Grymlo posted:

---

The parents of an eighth grader who was fatally shot by police inside his South Texas school are demanding to know why officers took lethal action, but police said the boy was brandishing — and refused to drop — what appeared to be a handgun and that the officers acted correctly.
The weapon turned out to be a pellet gun that closely resembled the real thing, police said late Wednesday, several hours after 15-year-old Jaime Gonzalez was repeatedly shot in a hallway at Cummings Middle School in Brownsville. No one else was injured.
"Why was so much excess force used on a minor?" the boy's father, Jaime Gonzalez Sr., asked The Associated Press outside the family's home Wednesday night. "Three shots. Why not one that would bring him down?"

http://news.yahoo.com/texas-police-kill-8th-grader-carrying-pellet-gun-003818851.html


Great idea here....if the police tell you to put the gun down then put it down or get shot. Sad story and im sure the cops that killed this kid feel like shit but it was justified.

---

GrilledCheez posted:

---

You have no idea if it was justified. I imagine if three punks killed an off duty cop and said the same things you'd be like "it's probably murder."

---

GrilledCheez posted:

---

Let me ask you this. If they had run in and shot him without identifying themselves, or asking him to lower his weapon, or confronting him verbally at all, what do you think they would have put in their reports, and told the press?

---

Yossarian_42 posted:

---

So now you have to create both an elaborate scenario and a conspiracy in order to discredit the police.

---

Grymlo posted:

---

GrilledCheez posted:

---

Let me ask you this. If they had run in and shot him without identifying themselves, or asking him to lower his weapon, or confronting him verbally at all, what do you think they would have put in their reports, and told the press?

---

Teachers locked classroom doors and turned off lights, and some frightened students dove under their desks. They could hear police charge down the hallway and shout for Gonzalez to drop the weapon, followed by several shots.

Interim Police Chief Orlando Rodriguez said the teen was pointing the weapon at officers and "had plenty of opportunities to lower the gun and listen to the officers' orders, and he didn't want to."



IDK man, those 2 statements above seem to go hand in hand with how this played out. Kid refused to drop gun after being told to.

---

GrilledCheez posted:

---

...being sure this is justified based solely on police testimony of the confrontation is retarded. That is also a fact.

---

cherrim posted:

---

a tazer will not keep someone pointing a real gun at you from killing you.

haven't you ever heard that age-old expression, "never bring a tazer to a gun fight"?

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

cherrim posted:

---

a tazer will not keep someone pointing a real gun at you from killing you.

haven't you ever heard that age-old expression, "never bring a tazer to a gun fight"?

---

Except it wasn't a gun fight.
Clearly he wasn't shooting at anyone or they would have known it wasn't a real gun.
So now youre going to give the cops the ability to shoot first and ask questions later?

---

cherrim posted:

---

long jpg links can't be thumbnailed in vn

I would not be able to distinguish this from a real gun.

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

Situations like this are exactly why police have an arsenal of nonlethal weapons.
That kid could have been wielding a slice of pizza. There were no lives in immediate danger. They weren't being shot at. He didn't have hostages.
There was no reason to shoot the kid 3 times.

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

Situations like this are exactly why police have an arsenal of nonlethal weapons.
That kid could have been wielding a slice of pizza. There were no lives in immediate danger. They weren't being shot at. He didn't have hostages.
There was no reason to shoot the kid 3 times.

---

Orwyn_Blackheart posted:

---

looks almost real, kid was dumb

---

GrilledCheez posted:

---

Yossarian_42 posted:

---

So now you have to create both an elaborate scenario and a conspiracy in order to discredit the police.

---

I am not discrediting anyone. I imagine it happened just like the police said. But it is a fact that the police kill people without justification all the time and then get away with it by manipulating the records that they control and the trust that they are almost universally granted in this country. That is a fact. So being sure this is justified based solely on police testimony of the confrontation is retarded. That is also a fact.

