Sinlock
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Seriously.
The entire station is supposed to be this great trading post. All this commerce is supposed to flow through there. The problem is - what commerce? Replicators are a sound and known technology. It just doesn't make any sense. True - they said that 'Gold Pressed Latinum' can't be replicated "for some reason" - but so what? Anything you could *buy* with latinum, you could replicate.
It just doesn't make any sense and is stupid.
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Manegarm
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It's a conundrum that's kept me sleepless, twisting and turning in my bed many a night..
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I always imagined that there were compounds that they couldn't replicate without paying vast sums of money. But you have to suspend some belief for sure.
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DS9 Sucked. Worst of all the ST series IMO. It was like watching a futuristic version of a gas station and the same loser local characters coming in with their dumb uneventful stories
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not sure which was worse.. neelix or jarjar
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Sinlock
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I like some aspects of DS9. I like Odo. I like Quark.
Probably the worst aspect is the Bajorins loser religion episodes. Any episode where they are having some quandary with the prophets or some nonsense is always going to suck.
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Yukishiro1
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A lot of things about the story make marginal sense. You can tell they just stole the B5 setup and tried to iron out the inconsistencies with star trek along the way.
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NuEM
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Sinlock posted:
Seriously.
The entire station is supposed to be this great trading post. All this commerce is supposed to flow through there. The problem is - what commerce? Replicators are a sound and known technology. It just doesn't make any sense. True - they said that 'Gold Pressed Latinum' can't be replicated "for some reason" - but so what? Anything you could *buy* with latinum, you could replicate.
It just doesn't make any sense and is stupid.
Dude if you just replicate anything without buying a proper license from the Intergalactic Sony-Warner Empire you're violating the Quantum-Digital Eon Copyright Act, which not only makes you a robber and thief but also a likely pedophile!
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Sinlock posted:
Seriously.
The entire station is supposed to be this great trading post. All this commerce is supposed to flow through there. The problem is - what commerce? Replicators are a sound and known technology. It just doesn't make any sense. True - they said that 'Gold Pressed Latinum' can't be replicated "for some reason" - but so what? Anything you could *buy* with latinum, you could replicate.
It just doesn't make any sense and is stupid.
Star Trek tech has always required a fair amount of hand-waving and "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" moments. Transporters are essentially fax machines with a shredder installed on the transmitting end. Artificial gravity generators are apparently the most sturdy thing on a starship since they hardly ever unexpectedly go out even when a ship has been nearly destroyed. And universal translators are embedded at birth, also almost never break down (far less frequently than a personnel fax/shredder does, anyhow) and cause your lips to actually move like the language you're hearing...yet Sisko still needed to perform a wedding in Bajoran and Picard still needed to learn Klingon.
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Yossarian_42
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I hated DS9 at first but when it was on 2-3 times a day back when Spike TV wasn't garbage I watched it all and really enjoyed it. The only real downside is the Bajoran religion nonsense in the later seasons.
TNG > DS9 > TOS > Voyager > Enterprise
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ZigmundZag
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The Bajoran religious episodes wouldn't be that bad if they didn't almost always hinge upon a crisis of faith experienced by Kira Nerys. She can't even keep her New York accent in check half the time.
Worse than the Bajoran faith episodes are the Ferengi comedy relief ones. It's like watching a bad 70's sitcom where there was no laugh track because there's no funny.
I'm just starting into Season 6. Glad to see there's finally a Dominion War instead of Jem'Hadar popping up every few episodes saying "Next time we meet, it will be on the field of battle!"
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Yukishiro1
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The dominion war starts strong and ends weak like most wars in sci-fi.
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ZigmundZag
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Yukishiro1 posted:
The dominion war starts strong and ends weak like most wars in sci-fi.
I kinda figured as much. I don't expect they'll get the satisfaction of killing off Gul Dukat...he's become a vaguely sympathetic character over the seasons. Killing off Weyoun wouldn't do any good, either, since a new Weyoun clone would show up a few episodes later. I expect everyone is just going to stand around and say "The war is over! Yay!" with an episode or two exploring how everything is just like before, except the crew are all so different.
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Yukishiro1
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Well, bad stuff does happen, but mainly to the star trek verison of brown people.
Also, they manage to totally ruin gul dukat's character, which is unfortunate since he's the best villain star trek has ever had.
There's also a lame twist and a deus ex machina to render the twist meaningless after a few episodes.
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I always liked DS9. Particularly during the war seasons. I also liked how they fleshed out the species and all their traits
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Star trek technology is never taken to its logical conclusion.
