Yukishiro1
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Not having relegation makes American sports stale
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Look at all the people arguing about who is going to come in last to get the best picks for next season.
It's sorta ironic that losing in American pro sports can actually give you an advantage whereas losing in European sports can result in financial armageddon via relegation. A bit different than the typical characterization of the two societies.
The lack of relegation in American sports leads to bad incentives for losing teams which in turn leads to stale games. One of the best parts of the European soccer league system is that people at the bottom end of the table are absolutely fighting backs to the walls for their lives every game instead of just lamely waiting for the end of the season so they can get preferential picks.
European soccer leagues = capitalism and natural selection in action.
American sports leagues = "everybody wins" communism.
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Elocism
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i would love to see this
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paulg_68
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This thread would probably have more legs if Americans had any idea what "relegation" was.
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Yukishiro1
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Not having relegation makes American sports stale
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I forgot that Americans refuse to look up words they don't understand.
Relegation means the bottom three teams in the league get demoted to the lower league. In return, the top three teams from the lower league get promoted into the top league. It's a little more complicated than that in practice but that's basically how it works.
It means that come the end of the season it isn't only the top teams that care. Some of the best games of the season generally come between two bottom teams desperately slugging it out to try to climb above eachotehr to be able to survive in the league.
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The loser is moving down to another league for lack of success, and the winner of the minor league is moving up to majors. So if you suck in the majors you move down to the minors and loose a bunch of potential income until you get back in the majors
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Again Yuki's internal bias leads him to assume things not in evidence.
We get it. You don't like football. That's normal for a soccer loving pencil necked geek.
Maybe we can fix this though. Allow me to apologize for all those big scary football players that picked on you in school.
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paulg_68
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Yukishiro1 posted:
I forgot that Americans refuse to look up words they don't understand.
Relegation means the bottom three teams in the league get demoted to the lower league. In return, the top three teams from the lower league get promoted into the top league. It's a little more complicated than that in practice but that's basically how it works.
I did look it up. That definition wasn't in my dictionary.
That actually seems like a mostly good rule though from a competition standpoint. However, the NFL is a business. If Chicago, the New York Giants, and Dallas all had bad seasons, it would be financial suicide for the NFL to boot them for a year or three.
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Crooq_Lionfang
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Sounds like another dumb case of too big to fail.
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Yukishiro1
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vn_nnanji posted:
Again Yuki's internal bias leads him to assume things not in evidence.
What does that even mean?
You don't believe relegation has any impact on how hard a bottom of the table team plays? All you have to do is watch one match. Even you would be able to see the difference it makes.
It's just a fact that in American football bad teams are rewarded next year with preferential treatment where in European football they're kicked out of the league entirely. Pretty big contrast.
edit: It also isn't really a soccer vs football thing. Rugby has relegation too. And the American soccer league doesn't have relegation, which is part of why it is considered a joke league by the rest of the world.
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paulg_68
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The NFL is a monopoly. They all stay rich by keeping it that way.
Fans are okay with the affect that has on competition because they know it's as likely to help their teams as hurt them.
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reesescups
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paulg_68 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
I forgot that Americans refuse to look up words they don't understand.
Relegation means the bottom three teams in the league get demoted to the lower league. In return, the top three teams from the lower league get promoted into the top league. It's a little more complicated than that in practice but that's basically how it works.
I did look it up. That definition wasn't in my dictionary.
That actually seems like a mostly good rule though from a competition standpoint. However, the NFL is a business. If Chicago, the New York Giants, and Dallas all had bad seasons, it would be financial suicide for the NFL to boot them for a year or three.
Not for the NFL or the league - but for those teams yes.
Leagues are structured differently here and there isn't as much of a local tie in to 'lower level' teams or leagues.
In England there is what 5 or 6 tiers of leagues - and even those lowest leagues (Basically your average bar league) have a chance to play against the big teams in a cup tourny.
Yuki - I 100% agree about promotion and regulation - I think it would do wonderful things to many American sports and their fan base. It would never happen here though because wel - our sport franchises and systems are too entrenched and would never open themselves up to that level of competition.
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Seething199
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god theory but there is no second league to do this with.
i imagine in europe you just have the same shitty teams switching leagues every year. i doubt a B grade team will move up the ranks in the upper division.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
vn_nnanji posted:
Again Yuki's internal bias leads him to assume things not in evidence.
What does that even mean?
You don't believe relegation has any impact on how hard a bottom of the table team plays? All you have to do is watch one match. Even you would be able to see the difference it makes.
It's just a fact that in American football bad teams are rewarded next year with preferential treatment where in European football they're kicked out of the league entirely. Pretty big contrast.
edit: It also isn't really a soccer vs football thing. Rugby has relegation too. And the American soccer league doesn't have relegation, which is part of why it is considered a joke league by the rest of the world.
I think NFL football works as intended, and that making up leagues to move people around is stupid. The idea that the losing teams get first draft pick works great. So what if a handful of teams suck ass, nothing will fix that. It is what it is.
You don't think teams would lay low to be the top of some other league? What, you want qualifying runs? WTF is this, NASCAR?
I also think you're a soccer loving poof. I don't know or care about American Soccer because it's prolly full of Europeans and European wanna bes, none of whom could play for the worst NFL teams out there.
Unless someone is looking for a kicker.
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Yukishiro1
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The current league leaders of the top English league were in the third division 8 years ago.
And of the three teams that moved up this year, two of them have a good chance of staying up.
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Relegation is a dumb idea, and makes soccer look like the second class sport it is. Maybe it's a decent solution for a league that has the same teams be perpetually bad, but most American pro sports have better parity than that.
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force your 3rd world sports rules on Ethiopians and stop trying to change things you don't understand
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Yukishiro1
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vn_nnanji posted:
You don't think teams would lay low to be the top of some other league?
Dude. Just stop. You're embarassing yourself. If you had any clue what you're talking about you'd realize it.
No team ever intentionally tries to get relegated. The financial consequences are absolutely dire. Being in the premier league is worth about 40 million a year compared to about 5 million a year for the championship. When you get demoted you get 40 million over 4 years to cushion the blow but you're still down 25 million a year.
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Seething199 posted:
god theory but there is no second league to do this with.
i imagine in europe you just have the same shitty teams switching leagues every year. i doubt a B grade team will move up the ranks in the upper division.
Some of the bigger clubs will hardly ever face regulation. You get a solid middle of the table teams and then the lower teams. Once a team gets regulated it's tough because most of the players will have clauses in their contract so they can move to a bigger club, but not all exercise that clause. Anyway - good teams that just have a bad season due to injuries, suspension and such - they usually get promoted back within a year or two. But some clubs can spiral out of control and get regulated a few seasons in a row and wind up in 3rd or 4th tier league. Then again a few teams push through year and year of successful promotions to go from a tier 3 or 4 league all the way up to Premier league, and then they fight like hell to stay there...
The premier league is one of the toughest leagues in the world. Predominantly there is the 'big four' - the big four teams you expect to always see at the top. These spots qualify for other Euro Super Leagues like Europa and Champions league. However, the competition is so fierce in the PL that it's becoming the top six or the big six.