---

GrilledCheez, later in the thread posted:

---

I hadn't noticed that teachers reported hearing the officers shouting to drop the gun.

I just get frustrated when police officers are automatically believed. I do think the majority of officer shootings are justified though.

I do think this is unfortunate though. Kids are stupid.

---

Sgian_Dubh posted:

---

Yeah, preemptive violence is always justified when it's a police action.

---

GrilledCheez posted:

---

Let me ask you this. If they had run in and shot him without identifying themselves, or asking him to lower his weapon, or confronting him verbally at all, what do you think they would have put in their reports, and told the press?

---

Yukishiro1 posted:

---

See, that is why Koneg wins Douchebag of the Year practically every year. There is nothing "righteous" about shooting a moron 15 year old with a fake gun.

---

Yukishiro1 posted:

---

I bet if Koneg was there and actually had the balls he pretends to have on the internet he woulda shot the kid then ran up to the corpse and teabagged it before pumping his arm in the air in triumph.

---

Yukishiro1 posted:

---

The shot in the back of the head is pretty weird. I didn't see that before.

I mean maybe he got shot and fell and turned as he fell and then got shot again. But it's still weird.

---

Yukishiro1 posted:

---

*inb4 internet idiot says "wut if he's wearing body armor!!111

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

Police have one job in life and that is to ensure suspects get their day in court.
They are not enforcers. They are not a punishment squad.

Here they preemptively shot a KID for holding a pellet gun.
Who forgot to bring the beanbags and forced them to use their real guns?

Thish is a clear case of modern fear mongering causing cops to over react.
Cops are supposed to be trained to handle a crisis wirh a cool and level head to end it in a peaceful manor.

---

Yukishiro1 posted:

---

The shot in the back of the head is pretty weird. I didn't see that before.

I mean maybe he got shot and fell and turned as he fell and then got shot again. But it's still weird. Cops shouldn't be shooting for the head at all.*


*inb4 internet idiot says "wut if he's wearing body armor!!111

---

Z-Elder posted:

---

Well I can understand that most cops today are very afraid of Middle Schoolers! Especially Brown ones!

Protect and Serve, other cops.

---

Halloweve posted:

---

That is sad. He probably got it for Christmas and was showing it off his first day back from winter break.

I will say tho, we have a Ruger air rifle (pellet gun) with a short barrel and a scope..it looks very real.

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

Exactly.


Everyone seems to be full of what ifs to excuse away the murder of a kid.



What if its only a pellet gun or a slice of pizza?
What happened to erring on the side of caution?

---

Koneg posted:

---

A "righteous" shooting means the shooter acted appropriately and made the correct judgement when he or she pulled the trigger.

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

Police have one job in life and that is to ensure suspects get their day in court.

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

What happened to erring on the side of caution?

---

reesescups posted:

---

WTF is wrong with our society

---

vn_nnanji posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

Police have one job in life and that is to ensure suspects get their day in court.

---

There's also the whole "protect the public" part.

---

Koneg posted:

---

reesescups posted:

---

WTF is wrong with our society

---

What's wrong with our society is we have far too many idiots who think police officers are psychic and obviously just know when a gun that looks absolutely real, isn't.

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

A fifteen year old kid is dead because the cops acted poorly and made bad decisions.

---

reesescups posted:

---

So you believe all Police officers that are patrolling middle schools

---

Koneg posted:

---

reesescups posted:

---

So you believe all Police officers that are patrolling middle schools

---

Do you ever bother to inform yourself about the situation before you flip out?

News flash for the clue impaired (that means you by the way): The police were called to the school because he was roaming around the halls with a gun in his hand.

---

Koneg posted:

---

The unparalleled level of retardation the analogies you two are dreaming up have reached levels never before dreamt of.

Well done.

---

Koneg posted:

---

The unparalleled level of retardation the analogies you two are dreaming up have reached levels never before dreamt of.

