Remnant_OBrien
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Seems to be the primary motivator of most conservatives here.
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cabbyman
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Freedom and equality of other people's money!
AMIRITE?!?!?!?!
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Aerlinthian
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You're a totalitarian in denial if you support the unethical majority justified confiscation of private property. A republic is based on rule of law, not on whimsical democratic majority rule. You can't claim to be a "liberal" when you use the power of state for democratic but unconstitutional & unethical purposes.
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NuEM
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The rule of which law?
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smellymotor
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Well there is liberalism and then there is liberalism!
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reesescups
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Aerlinthian posted:
You're a totalitarian in denial if you support the unethical majority justified confiscation of private property. A republic is based on rule of law, not on whimsical democratic majority rule. You can't claim to be a "liberal" when you use the power of state for democratic but unconstitutional & unethical purposes.
But I am sure you go no problem with 'the few' corrupting and manipulating the system to take the private property from the majority...
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GrymmDAOC
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reesescups posted:
Aerlinthian posted:
You're a totalitarian in denial if you support the unethical majority justified confiscation of private property. A republic is based on rule of law, not on whimsical democratic majority rule. You can't claim to be a "liberal" when you use the power of state for democratic but unconstitutional & unethical purposes.
But I am sure you go no problem with 'the few' corrupting and manipulating the system to take the private property from the majority...
We call that 'government'
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Aerlinthian
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reesescups posted:
But I am sure you go no problem with 'the few' corrupting and manipulating the system to take the private property from the majority...
Why would you think that? 
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dae_trist
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GrymmDAOC posted:
We call that 'government'
ONLY THEM GUBMINT CAN DONE STEAL
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Fist_de_Yuma
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NuEM posted:
The rule of which law?
If it feels good do it. If it fails that means you need more of other people's money to make it work.
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paulg_68
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There is nothing liberal about Obrien.
Given the choice between authoritarian socialism and liberalism, he will choose authoritarian socialism every time.
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Remnant_OBrien
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Given the choice between freedom and equality under the law, and an anti-government stance. I choose freedom and equality under the law. That makes me a liberal.
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paulg_68
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You consistently argue against equality under the law.
You redefine "equality under the law" as meaning "getting to spend other people's money" and then argue for that instead.
You are as opposed to equality under the law as anyone on the Outpost.
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Moe_Nox
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Its sad that this weak troll will garner 30ish responses.
The lefts federal edicts are mutually exclusive from liberalism.
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Thugoneous
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Koneg
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
Opposition to liberalism (and all its' varied attempts at expanding freedom and equality)
When has liberalism ever attempted to expand freedom and equality??
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Aerlinthian
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Thugoneous posted:
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theredkay1
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Koneg posted:
Remnant_OBrien posted:
Opposition to liberalism (and all its' varied attempts at expanding freedom and equality)
When has liberalism ever attempted to expand freedom and equality??
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Remnant_OBrien
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Koneg, let no one ever tell you that you restricted yourself to only the little lies.
Moe, Federal edicts are often the best recourse to protect rights from infringement by the states.
Paul, some day, when your children are old and near death, they will tell stories of you to their grandchildren, of the man who knew nothing.
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paulg_68
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
Moe, Federal edicts are often the best recourse to protect rights from infringement by the states.
Like when California legalized medical marijuana and Obama sent the feds in to ensure the suffering of little old ladies with glaucoma in order to protect the interests of his campaign donors at Pfizer?
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Cawlin
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The current manifestation of "liberalism" focuses on providing "equality" by reducing everyone's freedoms to the lowest common denominator.
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Szerek
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
Moe, Federal edicts are often the best recourse to protect rights from infringement by the states.
You mean like when they crack down on medical marijuana users or how they allow states with civil union laws to file IRS joint returns?
We need infringement protection both ways.
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Remnant_OBrien
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paulg_68 posted:
Remnant_OBrien posted:
Moe, Federal edicts are often the best recourse to protect rights from infringement by the states.
Like when California legalized medical marijuana and Obama sent the feds in to ensure the suffering of little old ladies with glaucoma in order to protect the interests of his campaign donors at Pfizer?
Yes actions similar in nature have been used in the past to protect the rights of citizens. That particular action, probably not. On the other hand I sincerely doubt that you believe drug use is a right.