Anyway - could talk for hours about this - there are hundreds of teams, and yes percentage wise most teams are or will be staying in whatever league they are in for most of their history. However, there is a lot of movement up and down through the tiers and it's fun to some times research various clubs and watch as move around the leagues.
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Taliesihne
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Haven't read the thread.
There is much more parity in American Football then there is in European Football. Look at the winners circle in the EPL.
So while I agree it might add some excitement to add promotion\relegation, it doesn't do much for overall competitiveness.
I much rather prefer the excitement over the Top Dawg in the league then who is coming in next to last place.
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Yukishiro1
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Right now in the premier league there's probably 6 teams out of 20 that can realistically fear relegation. There are probably 8 teams in the championship that can realistically aim for promotion.
Right now it is looking like only one of the three teams relegated last year is likely to return to the premier league next year, although a second still has a decent chance of it. Meanwhile, two of the three who got into the premier league this year look reasonably likely to stay in it.
If you view things over a 10+ year period there is not going to be a massive amount of movement from the teams you saw 10 years ago in the top flight to the teams you see now. But it has an enormous effect on how hard bottom teams try, which is what prompted this thread originally.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
The current league leaders of the top English league were in the third division 8 years ago.
Oh, it's a good thing there are time stamps on these posts!!!
Liverpool is going to smash City and I am hoping Newcastle take down ManU - but in both cases your point would still be true depending on the GD.
But anyway - your point is valid. Man City were down a few tiers just a few years ago. They were bought by a rich dude, he dumped money into the club and look at them now...
Now that's taking care of business and getting shit done!
I hope they can keep pestering ManU til Liverpool get up to full speed and go on another decade or two tear.
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The NFL relegation is in their scheduling. In the NFL we can see a team of Posers get a soft schedule at any time they want. That way they can make the playoffs and also get Grossly inflated personal stats for the year, along with the misplaced media attention.
Well except in Sacks, where only real men rank at the top for the year!
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Yukishiro1
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Taliesihne posted:
There is much more parity in American Football then there is in European Football. Look at the winners circle in the EPL.
This is true. Does the NFL have strict financial fair play rules? The reason for the lack of parity in European football has to do with that. They have tried to introduce those rules recently but we haven't yet seen how much teeth they are going to have.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Does the NFL have strict financial fair play rules? The reason for the lack of parity in European football has to do with that. They have tried to introduce those rules recently but we haven't yet seen how much teeth they are going to have.
Yes, they do. The big one is the salary cap.
But they also don't. The NFL actively discourages community run teams - grandfathering in the only two that exist and opposing any attempt to make more. There are a TON of community run teams in English Football.
That said, it took the NFL about a decade to get parity in the league after instituting the fair play rules.
There is talks of the MLS starting promotion and relegation fwiw.
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STFU Yukishito
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Yukishiro1
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I support financial fair play rules as well. But I think that's a different issue from relegation. Relegation improves the standard of play for the bottom half of the table immensely. Financial fair play would do the same to the top half but I dont' think relegation creates the imbalances at the top. Those are pretty much all down to financing.
There is a pretty much one-to-one relationship between financial disparity and the situation at the top of the table in most leagues. The Spanish league is the most lopsided financially and it's also the most lopsided in terms of who has a realistic chance of winning. Meanwhile leagues like the Bundesliga and Serie A (in recent years) are much more open because the finances are more equally distributed.
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I like relegation but I also believe the NFL system has its bonuses too. You see the exact same teams at the top of the soccer leagues year after year after year because the system helps them stay there and crushes the lesser teams.
The NFL helps the weaker teams and makes the league a lot more competitive throughout. Any team has a chance to make a legitimate run from one year to the next and it makes each season a lot more interesting and dynamic. There are always surprise teams for both the good and the bad and I think it is good for the league and the fans that everyone (except the Browns) is a potential contender at the start of the season.
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Yukishiro1
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Yossarian_42 posted:
I like relegation but I also believe the NFL system has its bonuses too. You see the exact same teams at the top of the soccer leagues year after year after year because the system helps them stay there and crushes the lesser teams.
Relegation isn't what does that. It's the lack of any meaningful financial fair play rules. If Man U had an awful year and got demoted next year it wouldn't have a long-term impact on them. But if there were meaningful wage and transfer caps things would be different.
The ideal system would embrace both relegation to keep the bottom half of the table dynamic and financial fair play to keep the top half dynamic.
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Relegation in American sports would be outstanding imo, but it would require a complete reorganization of all professional leagues and a HUGE increase in the numbers of teams.
Major League Baseball is probably the closest sport to being equipped to handle relegation in one respect of the number of teams, BUT, all of those teams are affiliates of the major league clubs. There are triple A, double A, and several single A leagues, but the teams in those are all (or virtually all) owned by their respective major league clubs to my knowledge. For example, the State College Spikes is a so-called "Single A Short Season" (the second lowest pro/semi-pro level) baseball team local to me but they are an affiliate of the Pittsburgh Pirates.
Interestingly, for teams like Pittsburgh, relegation would be very healthy imo. See, the Pirates franchise has been one of the most profitable ones in baseball for the past several years, and they've had close to 20 years of sub-500 play. The ownership of the Pirates has this horribly low payroll, and simply rely on the fact that the Pittsburgh die-hard sports crowd will still come out and watch the Pirates suck ass, thus making their profits huge. The ownership will not keep marquee (expensive) players and is basically bilking their fans with a substandard "product" (and that product is the competitiveness of their baseball team). Meanwhile the fans are too die-hard to stop supporting them - and so they are partially to blame as well.
In order for relegation to work in MLB though a salary cap would be necessary as well and the league itself would have to be restructured to allow "competition" from non-affiliate teams in "lower leagues".
I could imagine a scenario where the stadiums were owned entirely by the cities and the teams were granted the right to play in one of those stadiums if they were not relegated and so on and so forth. However, it gets even more complicated because so much of the market is about TV viewership and with the way the league and teams have various and sundry deals with broadcasters and so forth... it's all very complex and basically set up to be a monopoly.
It's kind of a chicken or the egg issue too... would there be enough fan dollars to support a "relegation" league in MLB that wasn't made up of teams all owned by the clubs in the majors? Maybe there would be if there were enough teams... but more teams might not be able to exist because maybe not enough fans would financially support them and so on and so forth.
I'm not sure there is enough talent available to provide that many teams. Let's face it, in order to be a contending team in the lower leagues, you've got to have a lot of talent, you've got to be able to step onto the field against the big league teams and make a game of it. Even the worst of the worst MLB teams would absolutely CRUSH the hell out of the best teams' triple-A affiliates...
In all, I would love to see the league restructured to provide for salary caps and relegation, but to do so would basically mean tearing the league down and rebuilding it from the ground up. Municipalities, broadcasters, and of course private enterprises would all have to come to terms with that... good luck!
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Dude. Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself. If you had any clue what you're talking about you'd realize it.
Right back at you Soccer girl.
And you misspelled embarrassing.
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Yukishiro1
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I am not going to rub it in your face any more because I know it gets you flustered but that was seriously one of the silliest things I've ever heard. No team would ever deliberately try to get relegated.
