JaconKin posted:

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Which is what made the Wrath Model so successful. Even if a player wasn't raiding, they could work towards a raid set, not to mention working on gearing out alts.

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JaconKin posted:

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Which is what made the Wrath Model so successful. Even if a player wasn't raiding, they could work towards a raid set, not to mention working on gearing out alts.

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-Mithan- posted:

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I've said it a few times when all the retards were crying about how "easy" WotLK was:
People don't want super hard games.

Done.

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tantallous posted:

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My only issue with the way wrath made things easy is that there were so many awful players that thought they were awesome because they could go on a raid. But even that could be dealt with alright, mute buttons are there for a reason. It became a much bigger issue with cata though, because they had the wrath attitude, and in cata, their complete fail was not going to work for raids. ended up wasting so much time because people who were not remotely prepared went on raids

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Spookysheep posted:

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What I really do not understand is how a company starts losing tons of money and does not take steps to turn the situation around.

In WOTLK subscriptions went up, up, and up. So the few people complaining that the game was "too easy", or whatever, may have been complaining, but they obviously were not canceling their subs.

Now we see the reverse. Blizzard catered to the extreme minority of their player base and are losing, on average, 300,000 subscriptions PER QUARTER.

When did businesses stop cutting the heads of non-producing executives?


WOTLK was extremely successful mainly by letting non-raiders get the previous season raid sets by collecting points from 5 mans, while the raiders still got the latest and best by doing what they liked to do as well. It worked for everyone.

WTF made blizzard think it was a good idea to change that?

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JaconKin posted:

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By the time that happens I will be playing the genre changing and superior Guild Wars 2 that won't have a subscription fee.

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Fedup23 posted:

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JaconKin posted:

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By the time that happens I will be playing the genre changing and superior Guild Wars 2 that won't have a subscription fee.

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I dont know about you (well, your statement pretty much gives you away).. but I have counted too many chickens before they have hatched.

I have been excited for too many games that promised to "change the game".

One humiliating kick in the crotch (thank you Sting) too many for me.

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Random_Blizztard posted:

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"Hey, I hear on the message boards that WotLK was easy if you don't stand in the fire, and WotLK was successful, so in Cata let's remember people must love not standing in the fire so let's add lots of fire all over the place so people have even MORE fun not standing in the fire. BRILLIANT!"

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JaconKin posted:

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As have I, yet, when all one has to do is watch videos of the game and realize that there is something special occurring with Guild Wars 2. You see a slick combat system, a quality of production that some games wish they had at release, and a complete overhaul to every mechanic that has become standard in MMOs since Everquest.

I was almost suckered in by WAR, thankfully I was able to avoid it due to a preorder of the CE that got me into the final stages of the BETA. Guild Wars 2 isn't even in BETA and looks better than most games in that stage. Watching videos of the games will tell you this much, once you begin investigating the game further and the passion that Arena Net has for the project and the goals they have for the game. They have stated that they aren't aiming for second best, the proof can be clearly seen.

I expect nothing less from the two remaining finding members of Arena Net who were basically responsible for making Blizzard a household name.

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Blisteringballs posted:

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Wrath model = good game, grew their base by millions.

Neck beard Cat model = unfun game and they've lost nearly a million.

Eventually Blizzard will wake up. They have to.

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myxomatosis8 posted:

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Has anyone at all stopped to think that this is a 7-year-old game, and that it has reached a point of a significant turnover? Teens who started in vanilla and hung on, other people moving on to bigger, better, just different things?

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myxomatosis8 posted:

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Has anyone at all stopped to think that this is a 7-year-old game, and that it has reached a point of a significant turnover? Teens who started in vanilla and hung on, other people moving on to bigger, better, just different things?

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myxomatosis8 posted:

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Has anyone at all stopped to think that this is a 7-year-old game, and that it has reached a point of a significant turnover? Teens who started in vanilla and hung on, other people moving on to bigger, better, just different things?

