your name)'s gender from (previous gender) to (new gender)."
That's how Indiana does it.
As to the above, the only time that I have ever needed my BC was to get a drivers license. I had forgotten all about that lol
edit:
What exactly are they trying to prevent?
If I change my name from "MY PARENTS HATE ME" to "Bob" as an adult, I still have to carry the original name around forever.
Why should a gender change be any different.
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HeartView
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Chogram posted:
My kids both got their SS cards between 3-6 months after they were born(have to have the SS number for insurance)
I though that was pretty nationwide?
My memory says for my daughters that all I needed was the birth certificate to get them on the insurance (so they are on it right away). I did get their SS cards soon after, though (about the same 3 month time frame).
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HeartView posted:
Chogram posted:
My kids both got their SS cards between 3-6 months after they were born(have to have the SS number for insurance)
I though that was pretty nationwide?
My memory says for my daughters that all I needed was the birth certificate to get them on the insurance (so they are on it right away). I did get their SS cards soon after, though (about the same 3 month time frame).
everyone should have a SSN by their first birthday, as you need it for taxes.
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Chogram
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HeartView posted:
Chogram posted:
My kids both got their SS cards between 3-6 months after they were born(have to have the SS number for insurance)
I though that was pretty nationwide?
My memory says for my daughters that all I needed was the birth certificate to get them on the insurance (so they are on it right away). I did get their SS cards soon after, though (about the same 3 month time frame).
After looking it up in my employers handbook... what I must have done is given them a copy of the kids's BC's to put them in insurance immediately.
Then I had 6 months to provide them with a SS#, or a legitimate reason why they don't have one yet.
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lol @ you can tell by the dick or vagina idea.
what if it looks like something halfway inbetween a dick and a vagina?
the evidence suggests that most transgender people are more like people who got the wrong body. that is, their brains look like the sex they say they feel, but it's their bodies that differ.
there is a biological spectrum to your biological sex. not everyone that is XY comes out with male physiology. androgen insensitive boys look like girls and the only way you tell is when you find un-descended testes around where you expect a uterus and ovaries.
so spare us your self-evident rules, man. it's not always straightforward so the only thing that matters is what the person feels they are. it's a stupid birth certificate - who cares what goes on it?
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Jezza_Belle posted:
everyone should have a SSN by their first birthday, as you need it for taxes.
You have to have a SSN for the kids if you want to declare them on your taxes, but IIRC you don't legally have to get a SSN for your kids until they're...6 or 7? Something like that.
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Jezza_Belle posted:
Fozzie_Bear posted:
I got a legal name change when I was a kid. any time I need to identify myself I have to have that name change form. I dont see what sex change would be different.
This makes sense to me
Job creation...just need to raise taxes.
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Other than the genetic conditions where you are born with both, or parts of both, I think it should be your genetic gender but you can change it legally the way you would make a name change so that your current one appears on your driver's license and all that. Not so that it changes the original document, just so that your current documents list it and you don't have to tell everyone that you've had an operation.
For genetic conditions where you're born with both or parts of both sexes of genitals, I think they generally make an educated guess at birth, but if that is not how the person's development progresses, they should be able to change the original document if it's important to them. Either that or they should be listed as hermaphroditic on the birth certificate, but I wouldn't want that on my driver's license if it were me.
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