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Taliesihne
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vn_nnanji posted:
And you misspelled embarrassing.
True enough.
Can't spell embarrassing without USC. 
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imaloon1
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I think this would work fantastically at the collegiate level.
Boise State would benefit considerably.
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vn_nnanji
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You can rub it in my face all you want. I don't pretend to know shit about Soccer, I see everything through the context of real Football. Although I know what relegation is I have never cared about a sport that really uses it so who cares? Maybe what I said doesn't make sense for soccer. I suspect there are reasons that a team might decide to drop inentionally and that you just don't want to admit it.
Like you don't want to admit you are looking at the NFL through your metrosexual soccer glasses.
Again, what part of soccer doesn't matter don't you get? You want to apply that crap to the NFL and you want to do so because you are biased and don't like football.
Grtz on latching on to one issue so you don't have to address the larger one, which is that the NFL rules make perfect sense for the NFL.
I'm sorry the football players picked on you when you were small. You should prolly get over it already.
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vn_nnanji
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Taliesihne posted:
vn_nnanji posted:
And you misspelled embarrassing.
True enough.
Can't spell embarrassing without USC.
Apparently you can't spell at all.
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smellymotor
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The other point you have to look at is safety. In professional sports that are full contact it's too dangerous to have the lower tier teams play top flight athletes.
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The NFL rules are there to protect a cherished monopoly. Ofcourse it works well for the NFL. The rules exist to work well for the NFL.
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Taliesihne
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smellymotor posted:
The other point you have to look at is safety. In professional sports that are full contact it's too dangerous to have the lower tier teams play top flight athletes.
Soccer is a contact sport.
It's obviously not as violent as Football, but it is a full contact sport.
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smellymotor posted:
The other point you have to look at is safety. In professional sports that are full contact it's too dangerous to have the lower tier teams play top flight athletes.
This is an excellent point too.
Yukishiro1 posted:
The NFL rules are there to protect a cherished monopoly. Ofcourse it works well for the NFL. The rules exist to work well for the NFL.
For reasons including all of what have been posted, and the above by smelly, the NFL is perhaps the worst candidate for relegation of all American pro sports.
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Taliesihne posted:
smellymotor posted:
The other point you have to look at is safety. In professional sports that are full contact it's too dangerous to have the lower tier teams play top flight athletes.
Soccer is a contact sport.
It's obviously not as violent as Football, but it is a full contact sport.
Right, but soccer is somewhat interesting in that as you go UP the ladder of skill and "professionalism", the amount of "contact" goes down.
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Cawlin posted:
Right, but soccer is somewhat interesting in that as you go UP the ladder of skill and "professionalism", the amount of "contact" goes down.
It's the exact opposite actually.
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Yukishiro1
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Of course relegation isn't going to happen any time soon in American sports. Especially not the NFL, which is by far the best at keeping its monopoly strong.
I would think the NBA would actually be the best candidate though, not MLB. There are thousands and thousands of potential pickup basketball teams out there. You don't need expensive facilities to train and play and the team sizes are small.
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vn_nnanji
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Yukishiro1 posted:
The NFL rules are there to protect a cherished monopoly. Ofcourse it works well for the NFL. The rules exist to work well for the NFL.
And it should be changed because some soccer loving fruitcake thinks it's stale?
STFU noob. I watched 3 awesome college games yesterday and expect a very exciting NFL playoff season. The 49rs and the Lions are in the hunt....coming up from the basement. The Colts should have been a contender...and one injury knocks them flat. What does that do to your contorted theory of applying soccer rules to real football?
I can tell you that KC Chief's fans are not thinking that the NFL is stale. They are thinking that a new coach makes a world of difference. I suspect a new coach in Soccer means very little (and don't really care either way)...in the NFL it can mean everything.
In other words you don't know squat. STFU noob.
and....Soccer is a contact sport the same way all male mud wrestling is. 
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I think you guys are upset your sport isn't big here in the US. Don't worry its growing in popularity....
with 6-7 graders.
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Oh I know there is contact in soccer but the difference is you aren't playing the man you are playing the ball.
I think the danger in the contact made in soccer ( head clash etc) wouldn't be much different in a pro v semi pro game. However A pro rugby footballer for example has a huge physical advantage over the semi pro guy to the point where it's dangerous
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Taliesihne posted:
Cawlin posted:
Right, but soccer is somewhat interesting in that as you go UP the ladder of skill and "professionalism", the amount of "contact" goes down.
It's the exact opposite actually.
Really?
I played in high school and it was half a brawl more than half the time. The coaches kept telling us that we weren't going to be able to get by with all physical play if we intended to go on and play at the college level. They made a point to talk about how the game was more about finesse, speed, and talent at the higher levels rather than brute force and physical play...
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Wait so you guys have the same teams fighting each other year in year out?
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Ya, really.
Things are much more physical, but they are much much better at it. They are also better about hiding it.
I think what your coach was driving at was that you wouldn't be able to overpower people physically like you were used to doing. And that has everything to do with the Talent on the field.
But make no mistakes, John Terry is not a cream puff. He can and will put your d#$% in the dirt - it's what he gets paid to do.
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Cawlin posted:
Taliesihne posted:
Cawlin posted:
Right, but soccer is somewhat interesting in that as you go UP the ladder of skill and "professionalism", the amount of "contact" goes down.
It's the exact opposite actually.
Really?
I played in high school and it was half a brawl more than half the time. The coaches kept telling us that we weren't going to be able to get by with all physical play if we intended to go on and play at the college level. They made a point to talk about how the game was more about finesse, speed, and talent at the higher levels rather than brute force and physical play...
Now if we could only find a sport that was about both........................
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Taliesihne posted:
Ya, really.
Things are much more physical, but they are much much better at it. They are also better about hiding it.
I think what your coach was driving at was that you wouldn't be able to overpower people physically like you were used to doing. And that has everything to do with the Talent on the field.
But make no mistakes, John Terry is not a cream puff. He can and will put your d#$% in the dirt - it's what he gets paid to do.
Um, John Terry isn't going to hit anyone any harder than any other 175 lb guy. He may be more willing to do it, but then the way fouls get called in European soccer... yeah... I think you know where I'm going here.
There's no particular inherent "danger" factor from getting hit that will be encountered stepping up from whatever the league is below the Premiere League into the Premiere League like there is by whatever relative comparison there would be to "minor league" NFL teams vs. the pros. The speed and strength of the pro NFL players is frankly super-human. They are bigger, faster, and stronger, and their LEGITIMATE job is to hit other PLAYERS.
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vn_nnanji posted:
Cawlin posted:
Right, but soccer is somewhat interesting in that as you go UP the ladder of skill and "professionalism", the amount of "contact" goes down.
Now if we could only find a sport that was about both........................
That was kind of the point of the comparison that I was making...
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vn_nnanji posted:
They are thinking that a new coach makes a world of difference. I suspect a new coach in Soccer means very little
Why continue to make yourself look dumb speculating about things you don't know anything about and manage to get consistently wrong?
Relegation leads to stale games because the bottom teams have little to play for, particularly in the second half of the season. When you throw in a system that actually rewards you for sucking more than everyone else it creates bad incentives that manifest themselves in the games. These are just facts.
