Vault_News
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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Nethaera posted:
You are mistaking the developers looking at the game with a critical eye with the claim that it was a "failure". We've seen a wide spectrum of opinions over Cataclysm and we're not afraid to look at what worked and didn't work (as we do with each expansion and game as a whole) and try to find better ways of doing things. I heard differing opinions overall during BlizzCon, but not once did I get the impression that any of those opinions boiled down to "Cataclysm sucks" as a whole. They had key elements that they disliked or thought could be improved on, but throwing the whole thing out the window as a "failure" is and should be considered a bit extreme don't you think?
As always, we want to keep learning and growing from each iteration of the game and that means that we're going to do that by continuing to look for your constructive feedback as well.
________
It was in response to the OP who queried:
During Blizzcon I noticed a lot of:
"With cata we went to far with...."
A lot of people have been talking since the expansion hit about the way questing had turned into a dumbed-down, linear faceroll where you virtually had to TRY to get killed if you wanted to die.
A lot of people talking about how heroics weren't "hard" like conquering a difficult peak on a mountain climb but were "hard" like peeling 1000 potatoes.
I think the drop off in subcriptions is a direct reflection of these mistakes.
I'm really glad that both these areas are being addressed, particularly with regard to questing going back to a less phased, less linear, more hub-based experience. Let's hope they nail the mix right this time.
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Quazimortal
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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Artard@Blizzard posted:
I heard differing opinions overall during BlizzCon, but not once did I get the impression that any of those opinions boiled down to "Cataclysm sucks" as a whole.
Of course not genius, no one who hated Cata flat out is gonna pay you more money to go to your stupid event.
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Arunne
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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Quazimortal posted:
Artard@Blizzard posted:
I heard differing opinions overall during BlizzCon, but not once did I get the impression that any of those opinions boiled down to "Cataclysm sucks" as a whole.
Of course not genius, no one who hated Cata flat out is gonna pay you more money to go to your stupid event.
This x1000. If someone is so pissed and hated your ex-pac, would they really go to blizcon.
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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Blizzard blinders on full blast.
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With a lil f2p CoH.
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Sprawl-zero1eye-
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Subject:
Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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Quazimortal posted:
Artard@Blizzard posted:
I heard differing opinions overall during BlizzCon, but not once did I get the impression that any of those opinions boiled down to "Cataclysm sucks" as a whole.
Of course not genius, no one who hated Cata flat out is gonna pay you more money to go to your stupid event.
Yeah, can't say that was the wisest response. 
All the same, if we are being picky, I liked some things of Cataclysm, but they are right, a lot of what was introduced turned me off the WoW.
Things like:
- Excessive Phasing
- Very linear questing
- Speed questing (you would be out of an area before you explored it all)
- Painful trash mobs in 5-mans (who knows how it is now though)
- Dumbed down talent trees (a huge one for me)
- Outdoor PvP completely ignored (yes I know it hasn't been popular for a while, but there was always a few of us out there that rolled with our flag up)
And of course, 5 years... so kinda tired of it all. MoP should be fun for a while, but probably not going to win me back as a diehard fan either.
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Spookysheep
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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Naethera, like other blizzard spokespeople just continues to show what a retarded idiot she is.
Blizzard REALLLLLLLY needs to get their people to STFU and quit speaking. Every time they open their mouth they lose more subscribers.
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Azure-TheBlueOne
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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Well of course they can't just come out and say they released a craptastic expansion. Our bad. Please buy the next one!
I mean, it took Mythic ages and a couple more expansions to begin to admit that ToA was a big mistake, and they were no where near the same level.
If they didn't mostly agree, we probably wouldn't have seen this response complete with spin. Reading between the lines in that post or on their statements over the past couple months (we went too far with...), I think you can tell they agree (for the most part) that Cata was bad for business. They will try to spin that, of course, because no one likes to fail.
Hopefully they really did learn something from it though.
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Ugh_Lancelot
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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Vault_News posted:
A lot of people have been talking since the expansion hit about the way questing had turned into a dumbed-down, linear faceroll where you virtually had to TRY to get killed if you wanted to die.
A lot of people talking about how heroics weren't "hard" like conquering a difficult peak on a mountain climb but were "hard" like peeling 1000 potatoes.