Well done.

---

Mangler_X posted:

---

Did anyone catch these 2 bits of info?

"Texas police kill 8th-grader carrying pellet gun"
"15-year-old Jaime Gonzalez was repeatedly shot"

A 15 yo 8th grader??

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

what if they had used a beanbag instead of a .45?

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

bean bag at a gun fight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=805t_qFTgy8






edit:
im going to assume youre just stupid and didnt know what a bean bag is

---

MayorShade posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

bean bag at a gun fight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=805t_qFTgy8






edit:
im going to assume youre just stupid and didnt know what a bean bag is

---

Nope. I've trained with them. I've been shot with one. I've shot somebody with one. I've watched a smaller-than-average sized adult take a beanbag to his beanbag and keep on truckin. That munition was not developed as an alternative to a firearm when facing someone else who is armed with a firearm. To suggest as much is a lie. Don't lie. It's a poor habit to acquire. You are again demonstrating your total ignorance of, well, just about everything. But by all means, continue to entertain and enlighten with your display of woeful stupidity.

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

are you really saying its better to shoot the 15yo retarded kid in the head, with a .45, than try the beanbag because a bean bag might not kill him?

---

MayorShade posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

are you really saying its better to shoot the 15yo retarded kid in the head, with a .45, than try the beanbag because a bean bag might not kill him?

---

Holy shit. You know what, I take back what I said earlier. I can no longer give you the benefit of the doubt. You are indeed as stupid as you let off. Re-read your quote and think about what you said. Make sure you are sitting down while you think. And try not to engage in any other activity while thinking. After sufficient time, you might come to realize your quote actually came close to hitting the nail on the head. Get started, champ!

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

are you really saying its better to shoot the 15yo retarded kid in the head, with a .45, than try the beanbag because a bean bag might not kill him?

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

i read the pellet gun belonged to a friend of his. it was a xmas gift, or something, and the two were looking at it by their lockers (acting like dumbasses).
when the cops showed up, they hollared at the kid. he turned and said its just a pellet gun then got shot to death.

---

article posted:

---

Authorities declined to share what the boy said before he was shot.

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

i read the pellet gun belonged to a friend of his. it was a xmas gift, or something, and the two were looking at it by their lockers (acting like dumbasses).
when the cops showed up, they hollared at the kid. he turned and said its just a pellet gun then got shot to death.

---

Special-Fred posted:

---

If the kid had a real gun and had murdered a dozen of his classmates i get the feeling swirly would still hate the cops for doing their job

---

vn_nnanji posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

Police have one job in life and that is to ensure suspects get their day in court.

---

There's also the whole "protect the public" part.

---

Kamdar posted:

---

EDIT: Found the web page and audio clip...

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/articles/gun-135486-call-gonzalez.html

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

it has to do with having a massive responsibility of protecting children in school. The police officer is guilty and needs to be locked up.

---

Cawlin posted:

---

15 years old in 8th grade is not all that wacky. It means he will graduate high school at age 19, a year older than most, and 2 years older than a very few. Perhaps he was held back a grade, who knows, but that age is not that crazy to think about.

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

I am pretty sure needlessly killing children is high up on the list of things people get mad about.

---

vn_nnanji posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

i read the pellet gun belonged to a friend of his. it was a xmas gift, or something, and the two were looking at it by their lockers (acting like dumbasses).
when the cops showed up, they hollared at the kid. he turned and said its just a pellet gun then got shot to death.

---

ORLY?

Feel free to provide a link to where you read this.

You simply are not rational when it comes to cops dude. It really is that simple.

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

vn_nnanji posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

i read the pellet gun belonged to a friend of his. it was a xmas gift, or something, and the two were looking at it by their lockers (acting like dumbasses).
when the cops showed up, they hollared at the kid. he turned and said its just a pellet gun then got shot to death.

---

ORLY?

Feel free to provide a link to where you read this.