This really isn't about futbol vs football. The MLS is set up along the lines of other U.S. sports and it leads to stale games too.
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Cawlin posted:
Um, John Terry isn't going to hit anyone any harder than any other 175 lb guy.
That's like saying Manny Pacquio doesn't hit harder then any other 115 pound guy.
Cawlin posted:
He may be more willing to do it, but then the way fouls get called in European soccer... yeah... I think you know where I'm going here.
They let quite a bit go in the EPL that would frankly result in instant ejections in lesser leagues.
Cawlin posted:
There's no particular inherent "danger" factor from getting hit that will be encountered stepping up from whatever the league is below the Premiere League into the Premiere League like there is by whatever relative comparison there would be to "minor league" NFL teams vs. the pros. The speed and strength of the pro NFL players is frankly super-human. They are bigger, faster, and stronger, and their LEGITIMATE job is to hit other PLAYERS.
I think your bias towards the sport is doing your intellect an injustice here.
People like Mr. Terry are super-human. And you do risk serious injury putting rank amateurs on a professional pitch with the best players the world.
I'm not even taking sides here on which is worse - I'm simply saying that the axioms that hold true on the NFL also hold true for European Football. Players are bigger, more skilled, tougher and a hell of a lot more talented. Were my local adult team to get put on the pitch with Chelsea, most of us would leave on a stretcher.
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I don't think the NBA would be a good candidate. Does anyone watch the NBA anymore? I stopped watching it when it stopped being a finesse game they started working toward the WWE format we have now.
I would think Hockey would be a better candidate on North America if you incorporated Canada.
Ironically, I've started really getting into hockey for the first time. The only problem is, I can't find much here on TV. 
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Taliesihne posted:
Cawlin posted:
Um, John Terry isn't going to hit anyone any harder than any other 175 lb guy.
That's like saying Manny Pacquio doesn't hit harder then any other 115 pound guy.
Talk about an apples to oranges comparison.
Taliesihne posted:
Cawlin posted:
He may be more willing to do it, but then the way fouls get called in European soccer... yeah... I think you know where I'm going here.
They let quite a bit go in the EPL that would frankly result in instant ejections in lesser leagues.
If you say so... seems dubious though to me.
Taliesihne posted:
Cawlin posted:
There's no particular inherent "danger" factor from getting hit that will be encountered stepping up from whatever the league is below the Premiere League into the Premiere League like there is by whatever relative comparison there would be to "minor league" NFL teams vs. the pros. The speed and strength of the pro NFL players is frankly super-human. They are bigger, faster, and stronger, and their LEGITIMATE job is to hit other PLAYERS.
I think your bias towards the sport is doing your intellect an injustice here.
People like Mr. Terry are super-human. And you do risk serious injury putting rank amateurs on a professional pitch with the best players the world.
I'm not even taking sides here on which is worse - I'm simply saying that the axioms that hold true on the NFL also hold true for European Football. Players are bigger, more skilled, tougher and a hell of a lot more talented. Were my local adult team to get put on the pitch with Chelsea, most of us would leave on a stretcher.
Dude, the Philadelphia Eagles used to have training camp at West Chester University. I grew up about 15 miles from there. You could get to see some of those training camp practices as a member of the public. I have stood within a few yards of of these guys and have watched them move their tremendous bulk at speeds that were frankly grotesque and hit other players with force that was monstrous.
I have watched Penn State's football team practice in person as well. There is no comparison. See, there would be maybe two or three guys or maybe up to a half dozen guys on a D-1 football squad that had any potential in the NFL - meanwhile the ENTIRE NFL roster is made up of guys that are better, bigger, faster, stronger, than those few guys on a college squad. The WORST guy on the NFL team is as good or better than the best guy on the D-1 squad. That's the difference between "pro" and "minor league" football in America. If you put an NFL team up against a D-1 college team, and told them both to play all out... it would be ugly... UGLY.
As for your team against Chelsea, you guys might be leaving on stretchers, but you'd be doing so out of dehydration and cramping. No reason for the Chelsea guys to hit you guys, they'd just run around and past you until you fell over trying to keep up lol (and that is certainly not meant to be a dig against you or your team).
Soccer isn't about hitting people, yes some contact happens, but that's not the nature of the game. Football is about hitting people (and of course so is boxing).
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Taliesihne
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Cawlin posted:
Talk about an apples to oranges comparison.
Not really. Terry is an enforcer.
Cawlin posted:
If you say so... seems dubious though to me.
Not really. Pretty normal actually. Professionals get more latitude when it comes to physicality then us mere mortals. This is true in every sport.
Cawlin posted:
Dude, the Philadelphia Eagles used to have training camp at West Chester University. I grew up about 15 miles from there. You could get to see some of those training camp practices as a member of the public. I have stood within a few yards of of these guys and have watched them move their tremendous bulk at speeds that were frankly grotesque and hit other players with force that was monstrous.
I have watched Penn State's football team practice in person as well. There is no comparison. See, there would be maybe two or three guys or maybe up to a half dozen guys on a D-1 football squad that had any potential in the NFL - meanwhile the ENTIRE NFL roster is made up of guys that are better, bigger, faster, stronger, than those few guys on a college squad. The WORST guy on the NFL team is as good or better than the best guy on the D-1 squad. That's the difference between "pro" and "minor league" football in America. If you put an NFL team up against a D-1 college team, and told them both to play all out... it would be ugly... UGLY.
So your argument is that pro-football players are super-human because you've seen them and soccer player aren't because you haven't?
Terry is superhuman when compared to your average soccer player just like Ray Lewis is superhuman when compared to your average middle linebacker.
Cawlin posted:
As for your team against Chelsea, you guys might be leaving on stretchers, but you'd be doing so out of dehydration and cramping. No reason for the Chelsea guys to hit you guys, they'd just run around and past you until you fell over trying to keep up lol (and that is certainly not meant to be a dig against you or your team).
Soccer isn't about hitting people, yes some contact happens, but that's not the nature of the game. Football is about hitting people (and of course so is boxing).
Big surprise, they are different sports.
Top physical conditioning is a huge part of toughness btw.
Again, I'm not saying that Football players are weaker\Soccer players are stronger, I'm simply pointing out that the axiom we started on holds true for soccer. Pro Soccer players are in incredible shape and incredibly tough when compared to the rest of their sport. Putting an unprepared team on the pitch with them is a recipe for injury.
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Taliesihne posted:
Again, I'm not saying that Football players are weaker\Soccer players are stronger, I'm simply pointing out that the axiom we started on holds true for soccer. Pro Soccer players are in incredible shape and incredibly tough when compared to the rest of their sport. Putting an unprepared team on the pitch with them is a recipe for injury.
Unprepared is one thing.
Making the comparison of your adult rec league team to Chelsea is about an "unprepared" team going against a pro team.
Putting Penn State (a very well prepared team) against the Pittsburgh Steelers (a very well prepared team) would be dangerous to most of the players on Penn State's team. They simply aren't big enough or strong enough to stand up to the punishment that the Steelers entire team could dish out.