Teleporters for instance could be used to cure any disease or injury, or even used as a weapon. Have a disease? use the transporter to eliminate it and repair the damage. Want different colour eyes, or even a sex change? scan in your pattern, then program the appropriate alterations to the pattern into the teleporter.
You could even store backup patterns of the crew in the pattern buffer and recreate them if they die. Or even create long term storage of any cargo...who needs live settlers for a new colony when you could select an appropriate colony team, store patterns of the team and the any equipment/livestock, then replicate them from the teleporters at site. No fuss, no muss, minimal crew and start up costs for the colony ships. Everything is stored on solid state databases.
Why not use holographic technology to create instantly reconfigurable ship interiors? You have intruders? "Computer..interior configuration Beta", then holographically created marines and security systems start to defend the ship.
And i still don't get why apparently advanced aliens like the klingons and ferengi can't understand the benefits of dental surgery and good oral hygiene.
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Sinlock
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ZigmundZag posted:
Star Trek tech has always required a fair amount of hand-waving and "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" moments.
I know that and accept that, but this goes beyond hand waving. The hand waving was in the introduction of replicators in the first place. We had to pretend that this was a device that made sense.
The problem I have is that we're supposed to suddenly forget about replicators - even though the show does still mention them from time to time - and believe this trade station based on commerce could even exist. It's just really poorly thought out.
In other news, I googled 'Nana Visitor Topless' yesterday and didn't find anything except really bad photohack jobs.
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What's the story on what can and can't be replicated?
I think they can replicate simple things like food or clothing, but they cannot replicate something as complex as a phaser.
Anyone know the details on what can and cannot be replicated?
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Yukishiro1
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You can apparently transport a phaser so why not replicate it?
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Beats me. It's just something I seem to remember hearing in a TNG ep once.
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Sinlock
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paulg_68 posted:
What's the story on what can and can't be replicated?
Wiki!
Wikipedia posted:
A replicator can create any inanimate matter, as long as the desired molecular structure is on file, but it cannot create antimatter, dilithium, latinum, or a living organism of any kind; in the case of living organisms, non-canon works such as the Star Trek: the Next Generation Technical Manual state that, though the replicators use a form of transporter technology, it's at such a low resolution that creating living tissue is a physical impossibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicator_%28Star_Trek%29
It can do this - yet commerce is alive and well on DS9? That one cardassian dude is a tailor - why have a tailor at all when you can replicate new pants that fit? Why have Quarks sell you drinks when you can replicate drinks for free? Just none of it makes sense at all.
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Sinlock posted:
paulg_68 posted:
What's the story on what can and can't be replicated?
Wiki!
Wikipedia posted:
A replicator can create any inanimate matter, as long as the desired molecular structure is on file, but it cannot create antimatter, dilithium, latinum, or a living organism of any kind; in the case of living organisms, non-canon works such as the Star Trek: the Next Generation Technical Manual state that, though the replicators use a form of transporter technology, it's at such a low resolution that creating living tissue is a physical impossibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicator_%28Star_Trek%29
It can do this - yet commerce is alive and well on DS9? That one cardassian dude is a tailor - why have a tailor at all when you can replicate new pants that fit? Why have Quarks sell you drinks when you can replicate drinks for free? Just none of it makes sense at all.
Maybe the money is in making unique replicator designs.
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Seething199
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at a chemical level, food is far more complex than a phaser.
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Yossarian_42
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People go to the bar for the social aspect. They also pay for access to Quark's holosuite. Perhaps people prefer real clothes to replicated clothes, that seems like a pretty realistic conceit.
Does every space faring culture have replicators?
I'm sure there are a number of things to trade that can't be replicated. Energy sources, medicine, etc. I'm equally sure there is a massive collectors market for non-replicated things such as original books, clothes, artifacts, etc. What about things too large to easily replicate? I'm sure more than a few ships have traded hands at DS9, not to mention large spaceship parts.
There is also the buying and selling of information as well as services. If you need to hire a man to do a thing where would you go? Perhaps Quark's on Deep Space 9?
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Sinlock
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Yossarian_42 posted:
I'm sure there are a number of things to trade that can't be replicated. Energy sources, medicine, etc. I'm equally sure there is a massive collectors market for non-replicated things such as original books, clothes, artifacts, etc. What about things too large to easily replicate? I'm sure more than a few ships have traded hands at DS9, not to mention large spaceship parts.
A replicator can convert any object to energy in order to use it to replicate other items.
Medicine can definitely be replicated; there have been many episodes where Beverly Crusher replicates some anti-dote or other nonsense once she knows the molecular structure.