You simply are not rational when it comes to cops dude. It really is that simple.

---

and that was a total troll because nobody had any information about anything other than cops killed a kid for holding a pellet gun in school
apparently it worked because it clearly made a couple of you stop and think about your position on murdering a dumb kid.

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

30 years ago cops would have just tackled the him rather than have to shoot a kid.
now adays everyone wants to be dirty harry and blast everyone they meet in the face. its no big deal anymore for cops to shoot people, its common place and expected.

---

Cawlin posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

vn_nnanji posted:

---

[quote=sweeny_comodore]i read the pellet gun belonged to a friend of his. it was a xmas gift, or something, and the two were looking at it by their lockers (acting like dumbasses).
when the cops showed up, they hollared at the kid. he turned and said its just a pellet gun then got shot to death.

---

ORLY?

Feel free to provide a link to where you read this.

You simply are not rational when it comes to cops dude. It really is that simple.

---

and that was a total troll because nobody had any information about anything other than cops killed a kid for holding a pellet gun in school
apparently it worked because it clearly made a couple of you stop and think about your position on murdering a dumb kid.

---

reesescups posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

30 years ago cops would have just tackled the him rather than have to shoot a kid.
now adays everyone wants to be dirty harry and blast everyone they meet in the face. its no big deal anymore for cops to shoot people, its common place and expected.

---

This is what I was trying to turn the discussion to before Metalface shot his load of stupid all over the place...


Yeah - I can understand what happened, why it happened, etc etc - case closed.

But seriously in retrospect, why do we accept this, why do we tolerate it, why is this not only acceptable in our society but expected? This says something very disturbing about our society...

---

Cawlin posted:

---

reesescups posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

30 years ago cops would have just tackled the him rather than have to shoot a kid.
now adays everyone wants to be dirty harry and blast everyone they meet in the face. its no big deal anymore for cops to shoot people, its common place and expected.

---

This is what I was trying to turn the discussion to before Metalface shot his load of stupid all over the place...


Yeah - I can understand what happened, why it happened, etc etc - case closed.

But seriously in retrospect, why do we accept this, why do we tolerate it, why is this not only acceptable in our society but expected? This says something very disturbing about our society...

---

A metal detector that students pass through would have likely alleviated this situation. That tactic is being employed in a lot of schools nowadays. There's also the zero tolerance policy that has schools expelling kids who bite their pizza into an "L" shape and hold the crust like a gun...

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

Cawlin posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

and that was a total troll because nobody had any information about anything other than cops killed a kid for holding a pellet gun in school
apparently it worked because it clearly made a couple of you stop and think about your position on murdering a dumb kid.

---

That's not true at all. Everyone who read the actual article had corroborating testimony that the police asked the kid to put down the weapon and he did not. Everyone who read the article saw the gun the kid was holding and realized that it was for all intents and purposes indistinguishable from a lethal handgun in that situation. Most of us just read the story and went with the facts that were given.

You are not rational when it comes to cops dude, nnanji is right about that.

---

make up whatever excuses you want to justify your blood lust.
the original article gave no indications of the kids attitude with the gun, how long was waited between telling him to drop it and shooting, what lead up to the incident.
the only thing the original article said was a kid in the hall with a gun that turned out to be a pellet gun.


are you also in agreement that death for this kid was the ONLY answer and a beanbag/tazer should not even have been bothered to be tried first?
should cops just ditch their arsenal of nonlethal weapons or keep them around for use on criples, retards, and old women in place of a slap in the face?

---

reesescups posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

30 years ago cops would have just tackled the him rather than have to shoot a kid.
now adays everyone wants to be dirty harry and blast everyone they meet in the face. its no big deal anymore for cops to shoot people, its common place and expected.

---

This is what I was trying to turn the discussion to before Metalface shot his load of stupid all over the place...


Yeah - I can understand what happened, why it happened, etc etc - case closed.