Meanwhile, put Penn State's D-1 soccer team (well prepared) against Chelsea (well prepared) and you're looking at nowhere near the same disparity in size/strength/speed nor danger to Penn State's soccer players. You'll see a huge disparity in talent, yes, but not in physical fitness and preparedness.
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Penn State would go home in stretchers as well.
The disparity is just as stark in soccer as it is in football. Not so sure what's so hard to grasp about this.
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Cawlin posted:
Unprepared is one thing.
Making the comparison of your adult rec league team to Chelsea is about an "unprepared" team going against a pro team.
Putting Penn State (a very well prepared team) against the Pittsburgh Steelers (a very well prepared team) would be dangerous to most of the players on Penn State's team. They simply aren't big enough or strong enough to stand up to the punishment that the Steelers entire team could dish out.
Meanwhile, put Penn State's D-1 soccer team (well prepared) against Chelsea (well prepared) and you're looking at nowhere near the same disparity in size/strength/speed nor danger to Penn State's soccer players. You'll see a huge disparity in talent, yes, but not in physical fitness and preparedness.
What about say, LSU or Alabama against say, the Colts?
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Taliesihne posted:
Penn State would go home in stretchers as well.
The disparity is just as stark in soccer as it is in football. Not so sure what's so hard to grasp about this.
LOL stop.
Dude I like soccer, I do. I think sometimes you forget that about me and argue at me as if I'm some sort of NFL die hard, but I'm not. I think you're just trying to find something there that isn't with this whole comparison.
American football is about hitting other players. Not even Rugby or Hockey are as focused on that specific thing as the NFL is.
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Taliesihne
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I wouldn't be discussing this with you if I had forgotten about your semi-fondness for the sport. I would be trolling you.
And yes, the potential for injury is just as high putting the Pen State Soccer Team on the field with Chelsea as putting Oklahoma State on the same field as the Packers.
Add in money and something to play for and either game would be a bloodbath.
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Cawlin
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Taliesihne posted:
I wouldn't be discussing this with you if I had forgotten about your semi-fondness for the sport. I would be trolling you.
And yes, the potential for injury is just as high putting the Pen State Soccer Team on the field with Chelsea as putting Oklahoma State on the same field as the Packers.
Add in money and something to play for and either game would be a bloodbath.
I dunno man, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Taliesihne
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Or Lobby to make it happen.
I would pay money to see Chelsea use Penn State soccer as cleat picks.
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Cawlin
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Taliesihne posted:
Or Lobby to make it happen.
I would pay money to see Chelsea use Penn State soccer as cleat picks.
LOL! Why? Seriously though?
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Here is something very interesting I found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_All-Star_Game
Apparently up until 1976 the Champ (Superbowl or otherwise) played a group of Collge All-stars (presuming they were the all americans) in a pre-season game.
The pro champs had a record of 23-9-2 against the College all stars.
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Taliesihne
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Cawlin posted:
LOL! Why? Seriously though?
If I had to pick a team to watch Chelsea obliterate, it would be Tech, William and Mary or the Gamecocks.
But we were talking about Penn State - adding the collegiate soccer rivalries would have confused things methinks.
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Cawlin
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Szerek posted:
Here is something very interesting I found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_All-Star_Game
Apparently up until 1976 the Champ (Superbowl or otherwise) played a group of Collge All-stars (presuming they were the all americans) in a pre-season game.
The pro champs had a record of 23-9-2 against the College all stars.
Interesting. Remember that pro football was a different game all those decades ago, but also remember that a team of college all stars is probably a team of players who almost all would be making the NFL today, against another team in the NFL. Not as great a difference than say, a college team where 2 or 3 guys might make the NFL vs. a whole NFL team.
Taliesihne posted:
Cawlin posted:
LOL! Why? Seriously though?
If I had to pick a team to watch Chelsea obliterate, it would be Tech, William and Mary or the Gamecocks.
But we were talking about Penn State - adding the collegiate soccer rivalries would have confused things methinks.
Ahhh OK. I didn't think Penn State's soccer program was anywhere near the level of renown to engender any sort of hatred lol... gotcha!
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Yukishiro1 posted:
vn_nnanji posted:
They are thinking that a new coach makes a world of difference. I suspect a new coach in Soccer means very little
Why continue to make yourself look dumb speculating about things you don't know anything about and manage to get consistently wrong?
Relegation leads to stale games because the bottom teams have little to play for, particularly in the second half of the season. When you throw in a system that actually rewards you for sucking more than everyone else it creates bad incentives that manifest themselves in the games. These are just facts.
This really isn't about futbol vs football. The MLS is set up along the lines of other U.S. sports and it leads to stale games too.
Why did you cut out my comment that I didn't really care? What are you, Fox News? 
I counter your inane ranting with three things. The 49rs, the Lions and the KC Chiefs.
Which means I win and you're stupid.
Yukishiro1 posted:
NFL Football should be run like Soccer.
Yukishiro1 posted:
This isn't about Football vs Soccer.
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Relegation in football would be really stupid due to the built in parity and the huge impact of injuries. Not to mention the fact that there is no secondary league.
The draft is also not all its cracked up to be. High draft picks cost a lot and can easily bust. I also don't see pro athletes going to teams that may not have enough money for them next year.
Relegation could work with baseball.
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Fact is most Americans find your "football" boring. I'm sure you find our "football" boring. The reason is we grew up understanding the finer points of the games. A boring 1-0 game might be action packed to you. To us it is just a few guys kicking a ball around. You might find a 17-21 game boring because you just see a bunch of people hitting each other. Sure, there are some boring games in a season of American "football". I'm sure you find some of your "football" games boring. Our system works for us and your system works for you. Trying to judge which is better is for dewebs who don't really have the background or knowledge to judge anything.
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I was reading more on relegation and I found this gem:
http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/a-relegation-fight-theyd-like-to-avoid/
It looks like some of the foreign owners of the EPL want to ditch relegation and take up franchising. I'm sure it has nothing to do with money though.
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Yukishiro1
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It isn't about soccer vs football. American soccer doesn't have relegation and it suffers from the same dull game syndrome. I've said this a couple times but many of you apparently can't keep the soccer vs football out of the equation. Anything soccer does is magically bad because they do it. 
Relegation isn't going to happen soon with any American pro sports because the structural monopoly is too ingrained. But it would make for more less stale games in the bottom half of the table for sure.
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Not for football. It would be stupid in football.
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It would work fine if things were set up for it. This idea that there is anything special about the sport that makes a franchise monopoly required is just silly.
The real problem is the college/pro system. As long as you have a system like that it'd be very hard to migrate to the sort of club system relegation and promotion requires.
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It's kinda interesting how socialized Football is here and how privatized Soccer is in Europe.
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They have tried minor league football and failed. In order for your idea to work you have to show that a minor league would work.
Outside of that you also have to address things like injuries, pay, major markets, and the current parity system.
If you get rid of parity then you don't have to worry so much about kicking out a major franchise but even if that happens a single injury can kill a team.
The idea simply does not work for football for actual reasons that have been given.
