Vault_News
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New Poll - The Decline
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Since the release of Cataclysm it's been big news that Blizzard has lost over 1 million subscribers. Some blame the difficulty of heroics and raids and gearing up. Some say the homogenization of classes is the cause. Others simply think the game is getting old and there's still more people who say it's all the fault of poor decisions from the Dev Team. What do you think? Vote now in our new poll!
You can view all the results of past polls here.
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The_Korrigan
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No offense, but the problem with your poll is that many answers are "dev team decisions"...
Not enough content => dev team decision
Content is too hard with too little reward => dev team decision
Railroad quest system is too boring => dev team decision
Talent tree changes => dev team decision
The classes all feel the same now => dev team decision
Old world changes => dev team decision
So basically, most of your options are all fitting into your option 1 
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Arunne
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Well they couldnt make a category called Ghostcrawler. They might have pissed someone off with specifics. 
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Nestor_II
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I just unsubbed my account today and don't know if I will ever be back, will tell my friend to sell all of the crafting stuff in the guild bank and make a ton of profit.
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Shenron_
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not enough new content compared to previous expansions...too much recycling
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Rill_of_WE
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The_Korrigan posted:
No offense, but the problem with your poll is that many answers are "dev team decisions"...
Not enough content => dev team decision
Content is too hard with too little reward => dev team decision
Railroad quest system is too boring => dev team decision
Talent tree changes => dev team decision
The classes all feel the same now => dev team decision
Old world changes => dev team decision
So basically, most of your options are all fitting into your option 1
Many people just blame the developers in general. Some people don't blame the development team's decisions as a whole but think that it's more some specific decisions. That's why the options are there. If anything there's redundancy in the "All of the Above" option.
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Auenwing
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(Add in poorer quality artwork in the Cat zones to [X] All of the Above.)
I don't blame Ghost Crawler.
I blame his management.
And what appears to be Blizzard's unrelenting pervasive arrogant refusal to understand their customers' experience.
Ghost Crawler just happens to portray his company's culture extremely well...
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Arunne
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Well having an expansion in WOTLK that was widely loved by the largest player spectrum of players and totally doing a 180 on the design will cause anything to decline.
I think the prime example is that WOTLK made a person like me into a raider. I have zero patience or desire to spend my time raiding, yet I raided thru all of the raids in wrath.
Yet when Cat came out, I made it thru 2 or 3 heroic dungeons and pretty much quit playing. That of course is after they gutted the class i played and turned him into a holy rogue.
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Ferrydust
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I voted 'All of the Above'.
They did too many changes that the player base didn't like... and then did more! And still more! Still not done yet!
When you don't like 1 or 2 things... you might overlook them for a while. But when you start to hate everything they are doing it's just too much to ask of the player base.
I can't even organize my top gripes because there are too many of them!
Talent tree revamp and being forced down a tree is not fun. A point or a skill every level (if you are lucky) not fun. You might go 4+ levels without learning a new skill.
Changing the way every class plays is not fun. (I have them all) Honestly, I enjoyed playing all my classes in Wrath. Now they are a pain.
Leaving game breaking bugs in BGs for MONTHS. MANY months. This also includes the broken queue system and not being able to see all your teammates on the map.
Not taking a more proactive approach to banning BG bots. Now people talk freely about how they bot. It ruined the integrity of the game.
Adding in a flight path every 10 feet... and yet through ALL my characters (2 accounts worth at 85) there has only been 1 instance where I needed to use 1.
I could go on and on but I won't :P
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Voqar
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I don't blame the developers. I don't even blame GC even though I think he's a terrible designer. I blame Blizzard management because they're the ones who put these people in charge fo the cash cow and who continue to let these stooges run the cash cow into the ground.
The_Korrigan posted:
Not enough content => dev team decision
Content is too hard with too little reward => dev team decision
Railroad quest system is too boring => dev team decision
Talent tree changes => dev team decision
The classes all feel the same now => dev team decision
Old world changes => dev team decision
Most of all of the above, but...