But seriously in retrospect, why do we accept this, why do we tolerate it, why is this not only acceptable in our society but expected? This says something very disturbing about our society...

---

Cawlin posted:

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

Cawlin posted:

---

[quote=sweeny_comodore]and that was a total troll because nobody had any information about anything other than cops killed a kid for holding a pellet gun in school
apparently it worked because it clearly made a couple of you stop and think about your position on murdering a dumb kid.

---

That's not true at all. Everyone who read the actual article had corroborating testimony that the police asked the kid to put down the weapon and he did not. Everyone who read the article saw the gun the kid was holding and realized that it was for all intents and purposes indistinguishable from a lethal handgun in that situation. Most of us just read the story and went with the facts that were given.

You are not rational when it comes to cops dude, nnanji is right about that.

---

make up whatever excuses you want to justify your blood lust.
the original article gave no indications of the kids attitude with the gun, how long was waited between telling him to drop it and shooting, what lead up to the incident.
the only thing the original article said was a kid in the hall with a gun that turned out to be a pellet gun.


are you also in agreement that death for this kid was the ONLY answer and a beanbag/tazer should not even have been bothered to be tried first?
should cops just ditch their arsenal of nonlethal weapons or keep them around for use on criples, retards, and old women in place of a slap in the face?

---

reesescups posted:

---

Cawlin posted:

---

reesescups posted:

---

This is what I was trying to turn the discussion to before Metalface shot his load of stupid all over the place...


Yeah - I can understand what happened, why it happened, etc etc - case closed.

But seriously in retrospect, why do we accept this, why do we tolerate it, why is this not only acceptable in our society but expected? This says something very disturbing about our society...

---

A metal detector that students pass through would have likely alleviated this situation. That tactic is being employed in a lot of schools nowadays. There's also the zero tolerance policy that has schools expelling kids who bite their pizza into an "L" shape and hold the crust like a gun...

---

Good points - but I was more referring about how our police react...

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

Cawlin posted:

---

If you get pulled over by a cop for a traffic stop and get out of your car holding a gun, the cop isn't going to wait for you to point it at him and then try to talk you down, nor should he.

---

i would expect to be tazed almost before the door is finished opening and my foot is on the ground.
if you think otherwise then you are just a moron and a bad troll.

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

lerdl lerdl lerdl lerdl lerdl

---

Cawlin posted:

---

Well, take into account the fact that this town is a pretty crime laden sihthole in Texas.

---

Cawlin posted:

---

I'm betting gang violence there is not exactly unheard of.

Setting that aside, consider previous incidents involving school violence and criticisms and catch-22 situations law enforcement officers were placed in over them.

Just try, for 5 minutes to put yourself into the shoes of a cop, with a family and likely kids of their own, doing their job - that they've sworn to do - protect and serve the community - and how you might react when some kid holds up a gun and points it at you or your partner. Think about whether you're willing to gamble on seeing your wife and kids or if you're willing to gamble on your partner seeing his wife and kids at the end of the day.

Think about the other kids in the classrooms and your duty to protect them and how you'd feel telling their parents that you didn't want to shoot the 15 year old kid who was threatening everyone with a gun until he'd already shot your partner and a teacher and another 2 kids, killing one and turning the other into a vegetable...

---

sweeny_comodore posted:

---

there is no reason they could not have shot first with the bean bag

---

reesescups posted:

---

Cawlin posted:

---

Well, take into account the fact that this town is a pretty crime laden sihthole in Texas.

---

Ok - my bad - shot first ask question later, or not ask questions... Less Texans is always a good thing

Cawlin posted:

---

I'm betting gang violence there is not exactly unheard of.

Setting that aside, consider previous incidents involving school violence and criticisms and catch-22 situations law enforcement officers were placed in over them.