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That was kinda the point of the original post. It's ironic that Americans love to attack Europe for being socialist, but when it comes to sports those same people go to the wall to defend the right of their sports organizations to set up a communist paradise where failure is rewarded.
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Are the youth development programs in Europe plagued by scandal?
Don't hear much about that kind of stuff in the states.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
even if that happens a single injury can kill a team.
I don't really understand this. Injuries can hurt in any sport. Do football teams not have decent backups for every position? If your team is so reliant on a single player that seems like a flaw in the team, especially in a game like football where injuries can't be rare.
I think this goes back to the college/pro system. If you had clubs like you did in europe for football you'd have plenty of backup because there'd be plenty of up and coming players. It would be a bit different because you can't very well field a bunch of 17 year olds, but it wouldn't be THAT different.
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Sin_of_Onin
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So the argument is ZOMG SOCIALIZM now?
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Yukishiro1
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Taliesihne posted:
Are the youth development programs in Europe plagued by scandal?
You don't hear much about it in Europe either. That doesn't mean there arn't problems though, obviously.
The whole system being privatized puts a different perspective on things, though, obviously. What would be a scandal because it happens at a college program often wouldn't really be a scandal if it happens in a club youth squad. Pedos are obviously going to be a scandal everywhere but financial stuff isn't as likely to create problems.
I think the biggest "scandals" you usually hear about are top team scouting programs poaching talent from non-top team scouting programs.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
even if that happens a single injury can kill a team.
I don't really understand this. Injuries can hurt in any sport. Do football teams not have decent backups for every position? If your team is so reliant on a single player that seems like a flaw in the team, especially in a game like football where injuries can't be rare.
I think this goes back to the college/pro system. If you had clubs like you did in europe for football you'd have plenty of backup because there'd be plenty of up and coming players. It would be a bit different because you can't very well field a bunch of 17 year olds, but it wouldn't be THAT different.
What you don't get is that injuries are hugely impactful because they happen a lot due to the nature of the sport and there is only a small difference between being a good team and being a bad team. Plus the importance of the QB.
Football is not soccer. You have made an argument that only works in a fantasy world of your own creation. There are so many ifs and buts in your argument it is comical. Almost as comical as your "ZOMG SOCIALIZM" whine.
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Exactly. This is all about Yuki intellectualizing and pretending it's not about his inherent dislike for football in the first place. He shows his ignorance of football repeatedly, several times while pointing to my lack if knowledge about soccer. I, however, am not trying to tell him how Soccer should be run.
I hate to agree with SoO about anything but he's summarized nicely. So does this;
vn_nnanji posted:
Which means I win and you're stupid.
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Taliesihne
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Yukishiro1 posted:
You don't hear much about it in Europe either. That doesn't mean there arn't problems though, obviously.
The whole system being privatized puts a different perspective on things, though, obviously. What would be a scandal because it happens at a college program often wouldn't really be a scandal if it happens in a club youth squad. Pedos are obviously going to be a scandal everywhere but financial stuff isn't as likely to create problems.
I think the biggest "scandals" you usually hear about are top team scouting programs poaching talent from non-top team scouting programs.
I'm more wondering what happens to kids that don't make it as pro-players.
Just thinking out loud - wondering which system produces less corruption and grief for young athletes.
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Sin_of_Onin
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I would be all for reworking college sports but then they wouldn't be as popular.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
What you don't get is that injuries are hugely impactful because they happen a lot due to the nature of the sport and there is only a small difference between being a good team and being a bad team. Plus the importance of the QB.
This all seems like a bunch of nonsense. Injuries being more common should result in less impact overall, not more, because things even out more over the season.
Second, I don't see why the difference between a good team and a bad team should be all that much greater in football that in any other sport. When you have to play second-string players it hurts but if your team goes from being at the top of the table to the bottom of the table because of a single injury you don't have a team, you have one guy plus a bunch of warm bodies.
Now the QB is a bit of a unique situation. But are you really telling me there arn't enough quality QBs in a country of 300 million people to provide decent backups for teams? Your QB going to get hurt is going to impact your team but are you really saying it's the difference between being making it into the playoffs and coming out near dead last?
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Taliesihne posted:
I'm more wondering what happens to kids that don't make it as pro-players.
Just thinking out loud - wondering which system produces less corruption and grief for young athletes.
Well, things obviously start a lot earlier for European club academies. Kids generally join by 12 or so, and by 14 or 16 at the latest players will know if they have a good shot at playing professionally or not. That may give people who don't make the cut more time to figure out what else they're going to do with their lives.
And like you said there's obviously a lot more room to be a pro soccer player in europe than there is to be a pro football player in the U.S.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Injuries being more common should result in less impact overall, not more, because things even out more over the season.
lol wut?
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Injuries being more common should result in less impact overall, not more, because things even out more over the season.
lol wut?
Wut is more proof Yuki doesn't know anything about football.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Injuries being more common should result in less impact overall, not more, because things even out more over the season.
lol wut?
Seems pretty self-evident to me. The more common injuries are, the less likely they are going to be to disrupt the natural outcome of the season because things are more likely to even out over a single season and because teams will be forced to plan for them more thoroughly. If you only have a 5% chance of losing a key player to injury you may take the risk, but if you've got a 50% chance you're going to have backup plans, and the opposition is also more likely to have injuries of their own to deal with.
Unless of course you operate in a league where failure has no real consequences so you have no reason to plan for the worst in the first place.
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you can have a contingency plan in place, but you still wont recover from Payton Manning going down
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Elocism posted:
you can have a contingency plan in place, but you still wont recover from Payton Manning going down
You can't replace Leo Messi or Robin Van Persie either but neither Arsenal nor Barca would be in any danger of relegation even if they both got run over by a bus tomorrow just like Real Madrid's trophy.
Injuries have an impact in any sport. There's no magical reason they're going to matter dramatically more in football, except if they happen to your QB. And even then any decent team ought to have at least 2-3 secondstringers who can do a competent if not spectacular job.
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Yuki really is hilariously clueless.
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Not having relegation makes American sports stale
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I think the NFL teams bring some of this crap on themselves. The Colts are a good example. They have Manning and their back up totally blows. The problem with the NFL is they don't want to pay the kind of money they have to for good back up players. When you can lose one player and it takes you from first to worst, there is something wrong.
Quarterback is one of those of those positions that command a lot of money and it isn't financially advantageous to keep an excellent, and a good quarterback on the same roster. So you get one excellent and two POS QBs.
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Yukishiro1
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Yuki really is hilariously clueless.
You haven't done a very good job of explaining why. I'm happy to admit I don't know much about football. But your reasons don't make any sense. Injuries being more common should lessen the chance of any one injury being decisive, not increase it. You don't need to know anything about football to figure out the reasons you're giving are totally backwards.
If I were to try to make your argument for you I might speculate that football is a long collection of set pieces and set pieces allow for more control over the game and thus perhaps allow for the magnification of minor differences more than in an open game like soccer where you can't micromanage things as easily. But I can't see that account for more than a small difference.
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Yukishiro1
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Szerek posted:
Quarterback is one of those of those positions that command a lot of money and it isn't financially advantageous to keep an excellent, and a good quarterback on the same roster. So you get one excellent and two POS QBs.