Szerek, we all expect that granting equal rights to gays is going to become federal law at some point. And that's the end goal, federal protection of rights. Just because it the edict doesn't exist yet, doesn't mean its still not the optimal result. And once it exists you know there will be folks who resent it.
Your last sentence is really telling, we need infringement protection both ways. Your primary concern is with protecting rights.
Paul is more interested in partisan sniping and anti-government hogwash.
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Remnant_OBrien
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Cawlin, I have a question for you.
Do you believe that some people should have more freedoms than others?
I generally think accessibility of freedoms should be equal, and with that goal in mind i fail to see how to avoid pursuing a common denominator.
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Tych2
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Are you trying to convince conservatives to become liberals?
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GrilledCheez
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Poor Obrien.
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paulg_68
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
Cawlin, I have a question for you.
Do you believe that some people should have more freedoms than others?
I generally think accessibility of freedoms should be equal, and with that goal in mind i fail to see how to avoid pursuing a common denominator.
When Obrien says "freedoms" he means other people's money.
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Cawlin
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
Cawlin, I have a question for you.
Do you believe that some people should have more freedoms than others?
I generally think accessibility of freedoms should be equal, and with that goal in mind i fail to see how to avoid pursuing a common denominator.
I think that convicted criminals should not have the same freedoms that others do.
Aside from that, if I am free to ride my mountain bike, but you are not because you cannot afford a mountain bike, it doesn't make us more free if you outlaw bikes. It might make us equal in that regard, but freedom is not increased. Now, it would be a good idea to remove barriers that make it hard for you to have a bike, as long as you were willing to work towards it honestly, but that's not always the way modern-day "liberalism" works.
Modern day liberalism is about outlawing bikes.
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paulg_68
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Well said Cawlin!
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Remnant_OBrien
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Tych2 posted:
Are you trying to convince conservatives to become liberals?
No not really. I'm pretty sure everyone here is pretty set on what they believe.
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Remnant_OBrien
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paulg_68 posted:
Remnant_OBrien posted:
Cawlin, I have a question for you.
Do you believe that some people should have more freedoms than others?
I generally think accessibility of freedoms should be equal, and with that goal in mind i fail to see how to avoid pursuing a common denominator.
When Obrien says "freedoms" he means other people's money.
Someday you'll move beyond your premise that money = freedom. It's pretty distorted.
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Moe_Nox
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
Someday you'll move beyond your premise that money = freedom. It's pretty distorted.
Actually that screams of projection.
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Remnant_OBrien
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Cawlin posted:
Modern day liberalism is about outlawing bikes.
You can tell because there are so many bike bans, and car bans and yacht bans, and airplane bans.
Stuff isn't freedom.
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Aerlinthian
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
Someday you'll move beyond your premise that money = freedom. It's pretty distorted.
Do you use the locks that are on your doors/vehicles, etc?
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Tych2
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
Tych2 posted:
Are you trying to convince conservatives to become liberals?
No not really. I'm pretty sure everyone here is pretty set on what they believe.
You'd be surprised. People change. I've run the gambit in my life and I expect I shall change outlooks a few more times. I've changed my mind on a few topics since being here. Some from natural evolution, some from good arguments. I think you have better luck trying on issues rather than a wholesale change.
I asked because I was curious.
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Remnant_OBrien
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Moe_Nox posted:
Remnant_OBrien posted:
Someday you'll move beyond your premise that money = freedom. It's pretty distorted.
Actually that screams of projection.
It's not me who first example of a freedom involves the right to purchase and consume. That's Paul and Cawlin. My first example of a freedom would be equal access to the ballot box. The next would be gay rights.
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Remnant_OBrien
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Tych2 posted:
Remnant_OBrien posted:
Tych2 posted:
Are you trying to convince conservatives to become liberals?
No not really. I'm pretty sure everyone here is pretty set on what they believe.
You'd be surprised. People change. I've run the gambit in my life and I expect I shall change outlooks a few more times. I've changed my mind on a few topics since being here. Some from natural evolution, some from good arguments. I think you have better luck trying on issues rather than a wholesale change.
I asked because I was curious.