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Spookysheep posted:

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myxomatosis8 posted:

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Has anyone at all stopped to think that this is a 7-year-old game, and that it has reached a point of a significant turnover? Teens who started in vanilla and hung on, other people moving on to bigger, better, just different things?

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You mean aside from the fact that this "old" game continually and exponentially grew every single year for its first 6 years, then had a cataclysmic, sudden drop of nearly 1 million at the beginning of its 7th year?


Wait, let me guess, you and the local fanbois think that 6 is the magic number for player retention, amirite?

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myxomatosis8 posted:

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Has anyone at all stopped to think that this is a 7-year-old game, and that it has reached a point of a significant turnover? Teens who started in vanilla and hung on, other people moving on to bigger, better, just different things?

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The_Korrigan posted:

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JaconKin posted:

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As have I, yet, when all one has to do is watch videos of the game and realize that there is something special occurring with Guild Wars 2. You see a slick combat system, a quality of production that some games wish they had at release, and a complete overhaul to every mechanic that has become standard in MMOs since Everquest.

I was almost suckered in by WAR, thankfully I was able to avoid it due to a preorder of the CE that got me into the final stages of the BETA. Guild Wars 2 isn't even in BETA and looks better than most games in that stage. Watching videos of the games will tell you this much, once you begin investigating the game further and the passion that Arena Net has for the project and the goals they have for the game. They have stated that they aren't aiming for second best, the proof can be clearly seen.

I expect nothing less from the two remaining finding members of Arena Net who were basically responsible for making Blizzard a household name.

---

Not to be harsh, and no offense meant, but this is quite naive coming from a MMO veteran.

Truth is we won't know if GW2 is good or not before we played it ourself. Making cool looking videos is easy for such a company, it doesn't mean the gameplay will be as cool. I, as a veteran, learned NOT to trust videos. I only trust my own eyes, my own hands on the keyboard and mouse. Then, yes, I will tell if a game is good or not. I think of those videos like a movie trailer. Yes, they make me want to try this game. But like all movie trailers, they could be just the few good parts of a total turd.

Same goes for SW:TOR. It's not a secret that I'm waiting for that game, but I haven't pre-ordered yet. I want to see it first hand before I do that.

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GutterSludge posted:

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I could keep going on and on. Blizzard wants EVERYONE to be in a guild, devote 3 to 4 nights a week RAIDING, and love every damned minute of it....

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Spookysheep posted:

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It is the same argument since vanilla WoW. Most players do not like raiding but the 5 mans are universally popular. Blizzard has made it where you can only partially accomplish a new gear milestone in 5 mans, but to get helm and shoulders, they tried to force players to raid.

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JaconKin posted:

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<big post removed to reduce size, see above>

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GutterSludge posted:

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The only problem with this is that many many players refuse to do at least one of the 3 above.

Either they hate the "guild-for-gear" mentality..
or they refuse to schedule "fun"...
or could give a rats ass about the latest raid...

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The_Korrigan posted:

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JaconKin posted:

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<big post removed to reduce size, see above>

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Man, I've seen that kind of speech so many times it's not even remotely funny anymore. I've notably seen it for Age of Conan. New combat system, fantastic, innovative, etc... and great videos to support it, among which many made by beta "fanbois". We both know the result: a mediocre game with piss poor programming at release. Rift also got some great videos with rift bosses before release... result is a pathetic game struggling to survive.

Come on, you're too much a MMO vet to be hyped that way.

And no one more than me wishes to be proved wrong, since GW2 is indeed the most promising "near future" game, but I won't get hyped again on a game to be released in months and which I didn't try myself. I won't pre-order or buy anything before I played it myself and got sucked in, just like I got sucked into WoW in 2004 during beta.

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The-Sofa-King posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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I could keep going on and on. Blizzard wants EVERYONE to be in a guild, devote 3 to 4 nights a week RAIDING, and love every damned minute of it....

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I raid 1 night a week with a guild that isn't even my own. We've cleared 5/7 in Firelands at the moment. Sure, it's been cleared before, by people raiding more than 1 night a week, but you can devote a single night a week to raiding and still be successful in the current raiding system.

