Voodoo-Dahl
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Why didn't he bother to show up and vote against the NDAA?
http://www.votesmart.org/bill/votes/37467
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Tych2
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Because he is no different than the other douche bags that occupy government. He isn't as mavericky as they would let us to believe.
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Yukishiro1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Because it would hurt him politically in Iowa. Obviously.
By not voting he can get the best of both worlds because people like french-sounding-guy will say "well he didn't vote for it!" and his opponents can't say "but he voted against it!!!!1111"
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imaloon1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Because he was campaigning?
Because his vote would have been no and he's said as much?
Jesus Christ people come on you aren't even making any sense anymore.
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paulg_68
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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If he was afraid of the political damage from voting no, he wouldn't have outright admitted that he would have voted no.
Voodoo is just reposting something he read on DailyKOS and pretending like it was his own original thought.
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Yukishiro1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Ron Paul's whole career had been built on making futile gestures. That he didn't do it here says something.
Seeing imaloon excuse someone from casting a vote on a hugely important piece of legislation from a libertarian perpsective "because he was campaigning" shows you how deluded Ron Paul zombies are. There is no way they would excuse something like that from anyone but their idol.
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Voodoo-Dahl
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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paulg_68 posted:
If he was afraid of the political damage from voting no, he wouldn't have outright admitted that he would have voted no.
Then why not do his job and vote no? Bernie Sanders is a supposed freedom hating socialist and he voted no.
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paulg_68
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Ron Paul's whole career had been built on making futile gestures. That he didn't do it here says something.
Seeing imaloon excuse someone from casting a vote on a hugely important piece of legislation from a libertarian perpsective "because he was campaigning" shows you how deluded Ron Paul zombies are. There is no way they would excuse something like that from anyone but their idol.
Did it pass by 1?
If not, then his vote would have merely been a futile gesture.
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Yukishiro1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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paulg_68 posted:
If he was afraid of the political damage from voting no, he wouldn't have outright admitted that he would have voted no.
Saying you would have voted no is a very different thing from actually doing it. Ron Paul's whole campaign message is "other people say they're conservative, I actually vote like a conservative." Not bothering to actually vote on something so important when that's your mantra is totally lame but most of his supporters won't even let themselves entertain that thought.
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Yukishiro1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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paulg_68 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Ron Paul's whole career had been built on making futile gestures. That he didn't do it here says something.
Seeing imaloon excuse someone from casting a vote on a hugely important piece of legislation from a libertarian perpsective "because he was campaigning" shows you how deluded Ron Paul zombies are. There is no way they would excuse something like that from anyone but their idol.
Did it pass by 1?
If not, then his vote would have merely been a futile gesture.
/facepalm
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paulg_68
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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In a minute you're going to realize you just quoted me proving you wrong.
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Yukishiro1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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No.
Ron Paul has built his political careeer on introducting bills he knows will never pass and voting no on bills he knows will never not pass.
It is totally out of keeping with what he says he is to not bother to actually vote on a bill because his vote won't make a difference.
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cherrim
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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paulg_68 posted:
Did it pass by 1?
If not, then his vote would have merely been a futile gesture.
These things are given:
- The likelihood that an election will come down to a difference of one vote diminishes with the number of voters
- About 125,000,000 Americans voted in the '08 presidential election
- By your own definition, any vote cast in such an election is almost certain to be a futile gesture.
I therefore recommend that paulg_68 abstain from voting in the next presidential election.