Just try, for 5 minutes to put yourself into the shoes of a cop, with a family and likely kids of their own, doing their job - that they've sworn to do - protect and serve the community - and how you might react when some kid holds up a gun and points it at you or your partner. Think about whether you're willing to gamble on seeing your wife and kids or if you're willing to gamble on your partner seeing his wife and kids at the end of the day.

Think about the other kids in the classrooms and your duty to protect them and how you'd feel telling their parents that you didn't want to shoot the 15 year old kid who was threatening everyone with a gun until he'd already shot your partner and a teacher and another 2 kids, killing one and turning the other into a vegetable...

---

I put a lot more than 5 minutes into thinking about this. And as far as this situation goes - sure fine, he did what he did and personally - case closed (unless other testimony comes forward).


But you seem to be dwelling on the side of the cop here. and think for a minute about what you are saying. Keep in mind that a cop puts his life on the line every time he puts on the uniform or puts himself in action as a law enforcement agent. That is his job. That being said gambling on seeing your wife at the end of the day is what they did when they signed on to be in law enforcement. Using that as justification for killing someone doesn't cut the mustard. Using that justification a cop can kill anyone, anywhere at anytime...

---

reesescups posted:

---

IMO it is clear that this cop did NOT protect the children - he shot one of them. Yes, for a justifiable reason, but he shot and killed one of the people he is supposed to be protecting. The cop was the rational, professional, adult in this situation and *could have handled the situation differently. Killing someone should always be the last, not first, resort - especially when dealing with a child around other children. It's not like this kid just got done with a shooting rampage and already took out 20 people or something...

---

reesescups posted:

---

But seriously in retrospect, why do we accept this

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

Was the kid in any position to hurt other kids or other adults (besides the cops)? From what I read it sounded like he was already isolated.

The cop's job is first to protect everyone else, after that it is about defusing the situation. Shooting the kid is a very clear indication they failed.

---

Cawlin posted:

---

The cops protected the other children from what you or anyone else would have assumed was a violent criminal in the moment, and rightly so.

---

Koneg posted:

---

Because we're not stupid?

---

reesescups posted:

---

Cawlin posted:

---

The cops protected the other children from what you or anyone else would have assumed was a violent criminal in the moment, and rightly so.

---

This is the crux of it IMO.

Why on earth would you ASSUME a 15 year old was a violent criminal?

Does having a gun automatically make you a violent criminal, really? I got tons of guns, am I a violent criminal?

Does having a Gun on school property make you a criminal or a violent criminal?

Do you understand what the term violent means?

---

Cawlin posted:

---

reesescups posted:

---

Cawlin posted:

---

The cops protected the other children from what you or anyone else would have assumed was a violent criminal in the moment, and rightly so.

---

This is the crux of it IMO.

Why on earth would you ASSUME a 15 year old was a violent criminal?

Does having a gun automatically make you a violent criminal, really? I got tons of guns, am I a violent criminal?

Does having a Gun on school property make you a criminal or a violent criminal?

Do you understand what the term violent means?

---

He was POINTING THE GUN AT THE POLICE, that constitutes a threat of violence and is a criminal act.

---

reesescups posted:

---

Cawlin posted:

---

reesescups posted:

---

This is the crux of it IMO.

Why on earth would you ASSUME a 15 year old was a violent criminal?

Does having a gun automatically make you a violent criminal, really? I got tons of guns, am I a violent criminal?

Does having a Gun on school property make you a criminal or a violent criminal?

Do you understand what the term violent means?

---

He was POINTING THE GUN AT THE POLICE, that constitutes a threat of violence and is a criminal act.

---

Yes in this situation - completely agree - why do we have to keep rehashing this.


I guess you just aren't capable of moving past this - which is I guess understandable and why we accept this in society..

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

It is way more likely the kid will use the gun on himself than on the cops and in the end this story sounds like a suicide by cop or incompetent cops. In either scenario the cops need to do a better job of dealing with the situation.