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The-Sofa-King posted:

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I raid 1 night a week with a guild that isn't even my own. We've cleared 5/7 in Firelands at the moment. Sure, it's been cleared before, by people raiding more than 1 night a week, but you can devote a single night a week to raiding and still be successful in the current raiding system.

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JaconKin posted:

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A simple search of youtube and you'll see plenty of videos of just normal gamers playing the game, no Dev BS involved.

Here goes a player Video of the Shatterer Boss Event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUVLclPDCBE&feature=player_embedded#at=14

Dev Video showing of the same thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P73V9n7jUY&feature=player_embedded

Here goes a Bioware Video of the first "flashpoint"/dungeon of the game. Spoilers of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT7lW7KAfHU

Video of Theif Gunplay from GW2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv6mCOo2k5k&feature=related

Out of those videos for the two games, which one looks more epic and exciting, and which one looks like its more ready to release?

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Spookysheep posted:

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The-Sofa-King posted:

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I raid 1 night a week with a guild that isn't even my own. We've cleared 5/7 in Firelands at the moment. Sure, it's been cleared before, by people raiding more than 1 night a week, but you can devote a single night a week to raiding and still be successful in the current raiding system.

---

But you do realize that by your own statement, you are being completely carried by someone else's guild, who did all the work before you got there, and therefore your experience in no way even remotely mimics about, oh, 99% of WoW players, right?

In the scenario you just described, you are not successful in the current raiding system, another guild is successful and they are handing you a free raid slot and free welfare epics

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Spookysheep posted:

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The-Sofa-King posted:

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I raid 1 night a week with a guild that isn't even my own. We've cleared 5/7 in Firelands at the moment. Sure, it's been cleared before, by people raiding more than 1 night a week, but you can devote a single night a week to raiding and still be successful in the current raiding system.

---

But you do realize that by your own statement, you are being completely carried by someone else's guild, who did all the work before you got there, and therefore your experience in no way even remotely mimics about, oh, 99% of WoW players, right?

In the scenario you just described, you are not successful in the current raiding system, another guild is successful and they are handing you a free raid slot and free welfare epics

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Fedup23 posted:

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Sorry.. the Dragon fight looks just like anything out of any other raid boss fight in WoW or Rift.. long drawn out snooze fest. The Worgen Mage (yes, I said it) basically wandered around the boss and used the same 2 spells over and over (I know he used a couple of other skills..but really 95% were the same 2). Screams WOW mage to me.

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fedup posted:

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[quote]They added a [tos_quoted violation]-ton of pretty lights and cool sound effects (which will get as stale as 3 week old Mag'har Grainbread after a while).

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fedup posted:

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[quote]The thief "gunplay" video was evidence actually supporting the fact that this game looks like the same ole same ole to me. Shoot and walk backwards until your target dies.. wow.. riveting innovation!

Im sorry if you watched it and got something more out of it. I know that its just a couple of videos from a much larger game experience.. but I hope these videos werent pulled as evidence of the huge steps forward coming to the genre. They actually left me very disheartened.

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Interview posted:

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[quote]NecroBator: Speaking of combat roles, let’s talk about one of my new favorite subjects: necro tanking. What kind of build would you use to fulfill that role in combat as a necro?

Colin: So the real front lines guy, in my mind, is Axe and Warhorn. This is the true melee, holding down the front as a necromancer. You can do it with just about any of the weapon sets to be honest, but you get up there and get your bone minions rolling and your flesh wurm helping to hold the front line.

Then you’ve got your Wail of Doom and this just bleeds, dazes, poisons and weakens everybody around you. And then you’ve got Locust Swarm, and everybody around you, you’re stealing life from them also. Then you’ve got Unholy Feast that cripples and damages everybody around you.

So you run in and you pop your Unholy Feast and everybody is crippled and they’re not getting away from you, and then you can use the other two skills and just start draining life like crazy on everyone around you, and your minions are right in there tearing them apart.

All of the sudden you’re right up there on the front line. Then you go into Death Shroud and do Life Transfer and start stealing life from everybody around you again.