Well this thread certainly isn't aimed at convincing anyone. I probably still try in other threads from time to time.
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Cawlin
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
Moe_Nox posted:
Remnant_OBrien posted:
Someday you'll move beyond your premise that money = freedom. It's pretty distorted.
Actually that screams of projection.
It's not me who first example of a freedom involves the right to purchase and consume. That's Paul and Cawlin. My first example of a freedom would be equal access to the ballot box. The next would be gay rights.
Who doesn't have access to a ballot box that is an American citizen over the age of 18 and not a convicted felon?
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Plenty of people. You should probably try googling it.
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Cawlin
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
Plenty of people. You should probably try googling it.
I'm asking you to prove your statement. Is that all you have?
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theredkay1
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Cawlin posted:
Remnant_OBrien posted:
My first example of a freedom would be equal access to the ballot box.
Who doesn't have access to a ballot box that is an American citizen over the age of 18 and not a convicted felon?
I think you missed a key part.
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Remnant_OBrien
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My statement doesn't need proof...
My statement was "My first example of a freedom would be equal access to the ballot box." That's not even claiming that people don't have equal access. My latter statement did that. English you idjit. But seriously, if you're too lazy to go check the state of voting rights in the country you don't care that much about freedom.
I'm out for 6 hours.. i might return to this to this thread.
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Cawlin
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theredkay1 posted:
Cawlin posted:
Remnant_OBrien posted:
My first example of a freedom would be equal access to the ballot box.
Who doesn't have access to a ballot box that is an American citizen over the age of 18 and not a convicted felon?
I think you missed a key part.
I'm waiting to hear who doesn't have equal access to vote in America who is a citizen of 18 years or older and not a felon. So by all means, please tell me.
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Cawlin
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
My statement doesn't need proof...
My statement was "My first example of a freedom would be equal access to the ballot box." That's not even claiming that people don't have equal access. My latter statement did that. English you idjit. But seriously, if you're too lazy to go check the state of voting rights in the country you don't care that much about freedom.
So your statement was to provide something that everyone already has and that's an example of what modern liberalism gives us?
If only modern liberalism would actually limit itself thusly...
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paulg_68
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The majority of good things provided by the federal government were first provided by one or more states.
The federal government is not innovative. If we eliminated states rights and only had the federal government to rely on, we would get very little innovation.
This is a fact.
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Mastara
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Convince conservatives to become liberal? Blasphemy !
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Remnant_OBrien
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Cawlin posted:
Remnant_OBrien posted:
My statement doesn't need proof...
My statement was "My first example of a freedom would be equal access to the ballot box." That's not even claiming that people don't have equal access [b]My latter statement did that[b]. English you idjit. But seriously, if you're too lazy to go check the state of voting rights in the country you don't care that much about freedom.
So your statement was to provide something that everyone already has and that's an example of what modern liberalism gives us?
If only modern liberalism would actually limit itself thusly...
You're functionally illiterate aren't you.
But seriously. if you're too lazy to go look up the state of voting rights in America you've got no claim to be worried about freedoms.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/10/24/351422/91-year-old-tennessee-woman-cant-vote-because-she-cant-stand-in-line-for-hours/
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Cawlin
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
Cawlin posted:
Remnant_OBrien posted:
My statement doesn't need proof...
My statement was "My first example of a freedom would be equal access to the ballot box." That's not even claiming that people don't have equal access [b]My latter statement did that[b]. English you idjit. But seriously, if you're too lazy to go check the state of voting rights in the country you don't care that much about freedom.
So your statement was to provide something that everyone already has and that's an example of what modern liberalism gives us?
If only modern liberalism would actually limit itself thusly...
You're functionally illiterate aren't you.
But seriously. if you're too lazy to go look up the state of voting rights in America you've got no claim to be worried about freedoms.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/10/24/351422/91-year-old-tennessee-woman-cant-vote-because-she-cant-stand-in-line-for-hours/
Dude, it took you 30 hours to find this sham of a reference to your pointless point and you all ME illiterate?
There's a good reason why I call you Remedial - but of course, even with that moniker I give you too much credit.