This story is not about some dark alley, it is about an encounter with an 8th grader isolated in a school hallway.

---

Cawlin posted:

---

What exactly do you think they should have done?

---

Tych2 posted:

---

Cawlin posted:

---

What exactly do you think they should have done?

---

Arrow to the knee.

Yup I said it [face_snap]

---

Cawlin posted:

---

We keep going over it because every time I explain it to you, you rephrase the question and ask it another way. I get that you probably think your trolling is humorous or something, but it just looks like swirly melting down at a slightly slower rate.

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

Last time I checked children dying at school is a pretty good indication that the police office failed to protect the children. The fact that it was the police officer's own stupidity and violence he failed to protect the child from only makes it worse for the police officer.

The man was tasked with an enormous responsibility. The badge, the gun, and the job. He/she failed to live up to any of them. The cop needs to be locked up.

---

Cawlin posted:

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

It is way more likely the kid will use the gun on himself than on the cops and in the end this story sounds like a suicide by cop or incompetent cops. In either scenario the cops need to do a better job of dealing with the situation.

This story is not about some dark alley, it is about an encounter with an 8th grader isolated in a school hallway.

---

What exactly do you think they should have done?

---

Kamdar posted:

---

You are a certifiable moron.

I guess in your eyes every military member should be guilty as well since there have still been terrorist acts against civilians?

He shot ONE kid because the idiot wouldn't listen to instructions to drop a weapon.

If this kid had a real gun and shot and killed classmates, you would blame the cop as well for not protecting the kids.

---

reesescups posted:

---

Cawlin posted:

---

We keep going over it because every time I explain it to you, you rephrase the question and ask it another way. I get that you probably think your trolling is humorous or something, but it just looks like swirly melting down at a slightly slower rate.

---

I removed everything else and only quoted what I called the crux of the context, the situation. You want to assume the kid was a violent criminal.

When pressured about why you would assume SOMEONE, ANYONE, was a violent criminal - you revert back to the context and situation that we have already moved past. We are trying to have a discussion about lessons learned.

You are like Koneg and unable to extrapolate your thoughts and actions into other contexts. Your assumptions were OBVIOUSLY, IN RETROSPECT, 100% WRONG. Doesn't that give you one sec of pause? A 15 Year old is dead because YOUR ASSUMPTION WAS WRONG. And you apparently don't see anything at all wrong with that and would be 100% comfortable making the same wrong assumption in the future...

---

Kamdar posted:

---

If this kid had a real gun and shot and killed classmates, you would blame the cop as well for not protecting the kids.

---

reesescups posted:

---

Cawlin posted:

---

The cops protected the other children from what you or anyone else would have assumed was a violent criminal in the moment, and rightly so.

---

This is the crux of it IMO.

Why on earth would you ASSUME a 15 year old was a violent criminal?

Does having a gun automatically make you a violent criminal, really? I got tons of guns, am I a violent criminal?


Does having a Gun on school property make you a criminal or a violent criminal?



Do you understand what the term violent means?

---

SoBaKi posted:

---

However, in this situation, once the kid pointed the gun at the cops, the potential for REAL violence was established. Had the kid been walking in circles with the gun at his side, you'd have a point. But that isn't what happened.

---

reesescups posted:

---

Cawlin posted:

---

We keep going over it because every time I explain it to you, you rephrase the question and ask it another way. I get that you probably think your trolling is humorous or something, but it just looks like swirly melting down at a slightly slower rate.

---

I removed everything else and only quoted what I called the crux of the context, the situation. You want to assume the kid was a violent criminal.

When pressured about why you would assume SOMEONE, ANYONE, was a violent criminal - you revert back to the context and situation that we have already moved past. We are trying to have a discussion about lessons learned.