So it makes you a brutal front line character. Warhorn as the off-hand is kind of the key to that, and the axe is a great main hand weapon. You can kind of do it with anything, but the axe is nice because you’ve got Unholy Feast on skill 3, so you’ve got another point-blank AoE skill available to you.

And that’s just one of those situations where this class just plays completely differently with some different weapon sets. Even when it’s up close doing something it feels like a necromancer regardless because of all the life stealing and the pets you’ve got up there and everything.

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JaconKin posted:

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I'm a video game Vet of 28 years

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JaconKin posted:

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As far as a MMO Vet, figuring I have only played 2 games, and part of a third, I'm not sure if that is a proper terminology.

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JaconKin posted:

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[quote=Fedup23]
Here goes a Trait Screen for the Engineer Class:


Very similar to Glyphs, but very very different as well, I would put it more akin to the actual Path of Titans that got scrapped from Cata.

You actually determine how you build your character how you see fit, by weapon types, by your attribute point distribution, and by what traits you decide to equip. Everything once more, is about options and how you want to play, not being forced fed down a 31 point talent tree, or any talent tree for that matter.

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GutterSludge posted:

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Quasi,

Opinions do not require facts, which is why they are opinions.

Jacon's opinion is that the game looks stellar.

Korrigan's is that he will reserve judgement until he can play the game.



Neither of these require "facts" to be legitimate.

Yes, Jacon has provided examples of why he holds the opinion he does, but it is still just an opinion, and no more (or less) valid than Korrigan's.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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I wondered when one of the kids would interfere in our adult discussion with a pointless and rude message - didn't have to wait long.

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Sociop posted:

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JaconKin posted:

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[quote=Fedup23]
Here goes a Trait Screen for the Engineer Class:


Very similar to Glyphs, but very very different as well, I would put it more akin to the actual Path of Titans that got scrapped from Cata.

You actually determine how you build your character how you see fit, by weapon types, by your attribute point distribution, and by what traits you decide to equip. Everything once more, is about options and how you want to play, not being forced fed down a 31 point talent tree, or any talent tree for that matter.

---

Back in Vanilla WoW the options were a lot more akin to that, you decided what weapons you wanted to train with, were not forced to have 31 point in one tree before putting them in another thus had lot of choices in making your own hybrid builds etc...

Then Ghostcrawler took over and the whole development philosophy changed, instead of what is best for the player and the game it became what is easiest for the developer and all those choices and options started going away in order for it to be easier for the developer to balance the game.

The real kicker is it was a lot more balanced then than it has ever been since!

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GutterSludge posted:

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Quasi,

Opinions do not require facts, which is why they are opinions.

Jacon's opinion is that the game looks stellar.

Korrigan's is that he will reserve judgement until he can play the game.

Neither of these require "facts" to be legitimate.

Yes, Jacon has provided examples of why he holds the opinion he does, but it is still just an opinion, and no more (or less) valid than Korrigan's.

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Quazimortal posted:

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I'm not talking about Jacon's opinion, I'm talking about how he is describing how ArenaNet is developing Guild Wars 2 with an entirely different model from what all the other MMOs are using. This fact means that Korrigan's opinion that a gaming veteran shouldn't get hyped over Guild Wars 2 is worthless because none of the other MMOs tried to change the model. This makes Korrigan's veiled insults quite laughable.

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Spookysheep posted:

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With today's announcement that blizzard is finally adding a gear appearance tab, I think their numbers will actually start to go up again.

Casuals can stay busy all the way until the next expansion just collecting all those old gear sets in order to play "dress up"

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JaconKin posted:

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Spookysheep posted:

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With today's announcement that blizzard is finally adding a gear appearance tab, I think their numbers will actually start to go up again.

Casuals can stay busy all the way until the next expansion just collecting all those old gear sets in order to play "dress up"

---

Well something that should have been added long ago. Unfortunately still no dye option it seems. Here goes what you can do with Gear in GW2 with its dye options.