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Voodoo-Dahl
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Ron Paul posted:
“The founders wanted to set a high bar for the government to overcome in order to deprive an individual of life or liberty,†Paul, the libertarian congressman from Texas, said Monday in a weekly phone message to supporters. “To lower that bar is to endanger everyone. When the bar is low enough to include political enemies, our descent into totalitarianism is virtually assured. The Patriot Act, as bad as its violations against the Fourth Amendment was, was just one step down the slippery slope. The recently passed National Defense Authorization Act continues that slip into tyranny, and in fact, accelerates it significantly.â€
“The Fifth Amendment is about much more than the right to remain silent in the face of government questioning,†Paul continued. “It contains very basic and very critical stipulations about the due process of law. The government cannot imprison a person for no reason and with no evidence presented and without access to legal council. The danger of the NDAA is its alarmingly vague, undefined criteria for who can be indefinitely detained by the U.S. government without trial.â€
“It is no longer limited to members of Al Qaeda or the Taliban, but anyone accused of substantially supporting such groups or associated forces,†Paul continued. “How closely associated, and what constitutes substantial support? What if it was discovered that someone who committed a terrorist act was once involved with a charity? Or suppose a political candidate? Are all donors of that candidate or supporters of that candidate now suspects and subject to indefinite detainment? Is that charity now an associated force?â€
“The president’s widely expanded view of his own authority to detain Americans indefinitely even on American soil is for the first time in this legislation codified in law,†Paul said. “That should chill all of us to our cores.â€
“The Bill of Rights has no exceptions for really bad people or terrorists or even non-citizens. It is a key check on government power against any person. That is not a weakness in our legal system, it is the very strength of our legal system. The NDAA attempts to justify abridging the Bill of Rights on the theory that rights are suspended in a time of war, and the entire United States is a battlefield in the war on terror. This is a very dangerous development, indeed. Beware.â€
And then doesn't bother to show up and vote against it.
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paulg_68
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Would his vote have affected the outcome or would it merely have been a futile effort?
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ZigmundZag
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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cherrim posted:
paulg_68 posted:
Did it pass by 1?
If not, then his vote would have merely been a futile gesture.
These things are given:
- The likelihood that an election will come down to a difference of one vote diminishes with the number of voters
- About 125,000,000 Americans voted in the '08 presidential election
- By your own definition, any vote cast in such an election is almost certain to be a futile gesture.
I therefore recommend that paulg_68 abstain from voting in the next presidential election.
This is only relevant to elections that are decided beforehand, and yes, people often don't bother to show up when the vote is expected to be lopsided in one direction or the other. Congressional leaders usually know within a range of a few Congresspeople what the result will be for any given legislation long before the voting take place. It was patently obvious that a "No" vote from Paul would have been no more than a symbolic gesture. Usually he loves this sort of grandstanding, but obviously he wasn't in DC to symbolically vote against this one.
There are lots of things to dislike Paul for (both the candidate and our resident douchecanoe). This is not one of them.
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Voodoo-Dahl
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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paulg_68 posted:
Would his vote have affected the outcome or would it merely have been a futile effort?
It's nice to see Ron Paul is as principled as you are.
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paulg_68
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Yuki was complaining about Ron Paul making a career out of futile efforts. Now you guys are complaining that he doesn't make enough futile efforts.
Which is it? Does he do it too much or too little?
I'll wait while you check with DailyKOS for the answer.
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Aerlinthian
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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OP logic fail + meltdown.
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Voodoo-Dahl
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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paulg_68 posted:
Yuki was complaining about Ron Paul making a career out of futile efforts. Now you guys are complaining that he doesn't make enough futile efforts.
Which is it? Does he do it too much or too little?
I'll wait while you check with DailyKOS for the answer.
You know you're getting to Polly when he pulls the DailyKos card.
Honestly I don't know what DailyKos had to say about this, maybe as an avid reader you could link me the post?
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SnipeLord_VN
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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imaloon1 posted:
Because he was campaigning?
Because his vote would have been no and he's said as much?
Jesus Christ people come on you aren't even making any sense anymore.
This, obviously.
These are just getting boring to read now. 
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paulg_68
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Voting no would have been a futile effort in the pursuit of liberty.
Ron Paul becoming President would not be futile.
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Yukishiro1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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That's one of the dumbest Paulg arguments you have made here in a while.
The guy has built his career on saying futile gestures matter and the difference between him and others is that he actually puts his vote where his mouth is. But they apparently don't matter enough to actually bother voting against bad legislation when you could be out trying to get a new job instead.
Again it's one of those things that isn't a huge deal unless you're a kool-aid drinking Ron Paul supporter who thinks everything Ron Paul does is right.