As far as spaceship parts, from the wiki:
Wikipedia posted:
...in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, industrial replicators are used to replicate large components of ships, shuttlecraft, and other pieces of this sort, which are later used in shipyards to construct such vessels. In this manner, as few as 15 industrial replicators are enough to replicate the components needed to build a fleet of starships or to help a civilization recover from a planet-wide natural disaster.
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paulg_68 posted:
What's the story on what can and can't be replicated?
I think they can replicate simple things like food or clothing, but they cannot replicate something as complex as a phaser.
Anyone know the details on what can and cannot be replicated?
There's a DS9 episode where replicators in Ops are used to create some type of automatic beam weapon sophisticated enough to target only non-Cardassians, so that theory is pretty much shot to hell, so to speak. The technology is used to support the story, not the other way around. If you really want to lose every bit of Star Trek immersion you've ever felt, think about how the latest movie handled the alternate timeline scenario vs. how every single episode of Star Trek before that handled it.
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How DS9 was born: Writer of Babylon5 went to producers of Star Trek, they read his scripts and then went to next room, lots of copying machine sounds were heard and then they returned, gave the guy ripped open script and said "naww we dont need this, bye!"
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I always figured that for the trading stuff is because though a replicator can replicate almost anything it probably takes more energy to replicate something then it does to simply trade for it?
maybe?
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Lyndrek posted:
I always figured that for the trading stuff is because though a replicator can replicate almost anything it probably takes more energy to replicate something then it does to simply trade for it?
maybe?
Hey that pink goo that replicators use to make stuff with isnt free!
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Sinlock posted:
That one cardassian dude is a tailor - why have a tailor at all when you can replicate new pants that fit?
The Cardassian tailor Garak was one of the best characters on DS9. As I understand it, it was a bit of a fluke that they got that character going.
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GrymmDAOC
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b5 was originally pitched to paramount as a trek series 
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Sinlock
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Aerlinthian posted:
Sinlock posted:
That one cardassian dude is a tailor - why have a tailor at all when you can replicate new pants that fit?
The Cardassian tailor Garak was one of the best characters on DS9. As I understand it, it was a bit of a fluke that they got that character going.
He's a great character - I'm just pointing out that his business is absurd.
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GrymmDAOC posted:
b5 was originally pitched to paramount as a trek series
Where did you get that from?
Whats his face tried to pitch a trek series to paramount in 2004. And he tried to pitch B5 to them before he made it. But I don't think he tried to pitch B5 as a trek series.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
GrymmDAOC posted:
b5 was originally pitched to paramount as a trek series
Where did you get that from?
Whats his face tried to pitch a trek series to paramount in 2004. And he tried to pitch B5 to them before he made it. But I don't think he tried to pitch B5 as a trek series.
He tried to pitch B5 to Paramount, Paramount told him no but used his story as a core to make DS9...thats how the writer of B5 said it anyway.
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ZigmundZag
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The Existence of Replicators Completely Ruins the Idea of Deep Space Nine
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The point being that the creator of B5 is butthurt that Paramount made a space station-focused series after his pitch was rejected. Because, obviously, the idea of a show based on a station that sits in space is super original and couldn't have possibly been something that the writers at Star Trek had considered before.
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Yukishiro1
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The similarities go quite a bit beyond just that.
And actually setting a star trek series on a space station instead of a ship was a pretty big departure. I'm not sure they would have considered it before JMS tried to pitch B5 to them.
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GrymmDAOC
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The Existence of Replicators Completely Ruins the Idea of Deep Space Nine
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When JMS pitched B5 to paramount, he gave them a copy of his fluff bible, in which he had everything detailed, including a treatment of the first few seasons.
http://www.firstones.com/wiki/Similarities_between_Babylon_5_and_Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine
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Groucho48
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The Existence of Replicators Completely Ruins the Idea of Deep Space Nine
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I never watched DS9 but couldn't they get around all the problems by saying that replicators used a lot of energy to replicate something? Like $30 worth of energy to create a $10 T-shirt?
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Sinlock
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Yukishiro1 posted:
The similarities go quite a bit beyond just that.
They do.
Both series are named after a space station name with a single-digit number
Both series premiered in 1993, and were set aboard space stations that were hubs of interstellar trade and politics.
Both stations were located beside portals to distant places. (B5 guarded a hyperspace "jumpgate"; DS9 guarded the mouth of a wormhole.)
Both series originally featured a shapeshifter character; however, Babylon 5 dropped that element before filming, replacing it with occasional characters using various illusory and camouflage mechanisms.