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Spookysheep posted:

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JaconKin posted:

---

Spookysheep posted:

---

With today's announcement that blizzard is finally adding a gear appearance tab, I think their numbers will actually start to go up again.

Casuals can stay busy all the way until the next expansion just collecting all those old gear sets in order to play "dress up"

---

Well something that should have been added long ago. Unfortunately still no dye option it seems. Here goes what you can do with Gear in GW2 with its dye options.

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Hell, that gear even without dye looks way, way better than anything blizzard has ever designed in WoW

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JaconKin posted:

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P

Also during GW 2 Character creation you can choose what dye colors you want to have your gear, this choice will then be applied to any new gear you get, so no more clown outfits. You can still manually change the dyes still in the character screen.

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Spookysheep posted:

---

With today's announcement that blizzard is finally adding a gear appearance tab, I think their numbers will actually start to go up again.

Casuals can stay busy all the way until the next expansion just collecting all those old gear sets in order to play "dress up"

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Spookysheep posted:

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JaconKin posted:

---

P

Also during GW 2 Character creation you can choose what dye colors you want to have your gear, this choice will then be applied to any new gear you get, so no more clown outfits. You can still manually change the dyes still in the character screen.

---

That's epic win right there.

Sounds like they learned a great lesson from city of heroes.

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Eternal_Midnight posted:

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Is all the GW2 PvP in canned maps with canned skills? They seem to be touting this 'you can jump in and out of maps at any time' business for their PvP, like it's some kind of innovation.

Where is all the PvP that ISN'T predictable?

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JaconKin posted:

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Here goes a leaked map of the WvWvW map, about 1/3 of the maps actual size.



For scale purposes, it has been reported that Castle Baily in the Middle is about the same scale as Ironforge.

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Quazimortal posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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Quasi,

Opinions do not require facts, which is why they are opinions.

Jacon's opinion is that the game looks stellar.

Korrigan's is that he will reserve judgement until he can play the game.



Neither of these require "facts" to be legitimate.

Yes, Jacon has provided examples of why he holds the opinion he does, but it is still just an opinion, and no more (or less) valid than Korrigan's.

---

I'm not talking about Jacon's opinion, I'm talking about how he is describing how ArenaNet is developing Guild Wars 2 with an entirely different model from what all the other MMOs are using. This fact means that Korrigan's opinion that a gaming veteran shouldn't get hyped over Guild Wars 2 is worthless because none of the other MMOs tried to change the model. This makes Korrigan's veiled insults quite laughable.

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GutterSludge posted:

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Nice job jumping in and getting it completely wrong Jared.

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JaredKorry posted:

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I also think that, if the positions were reversed and it was Korrigan singing the praises of "The Next Big Thing", you would be all over making fun of him and taunting him for it.

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GutterSludge posted:

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JaredKorry posted:

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I also think that, if the positions were reversed and it was Korrigan singing the praises of "The Next Big Thing", you would be all over making fun of him and taunting him for it.

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Wrong, period.

Any other questions?

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Spookysheep posted:

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Anyone have a fork?

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JaredKorry posted:

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/yawn

By the way, I always get a kick out of the classic VN logic. Quasi is well known for trolling and having a hard on for Korrigan, and yet, when I call him out on it, I'm the one in the wrong. Maybe one day, Gutter, you will grow out of the need to act like a jerk. One day...

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GutterSludge posted:

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JaredKorry posted:

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/yawn

By the way, I always get a kick out of the classic VN logic. Quasi is well known for trolling and having a hard on for Korrigan, and yet, when I call him out on it, I'm the one in the wrong. Maybe one day, Gutter, you will grow out of the need to act like a jerk. One day...

---

As long as you post your drivel here, I will continue to point out that it is, in fact, drivel.

If this offends you, then it has served its purpose, particularly since you have proclaimed time and time again that you in no way want to be a part of this board community.

Given the above, your pathetic attempt at an insult is even all the more comical....as if anyone here actually gives a rat's arse what you think, or think of them.

By all means, carry on.

