Author Topic: Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds?
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Subject: Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds?
Daxxarri posted:
(In response to: I don't think that's the point most (reasonable) people are trying to argue, though. Every single legendary churned out to date has come from 25 man raids. Some have 1, nearly 2; some have 2, nearly 3.)


That's another issue, though it has less to do with drop rates and more to do with how the quest can reasonably be completed. We came up with a "parallelization" concept where a player could be on phase 3 of making Dragonwrath, while another raider in the same group could be on phase 2. We thought that would feel better for the players involved, and it did, but more because they were getting their staves faster than for any other reason. The real problem with this idea is that it made it very difficult to balance the time investment it takes to create a staff. The first staff might take x amount of time to create, but then subsequent staves could potentially come out the door a lot faster.

Legendaries aren't very legendary if 20% of the raiding population is carrying them -- never mind the ripple effects that their presence can have on game balance in PvE and PvP. Ultimately, 'parallelization' made a too powerful item, too easy to get, too quickly. In short, it was a mistake that we regret, and one we won't be repeating in the future. It also left us with a situation that we needed to address, though, which is why we nerfed the quest item drop rates to begin with.

All of that is merely by way of explaining how we arrived at this point. The heart of the issue for many of you has been 10-player raid drop rates and I?d like to take a moment to thank those of you who provided clear, constructive feedback in these threads and elsewhere. It?s been really valuable during our deliberations and helped us arrive at a decision that we think will address our concerns and yours.

We?ve decided to revert the drop rate change for 10-player heroic Firelands completely. We?ll also be slightly buffing the drop rates in 10-player normal. In the end, we should get the following results:

? 25-player heroic has 44% lower drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.
? 25-player normal remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
? 10-player heroic remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
? 10-player normal has 33% higher drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.


We plan to hotfix the new rates into place as soon as possible, and we should see them in-place pre-raid this evening barring unforeseen complications.

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Talehon69 
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Subject: Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds?
This fixes nothing and 25man raids still will get 2-3x more Staves than a 10man raid. To date, I don't think any 10man raid has finished one, whereas I know of several 25mans with 3.

My raid has 4/7 Heroics cleared as a 10man and our Spriest getting the staff isn't even at the third stage yet. The 25man raid in our guild, is 1/7 Heroic and didn't kill Rag until 5 weeks in, will finish theirs next week.

How is this fair?

 

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Taloquin 
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Subject: Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds?
? 25-player heroic has 44% lower drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.
? 25-player normal remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
? 10-player heroic remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
? 10-player normal has 33% higher drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch

If the previously stated drop rate nerfs for 10 mans had stayed, then yes, it would have been impossible and unfair. But the new drop rates for 10 mans actually increases the rate that the quest drops are, well, dropped. So it will actually be easier for 10 man raids to get the quest drops than before. Unless of course I'm missing something, which could be the case since I've never done this raid, or any raid in Cata for that matter.

 

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Talehon69 
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Subject: Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds?
Taloquin posted:
? 25-player heroic has 44% lower drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.
? 25-player normal remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
? 10-player heroic remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
? 10-player normal has 33% higher drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch

If the previously stated drop rate nerfs for 10 mans had stayed, then yes, it would have been impossible and unfair. But the new drop rates for 10 mans actually increases the rate that the quest drops are, well, dropped. So it will actually be easier for 10 man raids to get the quest drops than before. Unless of course I'm missing something, which could be the case since I've never done this raid, or any raid in Cata for that matter.



For guilds on Normals in 10man, it brings it up a bit, but for people who have been killing them on heroic, it changes nothing, and even guilds with 7/7 Heroic, STILL, have not gotten the staff. 25mans killing only Normals have. THAT is where it's retarded.

 

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Shelendil 
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Subject: Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds?
If 10 and 25 man got staves at the same rate, there would be obvious balance issues. Three casters with Dragonwrath in a 10 man vs in a 25 man? At what point do you stop bringing melee dps because they do 4-5k dps less? How do you tune bosses for 100% of the casters having it in 10 man vs. 25% in 25 man? And of course, if they're not proportionally acquired, there is significant pressure to break your 25 man group into two teams of 10 for farming.

 

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Talehon69 
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Subject: Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds?
The problem is, right now, 25mans can have up to 3, 10mans still have zero. Most 10mans are still 1-3 months off getting their first.

 

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sarnsereg 
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Subject: Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds?
this is so stupid.... it's just showing that once again blizzard is catering to the super hard core uber elite raiders/guilds. let them get their staffs really quick and then NERF it and make the casual raiders not be able to get the item and have it be of ANY use at all to them.

 

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Shelendil 
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Subject: Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds?
25-mans can't have up to three right now, unless they already split into multiple groups to farm them. They are just now completing their second if they got lucky.

http://i.imgur.com/C8QGL.jpg

The above is what it used to look like before the nerf. Now the last step takes 5.5 weeks instead of 3 for 25-man.

 

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Talehon69 
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Subject: Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds?
So before the nerf, 25mans could have had 4 when a 10man got 1, and 6 at 2.

I can see why they nerfed it for 25man, but it's still atrocious for 10man.

 

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Zero_Washu 
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Subject: Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds?
LOL - so again the monty haul (I know, hall but haul works better here) itemization bites them in the butt again.

The bane of this game is itemization and the sheer lunacy of each tier over the previous one.

 

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Shelendil 
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Subject: Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds?
Talehon69 posted:
So before the nerf, 25mans could have had 4 when a 10man got 1, and 6 at 2.

I can see why they nerfed it for 25man, but it's still atrocious for 10man.


It should be atrocious; it's a legendary. Shadowmourne was orange, but it wasn't legendary.

 

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Dums 
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Subject: Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds?
It's not, now.

6/7 Heroic 10 man guilds are very close to the last step of the quest. It will take them 6 weeks to finish and grab the legendary.

6/7 Heroic 25 man guilds take 5 weeks from start of last leg of quest to finish. So they're about even there.

Pre-nerf/buff, it was pretty wildily unbalanced and in favor of 25 man guilds, yah. But they've evened it out some, and now it's not so bad.

 

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Talehon69 
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Subject: Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds?
Dums posted:
It's not, now.

6/7 Heroic 10 man guilds are very close to the last step of the quest. It will take them 6 weeks to finish and grab the legendary.

6/7 Heroic 25 man guilds take 5 weeks from start of last leg of quest to finish. So they're about even there.

Pre-nerf/buff, it was pretty wildily unbalanced and in favor of 25 man guilds, yah. But they've evened it out some, and now it's not so bad.



Problem is they did it a bit late. My raid is 5/7 Heroic 10man and our Staff guy got on the last step just before Majordomo, getting his first essences. It will take 6 weeks to finish it. The other raid in my guild is 1/7 and it took them 6 weeks into Firelands to kill Rag. They finished their staff this week.

 

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