As for the supposed denial of voting rights you posted about: God forfcukingbid voters be required to prove their identity. Seriously, is there no end to the lengths Democrats will go in order to get Eppy Quinonez, his 7 kids and all the other illegal aliens to vote for them? Is there no end to the lengths Dems will go to get Shaneequa Johnston and all her 5th generation welfare neighbors to yank the big (D) lever 78 times each?
Seriously dude, I don't believe you even knew about this stupid joke of a pointless point when you started this thread (especially since you admitted you weren't even claiming voters were being denied the right to vote) nor do I believe that you were capable of finding this link on your own. Why don't you tell us who PMed the link to you, it ought to make for a good laugh.
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Fist_de_Yuma
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Liberals think freedom means they get what they want. If they want to vote 78 times then who are those evil conservatives to stop them. They want freedom; which means everyone is a slave to their wants and desires.
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LadyGodiva.
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/10/24/351422/91-year-old-tennessee-woman-cant-vote-because-she-cant-stand-in-line-for-hour s/
What does that have to do with anything? That's a sad situation, which shouldn't happen, but it seems to have various solutions. Wheelchair? Absentee vote? Make sure you have all your documentation before you go to the DMV? Nobody is out to deny these people the right to vote.
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Remnant_OBrien
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And yet magically they have difficulty voting..
Just because you're willing to make excuses for it doesn't mean they aren't having difficulty voting. Is that the same standard you have for other rights? Difficult to exercise is to be expected, and accepted?
Cawlin posted:
Is there no end to the lengths Dems will go to get Shaneequa Johnston and all her 5th generation welfare neighbors to yank the big (D) lever 78 times each?
and with that you're done in this thread.
A: Racist.
B: Denying right to vote based on A.
C. You don't give a rats ass about the right to vote.
Now we just get to see who will come in here and roll around in your garbage.
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Cawlin
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
And yet magically they have difficulty voting..
Just because you're willing to make excuses for it doesn't mean they aren't having difficulty voting. Is that the same standard you have for other rights? Difficult to exercise is to be expected, and accepted?
Cawlin posted:
Is there no end to the lengths Dems will go to get Shaneequa Johnston and all her 5th generation welfare neighbors to yank the big (D) lever 78 times each?
and with that you're done in this thread.
A: Racist.
B: Denying right to vote based on A.
C. You don't give a rats ass about the right to vote.
Now we just get to see who will come in here and roll around in your garbage.
Really there were no stories of voter fraud in the inner city ghettos during the last presidential election? My stories are completely unfounded? It's not too much to ask these people to get a fkn ID man, it's really not. If you call that denial of voting rights, you're an even bigger monkey than I thought.
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Groucho48
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Cawlin posted:
Remnant_OBrien posted:
My statement doesn't need proof...
My statement was "My first example of a freedom would be equal access to the ballot box." That's not even claiming that people don't have equal access. My latter statement did that. English you idjit. But seriously, if you're too lazy to go check the state of voting rights in the country you don't care that much about freedom.
So your statement was to provide something that everyone already has and that's an example of what modern liberalism gives us?
If only modern liberalism would actually limit itself thusly...
A lot of states lead by Republicans are imposing or trying to impose lots of rules that make access to voting more difficult. One of the states now requires official picture IDs to vote, but, specifically says college official IDs don't count, as they don't want all those liberal college kids to vote.
To get a picture ID in, I think S. Carolina you have to bring in a birth certificate or other proof of citizenship. Well, lots of older blacks don't have any documentation because whites didn't consider them important back in the day. This will make it very difficult for 10s of thousands of black folks to vote.
Another state said no early voting on Sundays. That's because lots of black churches organized busing and voter registration, after Sunday service, to get their parishioners to the polls to vote.
In Wisconsin, they instituted the requirement for a picture ID. You could get one for little or no charge from the Auto Bureau, but, at the same time they instituted that, they closed a bunch of Auto Bureaus in Democratic areas.
In one state, they changed around a lot of polling locations and, at the same time, passed a rule saying that voting officials were under no obligation to tell folks who showed up at the wrong station where they needed to go.
The list goes on.
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Cawlin
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Groucho48 posted:
Cawlin posted:
Remnant_OBrien posted:
My statement doesn't need proof...