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JaconKin posted:

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Here goes what you can do with Gear in GW2 with its dye options.

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JaredKorry posted:

---

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Fedup23 posted:

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JaredKorry posted:

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Its still laughing! Hit it again!!

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JaredKorry posted:

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Fedup23 posted:

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JaredKorry posted:

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Its still laughing! Hit it again!!

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Oh how clever Fed! You are truly most original with your childish attempts at insults. What shall we expect next? A "your mama" joke?

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Dei_Ray_HG posted:

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All this is about a a set of shoulders and a helm?

I have to think the players are far more shallow than WoW will ever be.

I mean, just recently I spent days trying to prefect my hunters DPS. Then I spent the better part of a week working on my priests enchanting. In between I've been working on leveling a few other alts. (I have every class at L60 or above). I have fun going back into old dungeons I haven't seen in years. Sometimes with appropriate level alts, sometimes with monster 85 just to wreck havoc. I still wonder bug eyed at some of the landscape in WoW and can spend time just looking while I mine or fish or whatever.

I can sit down and find all kinds of things to do in WoW for hours on end, then come back tomorrow and do something totally different.

Do I raid. Sometimes but honestly, I've spent hours with groups, wiping over and over just trying to learn a fight. It gets old after while. Yes, it can be a challenge and exhilarating when you finally down a boss but it can be tedious and frustrating as well. I know in the back of my mind that 3 months from now I can probably come back to the same fight and it will be a piece of cake for what ever reason.

Am I gonna rage quit because I can't get a piece of armor or two? Nope. Think not.

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-Mithan- posted:

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I've said it a few times when all the retards were crying about how "easy" WotLK was:
People don't want super hard games.

Cataclysm was a pain, so I quit it a month after its release. WotLK was perfect for balance and I even got several "wellfare" epics and had a cool, powerful character. I even joined a few PUG Raids in WotLK and had a blast.


Done.

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Spookysheep posted:

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Saw a good thread on MMO champion and noticed one poster summarized what I've been seeing all over the place about why so many players are leaving WoW so quickly now:


http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/950734-WoW-Lost-300k-Subscribers-Patch-4.3-this-year-Blizzcon-2011-Tickets-Blue-Posts?p=12552758

It is BLIZZARD'S JOB to provide a game that the players want to play. In my case, as far as the game is concerned, I want to earn my gear in an environment I find fun...

In a way, you're right, I don't want to WORK for my gear. I want to PLAY the GAME, in a way I find FUN, and obtain gear as I do. I have fun in five-mans. I do not have fun in raids. I still want to have an armor set to work toward, a milestone to accomplish. This gives me incentive to play, and more importantly and more relevant, incentive to PAY blizzard.


....why in the [expletive] does that justify leaving the token requirements on the helm and shoulders of the old set? That isn't the best of the best anymore, its mediocre. It's old. But it's still locked. Similarly, they won't even make a dungeon set for 5-man players to collect. There's extra colors of the tier in the game files that goes unused; they could turn that into the "current tier 5 man dungeon set" but do they? nope. Not a single bit of incentive for the five man player.

At the end of the day, blizzard refuses to cater to the non-raider, and it's costing them in spades



It is the same argument since vanilla WoW. Most players do not like raiding but the 5 mans are universally popular. Blizzard has made it where you can only partially accomplish a new gear milestone in 5 mans, but to get helm and shoulders, they tried to force players to raid.

Players chose to cancel, probably at over 1 million now.


It is so extremely simple, how can the B team not grasp it? Players just like cool looking, matching armor sets, and they like 5 mans, but not raids.

Funny how even a could take over Blizzard at this point and turn the subscription numbers around, but the current CEO can't (and still has a job).

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Cedax posted:

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-Mithan- posted:

---

I've said it a few times when all the retards were crying about how "easy" WotLK was:
People don't want super hard games.

Cataclysm was a pain, so I quit it a month after its release. WotLK was perfect for balance and I even got several "wellfare" epics and had a cool, powerful character. I even joined a few PUG Raids in WotLK and had a blast.


Done.