You are like Koneg and unable to extrapolate your thoughts and actions into other contexts. Your assumptions were OBVIOUSLY, IN RETROSPECT, 100% WRONG. Doesn't that give you one sec of pause? A 15 Year old is dead because YOUR ASSUMPTION WAS WRONG. And you apparently don't see anything at all wrong with that and would be 100% comfortable making the same wrong assumption in the future...

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

If the cops are not lying then this kid just successfully committed suicide by cop.

So the question is whether or not we train the police to account for this reality or not. Should cops be trained to defuse and disarm or confront and shoot?

---

reesescups posted:

---

But I do have a problem with a society that thinks IN RETROSPECT that this is 100% acceptable and that this is the ideal way for our police force to deal with these types of situations IN THE FUTURE. The assumptions that were made and justified this situation at the time were obviously 100% wrong. The cop couldn't have known that at the time, so no biggie a dumb kid is dead - but knowing that the assumptions were 100% wrong now in the present time, we can (or at least should be able to) discuss and learn from this situation - but apparently not.

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

Of course you Monday morning QB it because everything they do is about training.

Suicide by cop is not a new thing. Suicide of teenagers is not a new thing.

I would hope that cops look at this and rethink their approach.

Defusing and disarming would accomplish their goals better than confront and shoot.

---

reesescups posted:

---

SoBaKi posted:

---

However, in this situation, once the kid pointed the gun at the cops, the potential for REAL violence was established. Had the kid been walking in circles with the gun at his side, you'd have a point. But that isn't what happened.

---

And we have already covered THIS situation multiple times.

I don't have a problem with what went down - as I have said many many many times - case closed.


But I do have a problem with a society that thinks IN RETROSPECT that this is 100% acceptable and that this is the ideal way for our police force to deal with these types of situations IN THE FUTURE. The assumptions that were made and justified this situation at the time were obviously 100% wrong. The cop couldn't have known that at the time, so no biggie a dumb kid is dead - but knowing that the assumptions were 100% wrong now in the present time, we can (or at least should be able to) discuss and learn from this situation - but apparently not.

---

SoBaKi posted:

---

Perhaps we can make police indestructable so they can be shot at without causing any harm?

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

Yes a whole bunch of people will DIE if cops think.

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

Of course you Monday morning QB it because everything they do is about training.

Suicide by cop is not a new thing. Suicide of teenagers is not a new thing.

I would hope that cops look at this and rethink their approach.

Defusing and disarming would accomplish their goals better than confront and shoot.

---

SoBaKi posted:

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

Of course you Monday morning QB it because everything they do is about training.

Suicide by cop is not a new thing. Suicide of teenagers is not a new thing.

I would hope that cops look at this and rethink their approach.

Defusing and disarming would accomplish their goals better than confront and shoot.

---

Unless a cop or an innocent bystander gets killed DURING the defuse and disarm phase of the operation, right?

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

Like I said before they didn't just happen on this kid in a dark alley. The situation is very clearly a kid with a gun in school. He has not shot the gun and he is isolated. The biggest threat before the cops show up is a threat to the kid himself. The cops escalated the situation and made it a no choice scenario.

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

Like I said before they didn't just happen on this kid in a dark alley. The situation is very clearly a kid with a gun in school. He has not shot the gun and he is isolated. The biggest threat before the cops show up is a threat to the kid himself. The cops escalated the situation and made it a no choice scenario.

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

Like I said before they didn't just happen on this kid in a dark alley. The situation is very clearly a kid with a gun in school. He has not shot the gun and he is isolated. The biggest threat before the cops show up is a threat to the kid himself. The cops escalated the situation and made it a no choice scenario.

---

Z-Elder posted:

---

Sin_of_Onin posted:

---

Like I said before they didn't just happen on this kid in a dark alley. The situation is very clearly a kid with a gun in school. He has not shot the gun and he is isolated. The biggest threat before the cops show up is a threat to the kid himself. The cops escalated the situation and made it a no choice scenario.

---

The end.


If you are a pussy do not take the call or the badge. Sadly most do.

---