It was not right to skip out on a vote on such important legislation because you want to campaign instead. It doesn't make Ron Paul the devil, but it wasn't right based on his own principles.
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ZigmundZag
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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As I recall, the issue came up in 2008 that Obama had missed a rather high number of votes for such a short stint in Congress. The rationale was given at the time that he had already been campaigning for a year.
Just sayin'.
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imaloon1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Ron Paul's whole career had been built on making futile gestures. That he didn't do it here says something.
Seeing imaloon excuse someone from casting a vote on a hugely important piece of legislation from a libertarian perpsective "because he was campaigning" shows you how deluded Ron Paul zombies are. There is no way they would excuse something like that from anyone but their idol.
The fact that you've got your flame thrower on full blast over Ron Paul is far more telling to me than me actually listening to what the man has said, does say and has been interviewed about. Didn't any of you actually watch that full CNN video? She asked him point blank about the NDAA and he said well I was here in Iowa but were I there I would have most certainly voted no.
YOU CANNOT BE MORE CLEAR THAN THAT.
Goddamn you guys are flailing about like Dr. Paul is the fuggin antichrist or something.
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theredkay1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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paulg_68 posted:
Yuki was complaining about Ron Paul making a career out of futile efforts. Now you guys are complaining that he doesn't make enough futile efforts.
Which is it? Does he do it too much or too little?
I dont think Yuki was complaining that Paul makes lots of futile efforts.
That he makes futile but principled efforts is basically Ron Pauls entire marketing strategy. Its what makes the outpost Ron Paul groupies hearts flutter.
But now that the principled vote might have consequences for the first time in his career....Ron Paul hides. This really cuts at the only good reason ever given to vote for Ron Paul.
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Yukishiro1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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ZigmundZag posted:
As I recall, the issue came up in 2008 that Obama had missed a rather high number of votes for such a short stint in Congress. The rationale was given at the time that he had already been campaigning for a year.
Just sayin'.
Well, it sorta matters what the votes were about. Congress has votes every day on stupid shit like renaming January 10th official Douchetastic Politician Day.
But to the extent that Obama or anyone else skipped out on important votes in order to campaign, that wasn't the right decision either. We elect people to do a job, not to spend their time trying to get another job.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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If he didn't vote no, who would have? When politicians justify their legislation they usually say, "it passed 87-10"
Thank you Ron Paul, for allowing this legislation to pass with nary a whisper.
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Yukishiro1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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imaloon1 posted:
The fact that you've got your flame thrower on full blast over Ron Paul is far more telling to me than me actually listening to what the man has said, does say and has been interviewed about. Didn't any of you actually watch that full CNN video? She asked him point blank about the NDAA and he said well I was here in Iowa but were I there I would have most certainly voted no.
YOU CANNOT BE MORE CLEAR THAN THAT.
Goddamn you guys are flailing about like Dr. Paul is the fuggin antichrist or something.
That you think anyone has their flame thrower on full blast just shows how totally emotionally invested in Ron Paul you are. Nobody is saying Ron Paul is the antichrist because he chose to stay in Iowa and campaign instead of doing the job we elected him to do. Lots of other politicians do the same thing.
It is you crazy Ron Paulistas who think your guy is somehow totally immune to any pressure mere mortals feel and that he can do no wrong.
This is another case where the rational Paul supported would say "yep, he's trading principle for pragmatism but that's ok by me given the rest of his record, no one is perfect." But none of you guys can do that, apparently, because you're so emotionally invested in the saintliness of your candidate.
The thing that is so striking about you Ron Paul people is your sheer fanatical devotion to the guy. You make 2008 Obama kool aid drinkers look rational. It is hard to find even a single one of you that will admit your guy is human and mmakes mistakes. The slightest criticism elicits a completely rabid response.
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ZigmundZag
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
Thank you Ron Paul, for allowing this legislation to pass with nary a whisper.
I agree, he should be making a bigger deal out of this. "Vote for me and I'll fight to repeal the parts of the NDAA that give me the authority to jail you indefinitely!". That would actually be a fairly smart tack for him to take at this point.