I never thought the 5-man instances were too hard - I want challenges, but what they are is too long with way too much repetitive and boring trash. Less trash, keep the interesting bosses, let the morons who can't login without mommy holding their hand do without.
I think the content is plenty rewarding. The problem with cata content in general is that it is a verbatim repeat of WOTLK with nothing fresh. Same quest style, same rep grind style, same regular to heroic instance transition, ultra fast leveling, and grind grind grind til you raid. They needed to add some new twists rather than copying more of the same. The problem is/was compounded by them doing emblem revamps during WOTLK such that everybody grinded the same handful of instances to dust 3 times over...then they come out with the same exact system in Cata, then they pull the rug out...again...and revamp emblems again in cata. It's utter BS. For as much cash as bliz is absorbing thru subs and box sales (expacs with new game prices) they do a pitiful job with providing content.
They did slaughter casual raiding by making 10 man normal too hard. No clue why 25 man raiding would be easier than 10 man by design such that serious progression guilds do 25 over 10 since it's easier. Genius design. The come up with the 10 man standard and normal vs heroic modes then make normal 10 man so hard in cata that the REAL cataclysm was guilds falling apart all over the place, tons of player migration as deluded people who could raid in WOTLK sought someone to carry them thru cata raids.
There will always be a few elite guilds that can conquer whatever is thrown at them, but the majority of players are not in, and will never be in, guilds like that, because only a few people can play the game like it's a job (serious progression guilds raid more days per week than people work and have stricter attendance policies than most employers too  - so, instead of shifting raiding to only match the few elitists, they should've left it where it was at the end of WOTLK, in a place where more people were raiding than ever before, and where everyone from casual to hardcore could raid at varying levels of progress and get something done. If the ultra hardcores eat it up in a day or two and have nothing to do, too bad, they are the extreme minority and designing for the extreme minority is failure.
Gutting so much of the core game was a truly horrific decision. You don't redesign core systems in a runaway success of a game, you redesign in failboat games scrambling to hang on to their few thousand subs. This was one of the dumbest moves in gaming history.
I'm done with WoW right now. On top of cata sucking in general the firelands patch sealed the deal. Add a horrific rep grind that makes all previous rep grinds seem tame and that is as alt unfriendly as anything could possibly be. Add a raid with such volumous trash that it's mind numbingly boring quick (I love the add that says pug friendly raids in FL...yeah...if you wanna to trash runs). I also really hate the whole BOE bonanza trash spectaculars they keep doing. Cut all the BS trash. Earn your loot thru boss kills. Seeing utter scrubs who can't even solo effectively winning and selling boe's after getting carried thru trash runs where they contribute nothing makes me wanna punch a kitten.
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Ferrydust
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Voqar posted:
Gutting so much of the core game was a truly horrific decision. You don't redesign core systems in a runaway success of a game, you redesign in failboat games scrambling to hang on to their few thousand subs. This was one of the dumbest moves in gaming history.
well said.
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I, on the other hand, prefer a command-line system 'cause i'm so hardcore
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Rill_of_WE
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Ferrydust posted:
Voqar posted:
Gutting so much of the core game was a truly horrific decision. You don't redesign core systems in a runaway success of a game, you redesign in failboat games scrambling to hang on to their few thousand subs. This was one of the dumbest moves in gaming history.
well said.
Agreed
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Auenwing
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Rill_of_WE posted:
Ferrydust posted:
Voqar posted:
Gutting so much of the core game was a truly horrific decision. You don't redesign core systems in a runaway success of a game, you redesign in failboat games scrambling to hang on to their few thousand subs. This was one of the dumbest moves in gaming history.
well said.
Agreed
Triple that.