My statement was "My first example of a freedom would be equal access to the ballot box." That's not even claiming that people don't have equal access. My latter statement did that. English you idjit. But seriously, if you're too lazy to go check the state of voting rights in the country you don't care that much about freedom.
So your statement was to provide something that everyone already has and that's an example of what modern liberalism gives us?
If only modern liberalism would actually limit itself thusly...
A lot of states lead by Republicans are imposing or trying to impose lots of rules that make access to voting more difficult. One of the states now requires official picture IDs to vote, but, specifically says college official IDs don't count, as they don't want all those liberal college kids to vote.
First off, getting a college ID is pretty easy, faking one even easier. Secondly, college students don't vote, and you know this. I live just outside State College, PA where 45,000 college students attend school every year, less than 10% of which vote. I'm pretty sure that the ones who want to vote will actually have a driver's license.
Groucho48 posted:
To get a picture ID in, I think S. Carolina you have to bring in a birth certificate or other proof of citizenship. Well, lots of older blacks don't have any documentation because whites didn't consider them important back in the day. This will make it very difficult for 10s of thousands of black folks to vote.
Tens of thousands eh? Tens of thousands who have managed to collect social security or welfare or have Social Security # and a job but who can't get a driver's license? Yah right.
Groucho48 posted:
Another state said no early voting on Sundays. That's because lots of black churches organized busing and voter registration, after Sunday service, to get their parishioners to the polls to vote.
Well voting is kind of supposed to occur when it's supposed to. I don't know why all these folks couldn't show up to the church and get bussed to the polls on the actual day they're open.
Groucho48 posted:
In Wisconsin, they instituted the requirement for a picture ID. You could get one for little or no charge from the Auto Bureau, but, at the same time they instituted that, they closed a bunch of Auto Bureaus in Democratic areas.
The list goes on.
I don't know why in Wisconsin they closed these DMVs but if I had to guess, I'd guess that if all these 10s of thousands of blacks don't get driver's licenses or non-driver photo IDs that the DMVs really aren't doing that much business in those areas right?
Seriously, why do only Democrats need all these special allowances to vote? Why can't they get an ID and get to the polls on the right day like everyone else?
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Groucho48
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Picture IDs don't prevent voter fraud. You can try to minimize or pooh-pooh what Republicans are doing, but, they are deliberately trying to limit access to the ballot box by groups that traditionally vote Democratic.
Meanwhile, do you have any prrof that "Is there no end to the lengths Dems will go to get Shaneequa Johnston and all her 5th generation welfare neighbors to yank the big (D) lever 78 times each?" is going on? Any whatsoever?
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Liberals need all the voter fraud they can get in order to win elections. The only way they can accomplish this is by allowing anyone to vote no matter their legal status in this country.
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Grymlo posted:
Liberals need all the voter fraud they can get in order to win elections. The only way they can accomplish this is by allowing anyone to vote no matter their legal status in this country.
Nice job memorizing a right wing talking point!
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Cawlin
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Groucho48 posted:
Picture IDs don't prevent voter fraud. You can try to minimize or pooh-pooh what Republicans are doing, but, they are deliberately trying to limit access to the ballot box by groups that traditionally vote Democratic.
Meanwhile, do you have any prrof that "Is there no end to the lengths Dems will go to get Shaneequa Johnston and all her 5th generation welfare neighbors to yank the big (D) lever 78 times each?" is going on? Any whatsoever?
No, but it makes it harder to do, and requires more complicity from others to pull off.
As for proving my question, it was a question. Do you have any proof that it's not going on? Any whatsoever? There were reports of it during the last and other presidential elections as well.
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Cawlin
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Groucho48 posted:
Grymlo posted:
Liberals need all the voter fraud they can get in order to win elections. The only way they can accomplish this is by allowing anyone to vote no matter their legal status in this country.
Nice job memorizing a right wing talking point!
LOL really dude? Your entire post is a memorized talking point - I can tell because you included students - and you know damn well better than that but just slapped it right down there. Tell the truth, did you PM Remedial this link lol?
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Remnant_OBrien
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I'm going to go back to it again, but how is your statement anything other than I don't think black people have a right to vote and am okay with efforts to make it more difficult. You didn't specify that they're not eligible to vote.. you just used some example of a stereotype on welfare and said she doesn't deserve to vote.
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