Yeah but that's becuase of how the system is set up. Failure in the NFL has no consequences so of course you arn't going to bother to spend a lot of money on a replacement who will sit on the bench 80% of the time just to have him in that crunch situation. If failing has no consequences why would you do that? Better to spend money on first-teamers so that you can win when everything aligns because you have no reason not to gamble that way.
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vn_nnanji
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Failure in the NFL has no consequences.
Other than income at every level? Owners, players, venue......You bleat about how it's all about the money and then spout stupid crap like this. Dude...you are as ignorant of the NFL as I am of Soccer.
The only things I know about Soccer is that it looks like grass hockey and the fans are tougher than the players.
You seem to know even less about the NFL.
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Why are Americans so insecure about their sports?
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Yukishiro1
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vn_nnanji posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Failure in the NFL has no consequences.
Other than income at every level?
You're going to have to be a bit more specific than that. How does coming in the bottom 3 impact a team financially compared to coming mid-table?
From what I can tell the only real impact is you get first choice next season on new signings, which is a clear reward for failure. I'm sure you don't sell as many t-shirts as if you had won the superbowl, but I can't imagine there's much of a difference in shirt revenue between a so-so season and a bottom season.
Is there some other mechanism? Because from what I understand there are financial parity rules that make it so you can't outspend your rivals. Is it just profit to the shareholders?
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Sin_of_Onin
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Yukishiro1 posted:
You haven't done a very good job of explaining why. I'm happy to admit I don't know much about football. But your reasons don't make any sense. Injuries being more common should lessen the chance of any one injury being decisive, not increase it. You don't need to know anything about football to figure out the reasons you're giving are totally backwards.
This statement is 100% illogical. More injuries means more potential impact when considering all of the teams. One team can get hit very hard by the injury bug.
There is also just the nature of the game. The passing game requires a group of people working together to really click. The game takes a high level of precission so an injury can seriously hurt that precission.
The season is not that long. It is not baseball with a ton of games where injuries have a chance of evening out.
On defense there is also a need for leadership. You lose your defensive leader and it can be very hard to recover. The QB is the leader on O but many teams rely on a leader on D. Brian Urlacher on the Bears for example.
Your injury angle is illogical and ignorant. I have explained this to you already but you are deaf to reason. Your mind is made up so you are stuck on stupid.
This is just one issue out of many that make football a horrible choice for the system you talked about. I am all for a minor league for football though. There is definitely a need for one in large part due to the fact that non starters don't get enough game time. If anything a minor league system could be used to help deal with those injury issues. It is hard to know how good your backup QB is when they only face real competition in the preseason or when the starter is hurt.
Bottom line is that I could create a big long post telling you why you are wrong or I can just point and laugh. Either way you are obviously wrong and not changing.
I am even open to the idea for other sports. Soccer, baseball, even basketball has some potential. The major problem is that the system kind of implies a lack of parity built into the system. The strength of the NFL is the parity of their system and they should try and make it even more even IMO.
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vn_nnanji
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Yukishiro1 posted:
You're going to have to be a bit more specific than that.
No I'm not.
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But if there are more injuries, that is true for all teams and all positions. If you know you have a 50% chance of loosing 1, 2 or 3 key players you are going to want to have strong back up players for those positions.
If there are less injuries and you are looking at a 5% chance of needing 1 or 2 back up players for key positions - then you aren't going to spend the money to make sure all key positions have strong back up players. It just isn't finally a good decision because all those strong back up players are going to spend 95% of their time riding pine.
Failing to understand this basic concept aside - I am not sure what it has to do with the relegation argument.
Over all relegation will never work in the US because the overhaul needed to make it succeed is too massive. And smaller local teams wouldn't get much support because they aren't getting massive coverage on TV and that's where most Americans learn what they like and don't like.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
You haven't done a very good job of explaining why. I'm happy to admit I don't know much about football. But your reasons don't make any sense. Injuries being more common should lessen the chance of any one injury being decisive, not increase it. You don't need to know anything about football to figure out the reasons you're giving are totally backwards.
This statement is 100% illogical. More injuries means more potential impact when considering all of the teams. One team can get hit very hard by the injury bug.
There is also just the nature of the game. The passing game requires a group of people working together to really click. The game takes a high level of precission so an injury can seriously hurt that precission.
The season is not that long. It is not baseball with a ton of games where injuries have a chance of evening out.
On defense there is also a need for leadership. You lose your defensive leader and it can be very hard to recover. The QB is the leader on O but many teams rely on a leader on D. Brian Urlacher on the Bears for example.
Your injury angle is illogical and ignorant. I have explained this to you already but you are deaf to reason. Your mind is made up so you are stuck on stupid.
No, you just arn't making any sense. Soccer is more of a passing game than football, and relegation works fine. I have never seen anyone complain that relegation is unfair because of injuries. It is a novel and from the way you have made it not a very convincing argument.
Injuries being more common leads to less likeliehood of any one injury being decisive over the course of a single season. This is just math. For someone who professes some understanding of statistics you sure don't seem to grasp some basic concepts when they are applied to sports. More injuries may result in greater impact across all the teams but relegations depend on standing between teams not the record of all teams. If everyone is likely to lose a key player or two over the course of an average season that is less likely to dramatically impact the record of any one team than if only one key player in the whole league is likely to get injured.
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GrymmDAOC
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Football is a game of specialists. Soccer, not so much. Losing a lineman might not make a difference. Losing a key receiver or QB makes a huge difference.
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Sin_of_Onin
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You are still stuck on stupid.
First off to buttercup. More injuries means that mathematically one team can be hit really hard by injuries while another isn't. When 1 in 5 players get hurt then the chance one team gets demolished by injuries is greater than if 1 in 10 are injured. The relatively small amount of games also concentrates the impact of an injury.
You also mention backups. This is a stupid comment for multiple reasons. The most obvious is the QB position. This alone makes your statement laughable but it is not just that. The NFL has a ton of parity which means that most teams have a weakness in their starting line up. The idea that they can have a very deep bench just doesn't work, especially when combined with the nature of the game. Every team will be looking for backups at all of their positions.
Like I already said a minor league will help with this issue because it will give the teams a way to develop second tier talent outside of having players ride the pine.
Another way to look at your stupid claim about injuries is to reverse the logic. Does less injuries in a support make relegation more or less arbitrary and based on injuries?
Yuki, soccer is a game where everyone passes to one another where the defense tends to sit back and doesn't strongly contest passes until they get closer to the goal. Football is a game of one guy passing to others with everyone trying to stop the completion of the pass. Almost half the offense on every play is dedicated to simply keeping the passer standing.
I see Yuki's problem with the math. You are assuming wrongly that the injuries and the impact of them are evenly distributed. They are not. The more injuries the more likely the impact is not evenly distributed.
The fact is if premier teams in soccer were being relegated then they wouldn't have such a system. Soccer relies on the lack of parity in their system to support relegation. This is another reason why football is not a good candidate but baseball is.
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Yukishiro1
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
The more injuries the more likely the impact is not evenly distributed.