Unfortunately, Paul has not typically been known for taking smart tacks on the road to the White House, which is why he'll end up being no more than a footnote in American politics.
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Groucho48
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Sounds like no one need ever to vote on any but the closest issues. After all, their vote doesn't count.
His job is to craft and vote for bills he is in favor of and to try to modify and to vote against bills he is opposed to.
Two of the big issues his supporters claim should make him attractive to liberals are his opposition to military intervention and his devotion to civil liberties. This bill was about both and he didn't bother to show up and do his job. And, his vote might have made a difference. If the % of the House vote went below the 2/3rds need to override a veto, it would have been tougher for Obama to say he wasn't going to veto it. If Paul could have persuaded just a couple of his colleagues to vote Nay, along with himself, it would have been more ammunition to use against Obama and against any of the other Republican candidates Paul is running against.
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Voodoo-Dahl
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Groucho48 posted:
Sounds like no one need ever to vote on any but the closest issues. After all, their vote doesn't count.
His job is to craft and vote for bills he is in favor of and to try to modify and to vote against bills he is opposed to.
Two of the big issues his supporters claim should make him attractive to liberals are his opposition to military intervention and his devotion to civil liberties. This bill was about both and he didn't bother to show up and do his job. And, his vote might have made a difference. If the % of the House vote went below the 2/3rds need to override a veto, it would have been tougher for Obama to say he wasn't going to veto it. If Paul could have persuaded just a couple of his colleagues to vote Nay, along with himself, it would have been more ammunition to use against Obama and against any of the other Republican candidates Paul is running against.
That's a good point. We should totally let Obama off the hook for signing this because his veto would have been a futile effort knowing congress had the votes to override it.
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Aerlinthian
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God I love politics.
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SoBaKi
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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paulg_68 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Ron Paul's whole career had been built on making futile gestures. That he didn't do it here says something.
Seeing imaloon excuse someone from casting a vote on a hugely important piece of legislation from a libertarian perpsective "because he was campaigning" shows you how deluded Ron Paul zombies are. There is no way they would excuse something like that from anyone but their idol.
Did it pass by 1?
If not, then his vote would have merely been a futile gesture.
Wow, talk about missing the point. Then again, it is you that missed it so par for the course.
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Huges07.1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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My goodness, Yuki is /melting all over the place over this Ron Paul thing.
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ZigmundZag
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Groucho48 posted:
Sounds like no one need ever to vote on any but the closest issues. After all, their vote doesn't count.
That's a fairly ridiculous bit of hyperbole, don't you think? Nobody is claiming that Congress should quit their day jobs (well, at least not in this particular context). It's been the norm for members of Congress to miss votes while on the campaign trail for years now. Holding Paul - and only Paul - up to this standard because of some perceived notion that his principals require more of him than they do of other politicians is silly and petty. It certainly wasn't the same chorus complaining when Obama and Kucinich were missing most of their votes in 2008.
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SoBaKi
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Huges07.1 posted:
My goodness, Yuki is /melting all over the place over this Ron Paul thing.
Being the trailer park savant you are, I am not surprised you don't understand the point either.
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Yukishiro1
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Look at what you just typed. Holding Paul to a different standard than other politicians is stupid and petty? Isn't his whole campaign schpeil that he is not like other politicians and he does what's right no matter the consequences?
If Paul supporters admit their guy is just like any other politician things like this wouldn't have legs. But they don't. That's the whole point.
You can't claim to be cut from different cloth and then justify not doing your job by saying no one else does it too.
Like I said, it's not a huge deal. It's another thing like the newsletters that reflects poorly on Paul but is hardly a deal breaker.
But what I find fascinating is we can't find a single ron paul supporter here that is willing to admit things like that. Every little thing is rabidly defended even when it's not defensible based on Ron Paul's own articulation of what kind of guy he is.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Ron Paul fanbois posted:
He's a different kind of politician!
Ron Paul fanbois posted:
Hey, don't treat him different than the other politicians! Its just business as usual!