If they had just repackaged it and called it WoW2 and left the original WoW going, then collected demographics on player segments of each, at least it would have been a market-driven business decision. Changing the game to attract new customers while not understanding the negative impact on their current customer base.... it appears to be half-or-poorly thought out, or perhaps a decision based on someone's personal agenda (not a sustainable successful management style in today's market, Steve Jobs notwithstanding), or arrogant at the least (our customers will stick with us no matter what we do, they always have, we know best.)
In the end, all supposition aside, I'm still not sure whether this is intentional incompetence, or not.
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Rill_of_WE posted:
Ferrydust posted:
Voqar posted:
Gutting so much of the core game was a truly horrific decision. You don't redesign core systems in a runaway success of a game, you redesign in failboat games scrambling to hang on to their few thousand subs. This was one of the dumbest moves in gaming history.
well said.
Agreed
Agreed again. I don't think Blizz as a whole understands that WoW is an entertainment experience, and needs to be managed as such.
Cat was as if I went back to Disneyland for the umpteenth time, and found the castle entrance torn down and replaced with something else. or went to see Star Trek 8 in a movie theater and found cowboys and pistols instead of spaceships and phasers. Or a star wars movie with phasers instead of light sabers. It just violates the basic assumptions, turns the world into something different. Left me with no reason to stay.
Comment I've made many times since WoW launched: there is a basic, basic marketing skill of understanding who your customers are and segmenting them appropriately, and then testing your design decisions (including proposed changes) against each segment to see who it's going to alienate and who will love it. Then you make a business decision. Blizz made a business decision to trust the intuition of a committee who knew they'd committed to a risky path, without doing the business basic.
I've worked for a Fortune 50 company for over 30 years. I have seen executives make mistakes of this magnitude. Sometimes it takes a while to understand that it was really a mistake and not a risk gone awry, but in every single case that executive was gone inside of 5 years. The old school management had a philosophy of firing not just the guy who it looked like made the blunder, but also the next two levels of management to be sure the real culprit was gone.
Which brings me to the last point. GC needs to go. But it smells like Cat didn't come from his imagination, but rather from a set of directives from above he was too weak (or too ignorant) to resist. Just replacing GC isn't good enough. Blizz's board of directors needs to clean house.
BTW the person who ghost wrote GC's latest blog post actually understands what needs to be done, maybe they should be put in a position of more power.
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Spookysheep
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Ferrydust posted:
Voqar posted:
Gutting so much of the core game was a truly horrific decision. You don't redesign core systems in a runaway success of a game, you redesign in failboat games scrambling to hang on to their few thousand subs. This was one of the dumbest moves in gaming history.
well said.
THIS
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Sprawl-zero1eye-
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Ferrydust posted:
Voqar posted:
Gutting so much of the core game was a truly horrific decision. You don't redesign core systems in a runaway success of a game, you redesign in failboat games scrambling to hang on to their few thousand subs. This was one of the dumbest moves in gaming history.
well said.
Indeed.
They messed with a portion of the game that I found very very fun, which was fine tuning and tweaking my talent trees. Anyone who graced the Rogue forums knows I loved building trees, testing builds, and giving advice on those builds. Taking that away from me took away some of the fun for me. This is why I started playing Rift as well.
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Groooovechampion
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I could ramble beyond what Gaddafi did at the UN some long time ago about reasons for decline, but in the end, who gives a damn ^^.
I'll just toss in the crap with Blizzard executives' "We think the players should blabla".
They kept forcing perspectives onto the players, most of the time with unreasonable changes.
I lost count on how many diverse class specs and stuff like that were guted and "dumbed down" - and I dare say Blizzard even invented that crap.
And then there was the trillions of class revamps that frequently (fail)cascaded into another revamp of the revamping revamped revamp. Then we hear the stupid scissors rock paper theory and how great it will be, when nobody there really knows who of classes are rock, paper or scissors.
Then then were brainiac moments in the design.
(mage rant here)
We have moments where Blizzard said such similar to, "No more extreme stunlock or CC moments" - actually that somewhere began to work out in BC, lost track on WotlK and when Cata hit, all fail.