Both Captains enjoy baseball.
Both started off with unmarried commanders haunted by a recent conflict.
Both commanders had a girlfriend who was a freighter captain, Carolyn Sykes for Commander Sinclair and Kasidy Yates for Captain Sisko.
The commander of each station eventually became a religious figure who fulfilled a prophecy, advised by enigmatic aliens who were regarded as spiritual beings.
In both series the spiritual beings (the Vorlons, the Prophets) had an enemy (the Shadows, the Pah Wraiths) generally viewed as evil spirits by other races, with whom they had been at war for millennia.
Both series build up to a war between Humans and a militarily powerful, hard-to-detect enemy (the invisible Shadows, the shapeshifting Founders).
Both series had a sarcastic, cynical but dedicated head of security who started out as perceptive and extremely competent, but later succumbed to insecurity and compulsion (Garibaldi's drinking, Odo's link with the female Shapeshifter).
Both series had an idealistic young doctor with a hidden secret (Bashir's genetic enhancement, Franklin's involvement with the Underground). Both doctors also had strained relationships with their fathers.
Both series involved the use of genetically engineered diseases, designed to work against a specific group (Changelings, Markab, Human and Narn Telepaths, others) as a means of control or genocide.
The second-in-command of each station was a woman with a hot temper who had lost a family member in a war.
Central to each series were two alien races, one of which had until recently occupied and oppressed the home planet of the other. Furthermore: The oppressed race was a deeply religious one.
The oppressors in both series were later manipulated by a powerful alien race to achieve its goals.
This manipulation occurred via a regular character in the series belonging to the oppressor race, who vacillated between 'good' and 'evil' through the course of the series, ultimately being taken over completely by powerful evil forces, which eventually led to their untimely deaths.
The plot of each series eventually centered around a war against the oppressors and those who manipulated them.
These wars resulted in the devastations of the former-oppressors' homeworlds.
Both series involved an alien race who had once been humanity's main enemies, but were now strong (but often troublesome) allies (Klingons, Minbari).
Both series involve a character who must deal with the conflict between their alien heritage, and their adopted human qualities (Worf, Delenn).
Each series added a small, tough starship, each the first of its kind, during the third season: DS9's Defiant and B5's White Star.
Each series includes a sinister organization working within the humans' government: DS9's Section 31 and B5's Bureau 13, not to mention Psi Corps and Nightwatch as well.
Each series had a male character named "Dukat" (though B5's is spelled "Dukhat") and each series had a female character named "Lyta" (although DS9's is spelled "Leeta").
Each Station was administered by an Earth based government (Earth Alliance in B5, the Federation in DS9) but was not in that government's territory.
In the first season finales of both series, the character frequently regarded as the "everyman" (Miles O'Brien on DS9, Michael Garibaldi on B5) is betrayed by his assistant in an assassination attempt.
Both series have a character who is the sidekick from an egocentric culture (Vir the Centauri and Rom the Ferengi). They both have values that are more "human" than those of their culture and are therefore seen as poor excuses for members of their race. Despite all this, they both end up as the leaders of their race by the end of the series.
Both series featured a six-episode story arc at the beginning of their penultimate seasons that chronicled a major turning point in their respective wars (the defeat of the Shadows and Vorlons in B5, and the retaking of the station from the Dominion in DS9).
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__Bonk__
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The Existence of Replicators Completely Ruins the Idea of Deep Space Nine
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I would replicate a hot chick
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Sinlock
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__Bonk__ posted:
I would replicate a hot chick
You cannot replicate living organic material. It would have to be a dead hot chick.
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__Bonk__
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Use the transporter then. You can do tons of trick with that
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ZigmundZag
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Sinlock posted:
__Bonk__ posted:
I would replicate a hot chick
You cannot replicate living organic material. It would have to be a dead hot chick.
Besides, that's what holosuites are for.
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GrymmDAOC
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__Bonk__ posted:
Use the transporter then. You can do tons of trick with that
Exactly. Copy the pattern in the buffer, then transport.
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__Bonk__
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Why not use the transporter as replicator?
Star Trek just seems to be realistic. It really isnt at all. Its just pop sci fi.
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ZigmundZag
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You do know what "fiction" means, right?
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__Bonk__
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As a long time reader of real hard science fiction I can say that Star Trek while entertaining is pure crap
Its pop sci fi
Make something by Dan Simmons into a movie instead
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ZigmundZag
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I'm sure Paramount and the heirs of the Roddenberry estate are hurt by your assessment.
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__Bonk__
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I speak the truth. Its drivel
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