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Shenron_
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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in relation to the other 2 yes it was. bc was awesome, wotlk was good enough, but cataclysm was a disappointment. however its still better than anything else out there, but that isn't saying much. the mmorpg industry sucks these days if had grown up during these times i never woulda been a gamer.
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bewhatever
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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Personally I thought DAoC Catacombs was a failed expansion on the order of Cataclysm. Acknowledging that TOA took away the RvR which had been the main attraction of the game and sent people back into a 6 month PvE grind which was not optional to compete...
Concur that Cataclysm took away the best things about WoW: the 1-60 open world and questing experience. It was as if the devs had no clue what was good about WoW.
You know, if I went to a Star Trek movie, and there was no spaceship, that would probably be the last Star Trek movie I went to. My expectations are set that because it has the Star Trek name, a fairly complete "world" will be maintained. And the world isn't the pixels, it's the way it works.
Likewise if I went to a Rocky movie and didn't see boxers, or to a Star Wars movie without lightsabers, or a Perry Mason TV episode without a courtroom scene, or a beach resort in Hawaii without a beach, or a ski resort in Colorado without ski slopes...regardless of what was delivered, I had paid for entertainment, and didn't get the experience I was expecting.
MMO's are an entertainment product. what the customer is buying is an emotional experience, much like a movie. In an MMO, I expect a world, places I can return to which are the same, and which I painstakingly explored over a period of 6 months to a year. When an expansion comes out, I expect the world to get bigger, so there's more to experience. The questing is a tool for assisting me in exploring the world. The Cataclysm devs lost track of this basic about MMOs, and turned questing into an end goal instead of a means. Used phasing to be sure I couldn't go back to the world I had explored. Oh, and gratuitously redid so much artwork they had to do low quality detail, unlike the original game with painstakingly hand painted textures. Grating, breaks immersion.
There is a basic class about marketing, which my employer sent me to decades ago. Called QFD, for Quality Function Deployment, which is the transliteration of the Japanese name of the original process. Talks about understanding your customer -- and carefully segmenting your customers -- understanding what they need but don't say, need and say, and would be delighted by. Then you choose your features deliberately so each is traceable to customer needs. And when there are customer needs in conflict, you admit it and make deliberate, consistent decisions. This is not rocket science. It's really basic marketing.
For both Cataclysm and the newly announced expansion, it is clear that Blizz has not done this basic marketing. If Blizz had tested the Cataclysm concept on sample customers from various segments (explorer, raider, solo player, social, etc...not that I can segment off the top of my head) it would have been clear that the basic concept would offend such a large fraction of the customer base that they would lose half their subscribers (or some number, accurate to 1%). Instead, Blizz was surprised by the reaction, and the attrition.
Basic failure. Basic failure in marketing. Basic failure of the management chain. When stuff like that happens in a serious company, things like 3 levels of management getting fired happen. And anyone in the chain of command who allowed such a marketing failure to happen twice is, well, a failure, and that goes all the way up the chain to Activision's board of directors. Sorry, this is a business.
Left partway into cataclysm, without ever seeing a heroic, and won't be back to see the pandas.
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Auenwing
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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So many things I wanted to post and just could not bring myself to spend the time/energy doing so.
I think I can sum up everything I think about Cata as simply this:
One of the legitimate ways to define "failure" is: subnormal quality.
In which case, yes, from my customer experience, Cata was a failure.
It also failed to retain my guild as customers.
Oh, and PS:
MoP is failing to engage any interest in us coming back.
I guess that Cata will not end up being the "only" failed expansion.
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Sociop
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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I think BC was the first "failed" expansion, they had a huge spike of interest at release time but that quickly went away, it killed a lot of big guilds, raids were few and far between, and it marked the start of Ghostcrawlers systematic dumbing down of the game, particularly in the area of talents and builds.
Wrath, leveled off that downhill slide, and marked the return of the big guilds, raids were common again, even though there was more dumbing down on the talents-spec side and class balance was still poor to say the least, the game was much improved over BC.
Then Cata ran it right off the cliff where it now sits on a ledge, the ledge is showing stress fractures so they have summoned all their developer brilliance and put all their money on freaking Pandas pulling them back up to safety before that ledge gives way.