That doesn't make sense. The greater the number of injuries per season the more likely injuries are to even out over the course of a season. If you flip a coin 50 times you're more likely to end closer to 50% heads 50% tails than if you flip a coin 5 times.
And defense in football is if anything probably easier to coordinate than soccer if you have to bring in an alternate player. The thing about soccer is you can't stop the play to sort people out. If someone who doesn't normally play in the team is lost and not keeping their defensive shape you can't just give them a talking to 15 seconds later like you can in football. You are stuck with them for 45 minutes. The scores are also higher so one individual mistake is less likely to determine the game. If one player switches off for 5 seconds in soccer and lets a goal in more likely than not the game is going to turn out differently because of it. In football the generally higher scoring makes any one mistake less likely to be decisive.
A lot of your objections only make sense in the context of the current system where teams have no need to fear bad performances and therefore don't prepare for the worst. If there was the threat of relegation teams would work more on all of the objections you raise and things would work themselves out.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
You are still stuck on stupid.
First off to buttercup. More injuries means that mathematically one team can be hit really hard by injuries while another isn't.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
The more injuries the more likely the impact is not evenly distributed.
That doesn't make sense. The greater the number of injuries per season the more likely injuries are to even out over the course of a season. If you flip a coin 50 times you're more likely to end closer to 50% heads 50% tails than if you flip a coin 5 times.
This conversation would be easier if you were not so clueless about football.
In terms of massively impactful injuries the NFL is more like the 5 times flip. For example the QB position. The odds of a small number of QB injuries in a given year are pretty good but the majority of teams will survive this fate in any given year. These injuries are not a total death sentence for a team but they can be.
When talking about the high number of injuries in the NFL I am really talking about all players. In this example you have a large number of player (21+) per team and the impact of any given player is not that significant compared to the QB. So large number of players with less significant impact.
In this scenario a small number of injuries, say 30 distributed over 32 teams and 640+ players, would not be a big deal because the impact of any given injury is not that big. In order to have a significant impact you would have to have a team with significantly more injuries than the average where the impact of injuries can be magnified.
In the NFL one team could have 7 more injuries than the average. That can sink a season in many cases. Especially for a team that is not that good in the first place. Plus the league is very competitive so the margin of error is not that big.
So once again, in conclusion the impact of the QB and the frequency of injuries in the NFL make it a bad candidate for relegation.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Yukishiro1 posted:
And defense in football is if anything probably easier to coordinate than soccer if you have to bring in an alternate player.
So in defense of the point that in the NFL there are sometimes players that are very important to ensuring coordination of defense you point out that soccer doesn't have that and think that helps your argument.
You don't seem to really get what is being talked about at all. You clearly have a predetermined conclusion and can't defend it with anything but your own stupid.
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reesescups posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
You are still stuck on stupid.
First off to buttercup. More injuries means that mathematically one team can be hit really hard by injuries while another isn't.
If the average is 1 injury per team it is very unlikely that one team has 7 more injuries than another. If the average is seven then the odds of one team having 3 less than 7 and one having 4 more than 7 is not that big.
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Yukishiro1
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
And defense in football is if anything probably easier to coordinate than soccer if you have to bring in an alternate player.
So in defense of the point that in the NFL there are sometimes players that are very important to ensuring coordination of defense you point out that soccer doesn't have that and think that helps your argument.
Hmm. Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong suit today.
Players understanding how to play with one another is if anything more important in soccer than in football because you don't get to stop the clock every 15 seconds to reorganize. And because you can have direct coach input during the game, which isn't really possible in soccer except in very basic ways. And because a single error quite often determines a soccer match while a single error is less likely to determine the outcome of a football match.
Not to rehash stupid stuff but your other point a bit earlier about relegation only existing because strong teams arn't relegated is verifiably false. It's true that strong teams are rarely regulated, but it does happen from time to time. They usually make it back up the next year.
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Sin_of_Onin
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So you countered my point about key defensive leaders by ignoring it and claiming victory... again.
It is a fact that relegation works better in a system with less parity. The more parity there is then the more likely the big market teams will be relegated. This is a fact.
You admitted yourself even in your defense that big market teams are less likely to be relegated and even when they are they bounce back.
Your counters are stupid and demonstrate your ignorance of football. Again.
At first I assumed this was a troll thread but it is clear you are convinced of your own stupid troll and can't let it go.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Not to rehash stupid stuff but your other point a bit earlier about relegation only existing because strong teams arn't relegated is verifiably false. It's true that strong teams are rarely regulated, but it does happen from time to time. They usually make it back up the next year.
Example - Newcastle...
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reesescups posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Not to rehash stupid stuff but your other point a bit earlier about relegation only existing because strong teams arn't relegated is verifiably false. It's true that strong teams are rarely regulated, but it does happen from time to time. They usually make it back up the next year.
Example - Newcastle...
Or River Plate last season.
Juve got kicked into Serie B in 2006 for cheating, which is a bit different I guess, but does also put the lie to the idea that the FAs won't tolerate big clubs being relegated.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
So you countered my point about key defensive leaders by ignoring it and claiming victory... again.
Not ignoring it. It's just a very stupid point. On the pitch leaders matter more in a sport where the coaches have less control and where you can't reset things every 15 seconds, not less.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Not ignoring it. It's just a very stupid point. On the pitch leaders matter more in a sport where the coaches have less control and where you can't reset things every 15 seconds, not less.
Without these defensive captains in football the impact of the coaches is decreased. When Urlacher was out it took away a lot of the team's defensive playbook. Football literally has a role that soccer does not because of the reset. It drastically increases the potential of coaches to impact the game which in turn places more importance on certain players to make sure the defense is doing what the coach wants. Without that key player on D there are examples of defenses falling apart.
One reason Indy was bad this year was because they were without their D captain.
The more you talk about football the clearer it becomes that you don't get it so keep talking.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Not ignoring it. It's just a very stupid point. On the pitch leaders matter more in a sport where the coaches have less control and where you can't reset things every 15 seconds, not less.
Without these defensive captains in football the impact of the coaches is decreased. When Urlacher was out it took away a lot of the team's defensive playbook. Football literally has a role that soccer does not because of the reset. It drastically increases the potential of coaches to impact the game which in turn places more importance on certain players to make sure the defense is doing what the coach wants. Without that key player on D there are examples of defenses falling apart.
One reason Indy was bad this year was because they were without their D captain.
The more you talk about football the clearer it becomes that you don't get it so keep talking.
You know your sport sucks when your best argument is that you need middle managers or the whole team falls apart...
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How extremely boring the US leagues must be if there isn't any room for movement, if everyone just stays the same how can the game evolve?
My team won the Swedish cup some 10 years ago and now it's down 2 leagues from the top because of poor management and bad player deals, idiocy and incompetence should not be rewarded. My team is where it is because of management sucks.. While other teams like Assyriska a team from Södertälje a very immigrant heavy city has risen because of hard work and local talent, this means that the game in Sweden evolves and we get a better larger pool of players to choose from when it's time for the European cup or world cup..
oh wait there is no world cup in handegg or baseball because no one else plays it because it sucks.
NuEM posted:
Why are Americans so insecure about their sports?
Nannjar sounds like he's going to have an aneurysm..
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