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ZigmundZag
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Well, yes, Paul supporters are a special sort of zealot, even among politicos. I don't really find it to be all that fascinating, though. We've been seeing it here for several years. Now that his campaign is actually picking up some steam and coming under scrutiny (possibly for the first time ever), we're just seeing more of it is all.
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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theredkay1 posted:
But now that the principled vote might have consequences for the first time in his career....Ron Paul hides.
What consequences are those? If Ron Paul had voted no, what would have changed?
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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The vote count for one.
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paulg_68
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So what?
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SoBaKi
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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paulg_68 posted:
theredkay1 posted:
But now that the principled vote might have consequences for the first time in his career....Ron Paul hides.
What consequences are those? If Ron Paul had voted no, what would have changed?
The fact that the answer is already known is meaningless. Quit being so goddamn obtuse.
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Yukishiro1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Why bother to ever vote no on something that is going to pass? Is that really the argument you're making Paul?
We elect him to do a job. That job includes voting. Not voting on important legislation "because no one else does it and it wouldn't matter anyhow" is not a good reason coming from a guy who says doing the right thing is important even if you no one agrees with you.
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ZigmundZag
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It's not just "because it doesn't matter". I know most of you are capable of handling a logic statement containing multiple conditions, or at least you sure pretend to be when it suits you. It's pretty simple. If you're campaigning and the vote isn't close, why stop campaigning in order to to throw a symbolic vote at the bill? If you're not campaigning and it's not close, you're supposed to be in DC anyhow so you should probably vote. If you're campaigning and the vote is close, you should probably go back and put your vote in.
Personally I would liked to have seen Ron Paul make a bigger issue out of this. As it is he's just kind of vaguely acknowledging that it's bad and continuing the same formula for his campaign that hasn't worked in 8 years.
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Yukishiro1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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ZigmundZag posted:
If you're campaigning and the vote isn't close, why stop campaigning in order to to throw a symbolic vote at the bill?
Because that would be the right thing to do if you really care about civil liberties?
If your point is that Ron Paul is like any other politician and in this case he choose to try to advance his own career over doing his current job, I agree. But I don't think his supporters will.
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Desnoxvu
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAWYRa8d2Eo
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paulg_68
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Why bother to ever vote no on something that is going to pass? Is that really the argument you're making Paul?
No. I argued that his time was better spent campaigning in Iowa.
Now that I've answered your question, you answer mine. What are the negative consequences of Ron Paul not voting on this bill?
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Tych2
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It looks bad to some people that they want voting for him?
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Desnoxvu
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Tych2 posted:
It looks bad to some people that they want voting for him?
That doesn't make sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt_hgliXrgA
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Elocism
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Desnoxvu
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Elocism posted:
Elo, you are a troll. I clicked my link and watched the vid and you still posted before me. That is what a troll does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWEjvCRPrCo
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Elocism
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i dont understand the question
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Yukishiro1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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paulg_68 posted:
What are the negative consequences of Ron Paul not voting on this bill?
I think it sends a pretty clear message about his priorities. Apparently campaigning for a better job is more important than showing up to register opposition to what is clearly an awful bill from a libertarian point of view.
Being there and voting "no" is always going to have a greater impact than saying "oh I'd probably vote no if I wasn't too busy trying to get another job instead of doing my current one" like he did.
If ever there was a time to take a principled stand - which Ron Paul has made his career supposedly doing, if you talk to Ron Paul supporters - this was it. Instead the timing was bad so he didn't bother to show up.
You can spin and spin and spin but it doesn't change the fact that he decided it was better to campaign for another job than vote no against an awful bill totally at odds with his political views.
If he really cared about the issue he would be back in washington on the floor giving them hell. Instead he's shaking the hands of a bunch of morons in Iowa.
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Desnoxvu
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He has been the lone vote on every bill against civil rights. Remember he is the only one trying to repeal the patriot act. He was on the campaign trail so don't act self righteous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rlz8zQoLs1s
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Tych2
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Desnoxvu posted:
Tych2 posted:
It looks bad to some people that they want voting for him?