You (blizz) can't say something like stuns/CC adjusted ever since -- yeah, you got that done on rogues years before (plus almost each patch having a nerf for rogues  ) Mages for instance suddenly had a 5sec stun, that struck like a truck in dmg around Cata.
Then of course, frost armor which procs even on paladin's ranged judgements.
Those are actually harmless examples, but I spoken too much already  .
It's really best to move on.
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Ugh_Lancelot
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The_Korrigan posted:
No offense, but the problem with your poll is that many answers are "dev team decisions"...
Not enough content => dev team decision
Content is too hard with too little reward => dev team decision
Railroad quest system is too boring => dev team decision
Talent tree changes => dev team decision
The classes all feel the same now => dev team decision
Old world changes => dev team decision
So basically, most of your options are all fitting into your option 1
I suspect that while "dev team" seems like the thing to say, the problem is really the gap between the WoW team and players. There needs to be a team that is independent and equal to the dev team in terms of influence on decision-making. This team should be working hard to identify trends and likes/dislikes/what works/what doesn't work/etc. and boldly presenting that data for every new feature/redesign/etc. that the dev team or others want to do. Without that feedback mechanism, decisions tend to get fubar like 4.0/Cataclysm.
No, the CMs are not this team. I'm talking professional analysts, not glorified forum mods.
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The_Korrigan
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Voqar posted:
I never thought the 5-man instances were too hard - I want challenges, but what they are is too long with way too much repetitive and boring trash. Less trash, keep the interesting bosses, let the morons who can't login without mommy holding their hand do without.
I agree here. And the "problem" is not specific to 5 man dungeons. We used to call Bastion of Twilight "Bastion of Trash". The difficulty of 5 man is just fine (and in fine not harder than WotLK ones now that everybody is geared up). But there's too much trash slowing down progression and making the dungeons too long.
Voqar posted:
Gutting so much of the core game was a truly horrific decision. You don't redesign core systems in a runaway success of a game, you redesign in failboat games scrambling to hang on to their few thousand subs. This was one of the dumbest moves in gaming history.
What I won't forgive Ghostcrawler is the complete dumbing down of talent trees. My guess on what happened, and I'm 99% sure that I'm right, is that they simplified the talent trees because they first planned to add the "Path of the Titans". But when they finally canceled the Path, they sadly kept the dumbed down talent trees, possibly so they don't lose the "work" already done.
I'm not an anti GC. I'm not forgetting that he was in charge for WotLK, what even most of the haters here consider the best WoW expansion. But the dumbing down of the classes, which not only strongly reduced player freedom and choice, but also often drastically changed the way the class plays, that I don't forgive. Let's take the Death Knight for instance... I was lucky that they choose the blood tree for tanking, and that the play style didn't change much. That's what kept me playing. But I perfectly understand the people who enjoyed e.g. frost tanking or even unholy tanking and got that option removed. I understand they are pissed. And rightfully so. And that's just the DK, same could be said for almost every class I guess (feral druid didn't change much apparently, well, still enjoyable).
In other words: Most silly move ever. If it's not broken, don't fix it.
When they ditched Path of Titans (which is sad because it was a feature many were waiting for), they should have reverted talents to WotLK.
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Zero_Washu
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I chose the development team as the problem.
They forgot why people play WOW. They also lied about why they made their changes. Granted it is my view only, but the mechanics change behind health pools and healing were all done to fix Arena play. Even the recent changes to allow tanks to concentrate on stats other than threat related points to more allowing them to itemize tank armor more specifically for arena. Of course Arena play has also morphed into Rate BGs which I figure will be their next e-game.
The majority play the game to have fun. While they want a challenge they don't want a challenge akin to what is found in raids. Raiders are not a majority. They want a challenge and restricting that challenge to raids would have been more than sufficient. Yet the development team decided to make the game "challenging" but they could only find one role to do it with, healers.