I think they will try one more expansion after the Panda failure, under a new management, and development team, that one will probably be very good but to little to late.
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Sociop
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bewhatever posted:
Basic failure. Basic failure in marketing. Basic failure of the management chain. When stuff like that happens in a serious company, things like 3 levels of management getting fired happen. And anyone in the chain of command who allowed such a marketing failure to happen twice is, well, a failure, and that goes all the way up the chain to Activision's board of directors. Sorry, this is a business.
Left partway into cataclysm, without ever seeing a heroic, and won't be back to see the pandas.
I am not sure if it is basic failure or they just think they are too big to fail and let status quo rule.
Who knows maybe they have a couple congressmen in their pocket and a government bailout already lined up.
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Kirkulees
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Meh, I just got bored with the the game and MMO's in general. Games used to draw me in due to the newness and unexplored quality but this doesn't exit anymore whether it be an expansion or a brand new game. I feel the same way about console gaming and have for several years now. It all feels the same, it's ultimately boring and unfulfilling.
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Arunne
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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Auenwing posted:
So many things I wanted to post and just could not bring myself to spend the time/energy doing so.
I think I can sum up everything I think about Cata as simply this:
One of the legitimate ways to define "failure" is: subnormal quality.
In which case, yes, from my customer experience, Cata was a failure.
It also failed to retain my guild as customers.
Oh, and PS:
MoP is failing to engage any interest in us coming back.
I guess that Cata will not end up being the "only" failed expansion.
Stay out of my brain, this sums up my feelings so well.
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kuide
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Cata was not fun and Mop looks like a re-skin.
The game industry needs Mop to fail badly,it's been holding back creative game design for far to long,the wow moddle has been copied over and over again.
All credit to Blizzard for what they have achived but its time mmo's moved on.
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Ferrydust
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But it wouldn't have to be time to move on if Blizzard hadn't broken the spell that was Wow. Then they forgot how to recast it.
I never thought I would see the day that I simply didn't care if I logged in or not. But more than that is the feeling that Blizzard has tried to ruin the game and continue to do things that make me angry.
I want Wow to be addictive again and I want to like Blizzard again.
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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I've kinda liked it from a raiding standpoint, but everything else is kinda just a shadow of better times.
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Spookysheep
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In the long run, the failure of cataclysm will be good for gamers, and the future epic failure of MOP will be GREAT for gamers.
With blizzard's fall, a new paradigm will have to emerge for MMO sales and finally companies will get off the copy/fail bandwagon.
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Ferrydust
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Spookysheep posted:
In the long run, the failure of cataclysm will be good for gamers, and the future epic failure of MOP will be GREAT for gamers.
With blizzard's fall, a new paradigm will have to emerge for MMO sales and finally companies will get off the copy/fail bandwagon.
Or only design for consoles.
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I, on the other hand, prefer a command-line system 'cause i'm so hardcore
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Zero_Washu
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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Sprawl-zero1eye- posted:
- Outdoor PvP completely ignored (yes I know it hasn't been popular for a while, but there was always a few of us out there that rolled with our flag up)
And of course, 5 years... so kinda tired of it all. MoP should be fun for a while, but probably not going to win me back as a diehard fan either.
What do you mean that Outdoor PvP is completely ignored? The NPCs do it all the time. They are trapped in their personal hell of always attacking the other side and no one can die. They just swing and swing and swing in repetition. Blizzard looks towards getting even more obnoxious with this in MoP with even more Animatronic PvP for all to watch... I mean, in Cata Ashenvale is under attack, yawn, like anyone cares. Same goes for all their fake and lame attempts at strife. Sorry Blizzard, you blew it in BC when you introduced a shared city (Shat) and went to extreme lame lengths to explain why we could not talk to each other, its not like Godcrawler came down and touched everyone's tongue
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Was Cata the first failed expansion? Yes it was. There is no arguing it. Every other expansion had progressive growth. Yet Cata has seen nothing but decline. That in and of itself is failure.
Sadly it's not going to be the last.
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I don't think anyone could successfully argue that Cataclysm hasn't been a failure.
But, it's definitely not the first expansion to have failed, in WoW yes, overall no.
I really don't see that they are doing anything with MoP to reverse the failure train either. 5 levels (bad choice), talent tree revision again (bad choice), no reversal on bad ideas from Cataclysm (too many to list - bad choice).