---

Aye, I loved WotLK, it had a good story, it seemed like all classes were a blast. PvP zones were nice, gold was easily made if you farmed up stuff. Even the Nordic atmosphere was a blast, I love that stuff.

Now, they turned around and took most of that away, I still play, but it lacks the 'cool' factor it once had. Even the upper city zone you graduated to had a 'wow' factor. Arthas was bad ass, this goofy hinged jawed dragon however just doesn't inspire the dread or even the betrayal, for that matter anything, lol.

Ah well till Mythic decides buff bots are not good for daoc (something they will never do), I will continue for a bit longer.

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JaconKin posted:

---

Cedax posted:

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-Mithan- posted:

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I've said it a few times when all the retards were crying about how "easy" WotLK was:
People don't want super hard games.

Cataclysm was a pain, so I quit it a month after its release. WotLK was perfect for balance and I even got several "wellfare" epics and had a cool, powerful character. I even joined a few PUG Raids in WotLK and had a blast.


Done.

---

Aye, I loved WotLK, it had a good story, it seemed like all classes were a blast. PvP zones were nice, gold was easily made if you farmed up stuff. Even the Nordic atmosphere was a blast, I love that stuff.

Now, they turned around and took most of that away, I still play, but it lacks the 'cool' factor it once had. Even the upper city zone you graduated to had a 'wow' factor. Arthas was bad ass, this goofy hinged jawed dragon however just doesn't inspire the dread or even the betrayal, for that matter anything, lol.

Ah well till Mythic decides buff bots are not good for daoc (something they will never do), I will continue for a bit longer.

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Well I think part of the issue also, was that after Wrath, that ended everything that was set down in Warcraft 3. Illidain had been taken care of in BC and now Arthas Wrath. So now all of a sudden they had to cook up a new "enemy".

To tell you honestly, after the next expansion, I would rather see WoW die and have them come out with a Warcraft 4 RTS and then follow that up with a WoW 2.

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Wolfpaw_We posted:

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JaconKin posted:

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Here goes what you can do with Gear in GW2 with its dye options.

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And 5 hours after release, this is what you'll actually be seeing.

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JaconKin posted:

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The one aspect about PVP that has me excited and might actually have me playing and enjoying PVP. It is based purely on skill. There is no special PVP gear nor X stat that makes the PVP game imbalanced. All players are equal in this regard, so it boils down to what PVP should be about, skill and strategy. Not, well I need X stat to actually be able to play and have a fighting chance.

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Phexx posted:

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JaconKin posted:

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The one aspect about PVP that has me excited and might actually have me playing and enjoying PVP. It is based purely on skill. There is no special PVP gear nor X stat that makes the PVP game imbalanced. All players are equal in this regard, so it boils down to what PVP should be about, skill and strategy. Not, well I need X stat to actually be able to play and have a fighting chance.

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Are all characters bumped to the same level, with all the same skills, and identical armor for PvP?

Otherwise, this statement is simply untrue. I wish it weren't, but it's impossible unless every player who enters PvP is stripped of their gear and skills and given the identical gear and skills of every other player. There is no other way possible to absolutely balance PvP to be based solely on skill.

And frankly, that would be boring.

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JaconKin posted:

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Actually yes, all characters are bumped to max level automatically, all characters are given a set of weapons, and all armour is the same,.stats.are also like wise static.

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Spookysheep posted:

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Its so hilarious to see carebears call equalized pvp "boring".


About 50+ million console PVPers will completely disagree with you.

People who actually like PVP have been waiting for many years for an MMO that finally grasps how to do PVP.

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JaconKin posted:

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Every aspect of PVP will be based on how well you understand weapon sets.the set of skills these give you and how effective they are.against other players.

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Zero_Washu posted:

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JaconKin posted:

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Every aspect of PVP will be based on how well you understand weapon sets.the set of skills these give you and how effective they are.against other players.

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which game are you talking about GW or SW?

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Spookysheep posted:

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Its so hilarious to see carebears call equalized pvp "boring".