The change to healers was simply the largest nerf ever to occur in WOW. From the time a player levels to 85 from 80 their cost to heal ratio worsened four fold. Then the developers decided to load their five man instances with gratuitous group damage. The lie was covered with the idea that tanks would no longer be clobbered by spiky are a succession of large hits but that never really held true.
When gear started to surmount their healing nerf they again laid into healers. Gear has always been the bane of the designers. I swear the people who create the gear rewards don't talk to the people who are behind the mechanics. They monty hall their game to death.
Oh well, they drove off a lot of good players, specifically those that healed. They took away their ability to feel heroic and who wants to play a npc
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steveC91
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and the winner is ! "All of the above"
The lack of end game for non elite players killed it for me.
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steveC91 posted:
The lack of end game for non elite players killed it for me.
This for me too. I added to the unsub numbers this week. It was funny to see that Blizzard's questionnaire when you unsub does not distinguish between doing dungeons and raids (e.g. quitting because "done all dungeons and raids", "don't want to do dungeons and raids"). I can't raid because of RL - but I probably played more hours than most raiders and I've done HCs (including ZA/ZG) to death.
Do Molten Front? I'd rather stab myself in the eyes. I got halfway through on one toon before giving up. The reward for grinding through this for me (tailoring disc priest) was going to be a recipe for a gem bag IIRC. No cloth spirit gear available in Firelands/MF.
Crafting? After 525, progress requires raid drop recipes or raid drop materials for my main toon.
Alts? Taken 7 to 85 (not sure how I managed it tbh) - mostly for crafting - but see above. Molten Front for 7 alts - *boggle*.
PvP? Done loads, approaching 100k HKs. Bored with most BGs now and can't do RBGs as teams seem to have same commitment reqs as for raiding.
Blizzard often say "what's the point of adding gear upgrades for non-raiders" (as they leave raid reqs on old tier gear ...). I say beacuse:
- it gives me a sense that I am improving my character, not just wasting my time
- it means I can play (healer) with friends who are not uber or who are on bad/shared connections with a better chance of it not turning into a wipe fest because my friends see/react to floor damage one second later than everyone else.
- if I pull some "green" or even bad players though an HC because I am overgeared it actually gives me a sense of achievement. Call it sad if you like, but it kept me doing HCs in WotLK (and paying the sub).
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New Poll - The Decline
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The talent tree enforcements ruined it for me.
Which is why I am playing Rift now, it has the old wow style talents on steroids. The rest is pretty much a wow rip off except for the invasions. They are extremely proactive in pushing out hotfixes for problems also.
But I am about done with it, maybe GW2 (never liked the old ones though)
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Long_Ranger
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Subject:
New Poll - The Decline
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Blizzard built their ivory tower so high, they lost touch with their audience. Then they sat there making stupid, arrogant decisions and listened only to the feedback of their sycophants, and ignored the vast, silent majority of their fan base who had supported them for years.
Then when they finally decided to come down from that tower, they were surprised to find a lot of people hadn't stuck around.
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aon_mixed
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New Poll - The Decline
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i stopped paying 3 months ago due to the redundancy of the game
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Talehon69
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New Poll - The Decline
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I login to raid 2 days a week, and I only have the game subscribed because I have the game free to October, 2034. If I was paying for it? I probably wouldn't be.
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Spookysheep
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I keep reading the really stupid statement that "Ghostcrawler was in charge during WOTLK".
GC was on a very tight leash during WOTLK, and he was very obviously over-ridden in MANY things that he wanted to do to the game. We constantly read his stupid posts about "what blizzard will not do", then blizzard would almost immediately turn around and do it, over riding him.
GC was "in charge" by title only. For cata, some retard took the leash off and actually gave him the power to destroy the game the way he WOULD HAVE back in WOTLK had he not been on the leash.
Only the blind or stupid would not grasp this.
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Sociop
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Considering some 1.5 million people have signed up to beta test "The Old Republic" already and anylysts predict at least 3 million in sales the first year it has to have Blizzard worried.