I'm sure that MoP will have enjoyable parts, but I don't think there will be enough of them to stop the current trend of subscriptions being canceled.
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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Vault_News posted:
Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
No, it hasn't failed.
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goldielocks2009
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It got me and a few others to leave. Now we are waiting on Star Wars. Not sure if it was actually Cata or just burned out on the game overall. I will prob come back sometime as I am itching to play something.
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Has it failed? Are you kidding me? The fact anyone can voice an opinion one way or the other to me says no, it hasn't failed. They made close to or over a quarter billion in box sales alone, give or take. And probably a billion in monthly subs since.
That isn't a failure. Did they lose subs? sure. Think they are worried? HAH
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Spookysheep
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If you are a fry cook at McDonalds I can see where you think that a loss of $15 million dollars a month does not worry a company, because, you will still get your $7 an hour.
But if you work in the actual business world, you know they are worried.
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G0d
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Spookysheep posted:
If you are a fry cook at McDonalds I can see where you think that a loss of $15 million dollars a month does not worry a company, because, you will still get your $7 an hour.
But if you work in the actual business world, you know they are worried.
Do you really think this is news to blizzard? Any company plans for potential loses. Especially, I'd like to think, in the world of online gaming. In this case tho, we are talking about a corporation that has made billions in box sales, and billions more in monthly subs, for 7 years, enough to finance multiple other games, all of which have been successful, with diablo 3 ready to sell another billion + in box sales. Coupled with the massive success of the previous release games. 7 years they've been making money off this game haha. Even if wow would have totally collapsed after 3 or 4 years, it would have been a massive success, financing all their other future projects.
I'm really not trying to argue, but I think it explains alot of the "b-team" mentality lately.... They can afford to fail. And even worse, they don't really care. Expecting any online game to make the same amount of money every single year, is foolish. It can't and won't happen. You can't keep a product new and fresh forever. Ask budweiser or miller/coors. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year to re-market an 80 year old product, that hasn't changed in...80 years.
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-Peo-
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G0d posted:
I'm really not trying to argue, but I think it explains alot of the "b-team" mentality lately.... They can afford to fail. And even worse, they don't really care.
You don't know what you are talking about, nobody who stays in business long, affords to fail, and doesn't care.
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I think the mentality regarding developement of WoW has gone from "let's make a quality product that many people will enjoy for a long time while making a great profit" to one more akin to "let's milk the cash cow for every last drop, screw long term feasibilty of the product and lets get our Next Big Thing out to market once things start to dry up".
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I need a new hobby . .
Ten level 85's (one of each class) in WoW
Back to try out the Feb patch in AC
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Fedup23
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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G0d posted:
You can't keep a product new and fresh forever. Ask budweiser or miller/coors. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year to re-market an 80 year old product, that hasn't changed in...80 years.
peoples tastes change..and just like Blizzard.. Budweiser and miller and MOST "American" beers have taken devastating sales losses over the last few years. People are tired of the same old thing. The only difference is that everyone here takes it personal and has to cry over it.. in the beer world people just move on and drink a different beer.
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Spookysheep
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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That analogy would not be so epic fail if there were thousands of MMO's like there are thousands of beers. 
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Pirates > Ninjas
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kuide
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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Wow took losses because it's crap.
If you look at the development of dibalo 3 you can see why warcraft is going so bad.They don't have the staff to make both games shine.
Diablo 3 looks really good, wow I would not touch even if they paid me. Wow has 2 end games Areanas and raids. areanas are broke becuase of class balance and raids are .... not popular.
Mop........why?
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Fedup23
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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Spookysheep posted:
That analogy would not be so epic fail if there were thousands of MMO's like there are thousands of beers.
I guess so.. 
But they were both at the top for years!!  yeah? .. no?.. bah.. nevermind. 
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Spookysheep
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Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?
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Fedup23 posted:
Spookysheep posted:
That analogy would not be so epic fail if there were thousands of MMO's like there are thousands of beers.
I guess so..
But they were both at the top for years!! yeah? .. no?.. bah.. nevermind.
But I can totally agree with you in that if they ever quit making Bacardi rum I would most certainly cry. A lot.
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