That doesn't make sense.
I was answering Paul's question. Perhaps English isn't your primary.
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Desnoxvu posted:
He has been the lone vote on every bill against civil rights. Remember he is the only one trying to repeal the patriot act. He was on the campaign trail so don't act self righteous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rlz8zQoLs1s
Apparently that's meaningless. You cant have it both ways, either its a wasted vote when its such a large margin, or he's making a stand and failed to stand up this time.
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Yukishiro1
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If Ron Paul is some great defender of civil liberties...
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Desnoxvu posted:
He has been the lone vote on every bill against civil rights.
Except this one apparently. When over 100 members of the house voted against it, but he was too busy shaking hands in Iowa to bother to show up to stand in solidarity with those no voters.
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Desnoxvu
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Here is his stance on NDAA. Don't question his votes on civil liberties without research.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm19GQKNWeM
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Yukishiro1
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Desnoxvu posted:
He could have shown up and been the lone 1 vote against it.
Well, actually he'd be standing with over 100 other people who actually bothered to come in and vote no. But whatever. Apparently shaking hands in Iowa is more important to him.
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Desnoxvu
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I edited my post once I checked the vote count. Usually he is the lone vote against civil liberty attacks. Watch the vid I posted.
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Yukishiro1
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Well, apparently he is a voice speaking out against abridgement of civil liberties, except if there's a shindig in Iowa he could be at instead. Then he'll leave civil liberties in the lurch to go shake some hands.
Ron Paul, the great defender of civil liberties as long as it doesn't cost him anything to do so!
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Manegarm
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What you guys need to learn is that Politicians are always more interested in their own grandeur then what is good for the nation.. You need to drop this messiah complex and just accept that your politicians are mere humans.
Ron Paul to me just seems contrived, he's an outsider that's been incumbent longer then I have been alive.
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Bobvillas
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I am not a Ron Paul supporter but I don't find this to be a problem. If he feels like he can get the most bang for his buck by campaigning then go for it.
Some times you weigh your options and decide where you can do the most good.
Just looked up his record. He has a lot of Did not Votes in the last 3 months. Looks like he has decided he can do more good by campaigning.
http://www.votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/296/
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NuEM
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Why is he campaigning? He's never going to be president, so why bother right? I know the answer to this, but the brain dead morons don't want to hear it.
America has cancer and Ron Paul is selling snake oil.
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NuEM posted:
America has cancer and Ron Paul is selling snake oil.
First, lets start with what is your claim of America's cancer. And please spell that out so that we have clarity.
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Desnoxvu posted:
Here is his stance on NDAA. Don't question his votes on civil liberties without research.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm19GQKNWeM
Meaningless. If he can't put up when it counts, he should sit down and shut up.
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Aerlinthian posted:
NuEM posted:
America has cancer and Ron Paul is selling snake oil.
First, lets start with what is your claim of America's cancer. And please spell that out so that we have clarity.
Mainly the inability of the American public to shape the fate of their own nation, which seems to be at the mercy of a newly emerged ruling class.
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NuEM posted:
Aerlinthian posted:
NuEM posted:
America has cancer and Ron Paul is selling snake oil.
First, lets start with what is your claim of America's cancer. And please spell that out so that we have clarity.
Mainly the inability of the American public to shape the fate of their own nation, which seems to be at the mercy of a newly emerged ruling class.
Okay.. But considering that Dr Paul has very firmly established himself as a non establishment type (through a very proven track record), how do your two sentiments square with each other? 
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NuEM
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He's just telling a certain group of people what they want to hear, fully aware that he will never be in the position of having some actual responsibility. He isn't going to change anything. He doesn't want to. He's happy gaming the system in his own comfortable niche.
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Groucho48
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I would say that Paul holds as much of the blame for the bill passing as Obama does---not much, but, symbolically, it would have been better if they had actually made a principled stand.
Anyone have any idea if Paul always skips the defense budget voting? Be interesting to see if he ended up voting for or against funding all those bases and wars and things he is so vehemently against.
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