I sure would expect some major internal changes very soon, not in just philosophy or direction either but employment status.
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Roddry
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nm
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Taloquin
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The_Korrigan posted:
When they ditched Path of Titans (which is sad because it was a feature many were waiting for), they should have reverted talents to WotLK.
Ok, this is probably the only post Korrigan makes that I will agree with, and I'm dumbfounded that I'm agreeing with it all.
But the simple fact is, he's probably right.
The whole idea of dumbing down talent trees to account for diversification in the Path of Titans makes total sense. Why else would Blizz pull a SWG NGE move on the talent trees other than to make up for it with Path of Titans, which was then scrapped?
And I can't help but think that the removal of Path of Titans also affected not just the talent trees, but the entire game, and is the reason the game was harder than it should have been for so long. Without the Path of Titans advancements, tanks took too much damage, healers ran out of mana, and dps were scratching their heads wondering why they couldn't beat the tank. So over the past 10 months Blizzard has been trying to adjust to account for that instead of actually doing what they should have done in the first place, which was put the Path of Titans back in.
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Rill_of_WE
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Taloquin posted:
The_Korrigan posted:
When they ditched Path of Titans (which is sad because it was a feature many were waiting for), they should have reverted talents to WotLK.
Ok, this is probably the only post Korrigan makes that I will agree with, and I'm dumbfounded that I'm agreeing with it all.
But the simple fact is, he's probably right.
The whole idea of dumbing down talent trees to account for diversification in the Path of Titans makes total sense. Why else would Blizz pull a SWG NGE move on the talent trees other than to make up for it with Path of Titans, which was then scrapped?
And I can't help but think that the removal of Path of Titans also affected not just the talent trees, but the entire game, and is the reason the game was harder than it should have been for so long. Without the Path of Titans advancements, tanks took too much damage, healers ran out of mana, and dps were scratching their heads wondering why they couldn't beat the tank. So over the past 10 months Blizzard has been trying to adjust to account for that instead of actually doing what they should have done in the first place, which was put the Path of Titans back in.
Good point.
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Spookysheep
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I think the path of the titans theory is probably right on the money.
But at this point, just think about how badly the B team would screw the game up even more if they tried to go back and now add in the further complication of path of titans. o.o
I'm really not sure that it can be fixed by the current team of amateurs, and another overhaul to the game will just piss off the players who have adjusted and actually do like the way things are now.
Blizzard has dug a deep hole for themselves.
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Thodoll
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I never thought I'd say this, but I miss Jeff Kaplan. I wonder how much he's loving this.
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Spookysheep
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Thodoll posted:
I never thought I'd say this, but I miss Jeff Kaplan. I wonder how much he's loving this.
Kaplan would only make it worse. Whoever was actually pulling the strings in WOTLK needs to get a huge raise and full control of the next xpac.
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kyrv13
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Next expansion is going to be very interesting!
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Groooovechampion
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kyrv13 posted:
Next expansion is going to be very interesting!
Depends from which point of view.
It will be interesting for all of us as we want to see what the future will bring.
I have my doubts. Again, the only thing that would actually make Blizzard do anything for WoW is to have bad-ass competition like GW2/SWTOR (with greater bets on GW2).
However, somewhere I also have the feeling that WoW is becoming some retiring-deadweight for stuff like D3 or that "Titan" codenamed MMORPG.
Especially D3 is bringing some new "business models" regarding the auction house.
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Crafty_ac2
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Arunne posted:
Well having an expansion in WOTLK that was widely loved by the largest player spectrum of players and totally doing a 180 on the design will cause anything to decline.
I think the prime example is that WOTLK made a person like me into a raider. I have zero patience or desire to spend my time raiding, yet I raided thru all of the raids in wrath.
Yet when Cat came out, I made it thru 2 or 3 heroic dungeons and pretty much quit playing. That of course is after they gutted the class i played and turned him into a holy rogue.
Best answer yet. This sums up the feelings of my entire guild that quit.
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