About 50+ million console PVPers will completely disagree with you.

People who actually like PVP have been waiting for many years for an MMO that finally grasps how to do PVP.

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Phexx posted:

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Spookysheep posted:

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Its so hilarious to see carebears call equalized pvp "boring".


About 50+ million console PVPers will completely disagree with you.

People who actually like PVP have been waiting for many years for an MMO that finally grasps how to do PVP.

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Are you referring to FPS players in your 50+ million console players? Totally different animal in my opinion, FPS and PvP in a MMORPG.

Actually that is what I was referring to. If everyone has the exact gear, stats and skills as everyone else, why PvP in a MMORPG and not just play a FPS? I'm all for the gear and stat balance, and if players are the same class, I'm in for the skill balance as well.

What I was saying was basically the only way for true balance is to make everyone an exact clone of everyone else, no matter the class you play, and that would be boring to me. The reason I play MMORPGs instead of an FPS is because I can play different classes.

So to clear up my original question, are there classes in PvP? If so, you will not have true balance. I'm not saying it will not be a great game or great PvP, simply the only way to get true balance will be to clone every player FPS style and that would be boring to me, as I like to play different classes.

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Quazimortal posted:

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Phexx posted:

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[quote=Spookysheep]Its so hilarious to see carebears call equalized pvp "boring".


About 50+ million console PVPers will completely disagree with you.

People who actually like PVP have been waiting for many years for an MMO that finally grasps how to do PVP.

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Are you referring to FPS players in your 50+ million console players? Totally different animal in my opinion, FPS and PvP in a MMORPG.

Actually that is what I was referring to. If everyone has the exact gear, stats and skills as everyone else, why PvP in a MMORPG and not just play a FPS? I'm all for the gear and stat balance, and if players are the same class, I'm in for the skill balance as well.

What I was saying was basically the only way for true balance is to make everyone an exact clone of everyone else, no matter the class you play, and that would be boring to me. The reason I play MMORPGs instead of an FPS is because I can play different classes.

So to clear up my original question, are there classes in PvP? If so, you will not have true balance. I'm not saying it will not be a great game or great PvP, simply the only way to get true balance will be to clone every player FPS style and that would be boring to me, as I like to play different classes.

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Quazimortal posted:

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WTF? Are you stupid? Have you never played a team based FPS with a class system? You can in fact achieve balance in PvP with different classes, it's called designing around the team and not 1v1.

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Quazimortal posted:

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"why PvP in a MMORPG and not just play a FPS"

Because they are two entirely different kinds of games, duh? I'm starting to think I've figured out the answer to my 'Are you stupid?' question.

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Phexx posted:

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PvP and FPS games are different. In PvP games, and in my case I am referring to MMORPGs, there are classes. Very different classes. I've no idea what "classes" there are in current FPS games since I don't play them. But in MMORPGs, as you should well know, classes are usually so different that true balance is near impossible. Not entirely I suppose, but I've never seen it in a single MMORPG since and including UO.

If GW2 can achieve that, great, I'll be looking forward to it. Until then, I prefer to base my opinion on experience rather than speculation.

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Quazimortal posted:

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If you haven't played an FPS in that long why would you even bring it up in an argument? You argue points you know things about, not things you know jack about. Amazing...

And the fact STILL remains that balancing PvP with a class system is COMPLETELY possible which has been proven in several class based FPS games. So really your argument holds absolutely zero basis so perhaps you should exit this conversation before you make even more of a fool out of yourself.

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Spookysheep posted:

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About 50+ million console PVPers will completely disagree with you.

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Phexx posted:

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Are you referring to FPS players in your 50+ million console players? Totally different animal in my opinion, FPS and PvP in a MMORPG.

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Quazimortal posted:

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why PvP in a MMORPG and not just play a FPS

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Quazimortal posted:

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WTF? Are you stupid?

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Phexx posted:

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Oh well, my bad, lesson learned.

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Quazimortal posted:

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Phexx posted:

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Oh well, my bad, lesson learned.

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You learned how to follow conversations properly? Good for you!

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